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Fulfilled.
1 Thess 4:13-18 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies. In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).
#1 - Paul teaches that 1 Thess 4:13-18 is a first-century event that both he and the Thessalonians should expect to live unto (and Paul could not err).
#2 - Paul explicitly teaches that only the dead were to be resurrected, not the living. Thus, the doctrine is always referred to as the resurrection of THE DEAD. It is an event for the dead
#3 - Paul explicitly states that the living will not be raised at that same time, but are to join the dead some time later in the heavenlies ("air").
="Postvieww, post: 69559075, member: 359146"]Did "Every Eye" see Jesus ascend?
Word games? Cannot the like manner refer to the method in which He left? He was taken up and a cloud received Him out of their sight Acts 1:9. When He returns “behold , He cometh with the clouds” is just the reverse. No every eye didn’t see Him leave ( those present did) when He comes again every eye will see Him return, no contradiction.
Let’s apply your logic to your own statement. You said “For sure, Acts 26:12-18 and Acts 7:54-58 stand as direct fulfillments of Acts 1:11". In Acts 26 did anyone other than Paul witness the light from heaven? Paul heard His voice, is there any mention of Jesus shouting back from the cloud as he left in Acts 1? Did Paul say anything about a cloud in his testimony? Did Paul say Jesus went up or down? Now look at Acts 7 Did Stephen see Jesus go up or down? Did he see a cloud? All he saw was the Glory of God and Jesus standing on His right hand. You have not held yourself to the same standard you impose on me. You claim Acts 7 & 26 are in fulfillment of Acts 1 which tells us He will return in like manner as He left, but there is no “like manner “ in the passages you site.
You must believe yes if you assert His return Will be "in like manner" as the ascension.
No I must not.
Did Jesus ascend "in Great power and Glory, with Angelic armies in tow and reward every man according to His works at that time?"
You must say yes if you assert His return will be "in Like manner" as the ascension.
You do not hold yourself to this standard.
Fair enough. Like I said, It's a wash.C'mon, It's demonstrably false that you Believe His return will be in exact like manner as the ascension.
You used the word “exact” I didn’t.
You simply pick and choose whichever attributes of the ascension will be "in like manner as" the return that best suit your previously held view, and completely disregard the rest, in the complete absence of ANY scriptural instruction to do so.
Just like you did with Acts 7 and 26.
Q:How Did the angels promise the disciples Jesus would "come"
A: In like manner as they saw Him go "into Heaven".
He ascended up INTO the cloud and when He went INTO the cloud He was out of their sight.
How did Jesus enter heaven?
Hidden from their eyes by a cloud. (Acts 1:9)
This is the same tactic I have encountered in the pre –post debate. Every passage that describes the same event in scripture DOES NOT have to be identical in every detail to be speaking of the same event. The superscription on the cross is worded differently in in all 4 gospels yet they describe the same event.
Now, about Matt 21:33-45....?
Here is what I said in post #198
“Matt:21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
Short answer above verse tells us who it was directly for in that sense fullfilled. As with other parables there are truths that can be applied elsewhere . This "coming "would be His first physical coming.
When I ask for scripture yet unfulfilled I am referring to His second physical coming for every eye to see.”
I don’t know what you are looking for here. I went back and reread your response in post #201. Are you trying to get me to agree the coming in the parable vs 40 is the same as Revelation 1:7 and has already happened? If so that’s not going to happen. I already said in post #203 “I believe Jesus can appear at anytime He chooses to anyone He chooses”. Show me a 2nd witness, verse to prove Jesus “came” in or around 70 AD.
Now if you will indulge me I have a few (undetermined number) questions.
Fulfilled.
1 Thess 4:13-18 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies. In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).
#1 - Paul teaches that 1 Thess 4:13-18 is a first-century event that both he and the Thessalonians should expect to live unto (and Paul could not err).
#2 - Paul explicitly teaches that only the dead were to be resurrected, not the living. Thus, the doctrine is always referred to as the resurrection of THE DEAD. It is an event for the dead
#3 - Paul explicitly states that the living will not be raised at that same time, but are to join the dead some time later in the heavenlies ("air").
Parousia70 post #243
Do you really think the creator of the universe cannot figure out a way to make this happen?
Well, later today,Tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, decade, century, etc, Jesus will come (Future) in this way somewhere for sure:Now my next question is are there any yet unfulfilled coming of the Lord passages?
From post #173
As A Catholic, I still Hold to a future resurrection.
I believe that too. What scripture do base that belief on?
It seems all of the passages I base my beliefs on you declare fulfilled.
What is the end game here, does this old earth just carry on indefinitely?
I don’t see that in the text. Do you make that leap from “we “ in verse 17? Did Paul not die before 70 AD?
#2 - Paul explicitly teaches that only the dead were to be resurrected, not the living. Thus, the doctrine is always referred to as the resurrection of THE DEAD. It is an event for the dead
Yes,but those living will be changed at that same event.
#3 - Paul explicitly states that the living will not be raised at that same time, but are to join the dead some time later in the heavenlies ("air").
Since you didn’t define what sometime later means to you I’ll just stick with what Paul said. Both of the events happen at the last trump, 1 Corin 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
There is no indication there is any significate period of time here, one event ,dead first and per 1 Thess 4:17 we that are alive and remain will be caught up to t meet the Lord in the air. As in 1 Corin this is at the trump of God. I get the impression you are trying to insert some lengthy time period in between 1 Thess 4: 16 & 17. If that’s the case nothing in the text backs that up, if I misunderstood your intent please clarify.
Except that what it does not say is that Jesus will do it again and again and again! That is, He will return once and for all to raise the dead and then (mere moments later) the living.Fulfilled.
1 Thess 4:13-18 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies. In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).
Where does he teach this?#1 - Paul teaches that 1 Thess 4:13-18 is a first-century event that both he and the Thessalonians should expect to live unto (and Paul could not err).
"together with them"#2 - Paul explicitly teaches that only the dead were to be resurrected, not the living. Thus, the doctrine is always referred to as the resurrection of THE DEAD. It is an event for the dead
Show me 'some time later' from the text? It's just an order thing. Dead rise, then we meet. It's about hope for loved ones that is also hope for us, our gospel hope that the Lord will return and put an end to death and suffering and punish sin. This is pretty standard reformed evangelical teaching, and not controversial at all! Where I take issue with many on these eschatology forums is that they think they can predict it: that the book of Revelation is not just a sermon for suffering Christians, but a timetable that is only relevant to the last generation. It's not. Passages like Matt 24 are choc-full of apocalyptic imagery, and could be about gospel events or could be a bit of both: why the temple is being destroyed, and how the Lord's ultimate victorious return will be universal and inescapable and obvious, unlike the silly Messiah-pretenders around in Jesus day and basically with us till the end of time.#3 - Paul explicitly states that the living will not be raised at that same time, but are to join the dead some time later in the heavenlies ("air").
It's an enormous leap! You cannot crush the obvious meaning of the passage just by forcing Greek prepositions to say things they don't actually say. The obvious meaning below is that the Lord will return, rebellion to him will end, and a final Judgement Day is actually a thing!It's no Leap.
"together with them"
This is an all encompassing event that specifically includes the dead and the living.
I don't know where you get 1000 years from? What are you talking about now?I'm sorry but your logic just does not work. Following your logic we would have to conclude that if the dead rose to heaven 1st then 1000 years later the living were caught up to heaven, there would be some gulf between them for by your logic that thousand year time difference in raisings would prevent them from ending up "together" in heaven.
Do you really think the Creator of the Universe could not figure out a way to have the events in and around 70AD stand as fulfillment of these things? especially when the language He used to prophesy of them can be found used over and over to describe past coming judgments of God on nations throughout the OT?
Well, later today,Tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, decade, century, etc, Jesus will come (Future) in this way somewhere for sure:
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
None primarily.
I base it on The Nicene Creed.
Now, That being said, The Old Testament Temple--which was itself designed to be a microcosm of the created universe--may demonstrate, by its destruction, that the created cosmos will be brought to a new consummation in our future. I have found no scriptural reason to rule out this possibility, and that Event could rightly be called "the Coming of the Lord" For sure, whatever changes God may have in store for the cosmos, the time and details have not been disclosed to men (Deut 29:29).
I would hope The foundation of your belief in Christ is the sure and certain scriptural testimony of His Birth, Ministry, Death and Resurrection, of which I hope we can both agree are ALL "fulfilled prophesies". So the notion that a affirming a prophesy has been Fulfilled would somehow undermine your belief as a Christian seems absurd to me.
Do not Fulfilled prophesies stand for us as the very evidence of the divine origins of Christianity?
Well, scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)
That said, OUR purpose is to subdue kingdoms and establish righteousness as the Hebrews 11 heroes did:
Hebrews 11:6, 32-33
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him...for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions
The Christian Church walks in this great heritage of unstoppable faith just like our Hebrews 11 brothers and sisters. We are in process of subduing kingdoms, establishing righteousness, and asserting Christ's dominion over all nations through the same faith of David, Samuel, Joshua, and Moses had. Nothing can stop us (Matthew 16:18-19).
Science teaches us that the universe is not just expanding, but accelerating. We used to think we had about 100 trillion years or something before entropy sucked all the life out of everything, what we call the heat death of the universe. Now the universe itself could 'pop' before the end of our sun in about just a billion years! As the universe expands so does the amount of dark energy, accelerating the process. Eventually everything will be moving so fast apart from everything else that it will 'pop' in the Big Rip. The sun will appear to go out or disappear, as it accelerates away from us faster than the speed of light! Then the earth will rip apart, then eventually what's left of our bodies, then the sub-atomic particles themselves will all be ripped apart. So much for this lasting forever! It's a GOOD thing that the bible actually isn't Full Preterist, and admits that creation groans in expectation of what is coming. When the Lord returns and heaven and earth wed, we're not the only things that will be saved. Physical reality will be as well: God dwelling with us, in a fixed up universe!Well, scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)
Does the time gap matter?I don't know where you get 1000 years from? What are you talking about now?
Parousia70 post #243
Postview blue
#246 Do you really think the creator of the universe cannot figure out a way to make this happen?
Do you really think the Creator of the Universe could not figure out a way to have the events in and around 70AD stand as fulfillment of these things? especially when the language He used to prophesy of them can be found used over and over to describe past coming judgments of God on nations throughout the OT?
You did not answer my question but we have made so much progress here I’ll let this one slide.
From these last few posts between you and I and you and eclipsenow it appears he is a partial preterist and you are a full preterist. If I am wrong in that assumption please feel free to set the record straight.
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
I believe this just as strongly as you do but this is absolutely not a coming of the Lord as referred to in many of the scriptures we have discussed. This is a maneuver to make your doctrine work where it falls apart under the scrutiny of scripture.
Now the “Nicene Creed” is on par with scripture?
Quote from the “Nicene Creed”
“And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."
I would venture to say most believers who recite this creed have a different view of the resurrection than you.
I see nothing in this creed to support your lack of belief in a bodily resurrection of the righteous dead.
Yup. It's why I'm not a full preterist.The creed says “we look for” that is yet future.
Do not Fulfilled prophesies stand for us as the very evidence of the divine origins of Christianity?
Many of the prophesies you claim are fulfilled are not.
Well, scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)
You failed to harmonize the above scriptures with 2 Peter 2:10, Revelation21:1. His kingdom will never pass away but this earth and system as it stands today will.
Jesus has a physical body,
First, that's not my argument! I didn't argue against the destination being the same, but the timing. There's no rational reason to attribute any vast length of time to the word 'then'. It can simply mean 'next'.Does the time gap matter?
Fine. You pick an amount of time... 100 years, 1000 years, 2000 years 5000 years, it makes no difference to me.
Show how your assertion that ANY extended length of time between the dead rising and the living being caught up PREVENTS the two groups from winding up TOGETHER, since that seems to be your objection to my interpretation of that passage.
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