[MOVED] End of the world predictions are a dime a dozen and always wrong. :)

[parousia70]

Very soon you'll see.

Do you mean "soon" the same way the Infallible Apostles meant it? or are you using some sort of different, fallible definition?

 

[Postvieww]

Fulfilled.

1 Thess 4:13-18 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies. In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

#1 - Paul teaches that 1 Thess 4:13-18 is a first-century event that both he and the Thessalonians should expect to live unto (and Paul could not err).

#2 - Paul explicitly teaches that only the dead were to be resurrected, not the living. Thus, the doctrine is always referred to as the resurrection of THE DEAD. It is an event for the dead

#3 - Paul explicitly states that the living will not be raised at that same time, but are to join the dead some time later in the heavenlies ("air").

Eclipsenow appreciates your help he passed twice on answering the question. Now if you will respond to post #212 we can move on to discuss this one.

 

[parousia70]

="Postvieww, post: 69559075, member: 359146"]Did "Every Eye" see Jesus ascend?

Word games? Cannot the like manner refer to the method in which He left? He was taken up and a cloud received Him out of their sight Acts 1:9. When He returns “behold , He cometh with the clouds” is just the reverse. No every eye didn’t see Him leave ( those present did) when He comes again every eye will see Him return, no contradiction.

Let’s apply your logic to your own statement. You said “For sure, Acts 26:12-18 and Acts 7:54-58 stand as direct fulfillments of Acts 1:11". In Acts 26 did anyone other than Paul witness the light from heaven? Paul heard His voice, is there any mention of Jesus shouting back from the cloud as he left in Acts 1? Did Paul say anything about a cloud in his testimony? Did Paul say Jesus went up or down? Now look at Acts 7 Did Stephen see Jesus go up or down? Did he see a cloud? All he saw was the Glory of God and Jesus standing on His right hand. You have not held yourself to the same standard you impose on me. You claim Acts 7 & 26 are in fulfillment of Acts 1 which tells us He will return in like manner as He left, but there is no “like manner “ in the passages you site.

You must believe yes if you assert His return Will be "in like manner" as the ascension.

No I must not.

Did Jesus ascend "in Great power and Glory, with Angelic armies in tow and reward every man according to His works at that time?"

You must say yes if you assert His return will be "in Like manner" as the ascension.

You do not hold yourself to this standard.

Neither of us do, so It's a wash. That's my point.

C'mon, It's demonstrably false that you Believe His return will be in exact like manner as the ascension.

You used the word “exact” I didn’t.

You simply pick and choose whichever attributes of the ascension will be "in like manner as" the return that best suit your previously held view, and completely disregard the rest, in the complete absence of ANY scriptural instruction to do so.

Just like you did with Acts 7 and 26.

Fair enough. Like I said, It's a wash.

Q:How Did the angels promise the disciples Jesus would "come"

A: In like manner as they saw Him go "into Heaven".

He ascended up INTO the cloud and when He went INTO the cloud He was out of their sight.

How did Jesus enter heaven?

Hidden from their eyes by a cloud. (Acts 1:9)

This is the same tactic I have encountered in the pre –post debate. Every passage that describes the same event in scripture DOES NOT have to be identical in every detail to be speaking of the same event. The superscription on the cross is worded differently in in all 4 gospels yet they describe the same event.

Ok, and you believe the Only attribute that will be in like manner as the ascension is the fleshly decent of a 5'8" (or so) Human Jesus upon the Mount of Olives... forget about the rest of it, right? Forget about the conundrum of HOW someone like me who lives in Portland Oregon being able to "SEE" a single solitary Human being descend from a cloud over Jerusalem Israel.

Now, about Matt 21:33-45....?

Here is what I said in post #198

“Matt:21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

Short answer above verse tells us who it was directly for in that sense fullfilled. As with other parables there are truths that can be applied elsewhere . This "coming "would be His first physical coming.

Demonstrably untrue, and unrebutted.

The "Coming of the Lord of the Vineyard to destroy the wicked Husbandmen "happens AFTER the Son is Killed so this coming can not be referring to the incarnation, virgin birth, etc....
Again, you have the cart before the Horse.

When I ask for scripture yet unfulfilled I am referring to His second physical coming for every eye to see.”

I already gave you the scriptural answer to that

I don’t know what you are looking for here. I went back and reread your response in post #201. Are you trying to get me to agree the coming in the parable vs 40 is the same as Revelation 1:7 and has already happened? If so that’s not going to happen. I already said in post #203 “I believe Jesus can appear at anytime He chooses to anyone He chooses”. Show me a 2nd witness, verse to prove Jesus “came” in or around 70 AD.

Matt 21:33-45 is enough proof anyone should need of the Coming of the Lord of the Vineyard to destroy the wicked husbandmen... that you choose not to agree isn't my problem.

Now if you will indulge me I have a few (undetermined number) questions.

Revelation 19:11-16 fulfilled or not?
Fulfilled

Revelation 11:15-19 fulfilled or not?
Fulfilled

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 fulfilled or not?
Fulfilled

2 Thessalonians 2:1 fulfilled or not?
Fulfilled

 

[parousia70]

Now, please provide an extra biblical witness that this event King David describes of his defeat of Saul and his armies happened:

"Smoke went up out of [God's] nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils." (2 Sam 22:8-16)

Where is the extra Biblical Historical record of these things happening to the earth, sky, etc... surely somebody besides David saw God's Nostrils blowing this smoke and Firing arrows, the wind growing actual wings that God rode the cherub on, the heavens being "bowed" and entire foundations of the whole earth being laid bare by God's breath at that time, yes?

 

[Postvieww]

Fulfilled.

1 Thess 4:13-18 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies. In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

#1 - Paul teaches that 1 Thess 4:13-18 is a first-century event that both he and the Thessalonians should expect to live unto (and Paul could not err).

#2 - Paul explicitly teaches that only the dead were to be resurrected, not the living. Thus, the doctrine is always referred to as the resurrection of THE DEAD. It is an event for the dead

#3 - Paul explicitly states that the living will not be raised at that same time, but are to join the dead some time later in the heavenlies ("air").

Parousia said:

Eclipsenow appreciates your help he passed twice on answering the question. Now if you will respond to post #212 we can move on to discuss this one.

Fulfilled.

1 Thess 4:13-18 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies.

There is nothing in the text to suggest this. The O.T. dead were not in Christ. Verse 14 says “them also which sleep in Jesus, verse 16 says “the dead in Christ” ,there is no allusion to O.T. saints in this passage. Even if one includes the O.T. saints in this resurrection your statement excludes those Paul included, the “dead in Christ”. Those alive in Christ at that time will be caught up as well.

In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

Where is the mention of hades here, after Christ’s ascension the righteous dead are in His presence upon death not in hades 1 Corinthians 5:8 , Revelation 6:9, Revelation 7:13-17.

#1 - Paul teaches that 1 Thess 4:13-18 is a first-century event that both he and the Thessalonians should expect to live unto (and Paul could not err).

I don’t see that in the text. Do you make that leap from “we “ in verse 17? Did Paul not die before 70 AD?

#2 - Paul explicitly teaches that only the dead were to be resurrected, not the living. Thus, the doctrine is always referred to as the resurrection of THE DEAD. It is an event for the dead

Yes,but those living will be changed at that same event.

#3 - Paul explicitly states that the living will not be raised at that same time, but are to join the dead some time later in the heavenlies ("air").

Since you didn’t define what sometime later means to you I’ll just stick with what Paul said. Both of the events happen at the last trump, 1 Corin 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

There is no indication there is any significate period of time here, one event ,dead first and per 1 Thess 4:17 we that are alive and remain will be caught up to t meet the Lord in the air. As in 1 Corin this is at the trump of God. I get the impression you are trying to insert some lengthy time period in between 1 Thess 4: 16 & 17. If that’s the case nothing in the text backs that up, if I misunderstood your intent please clarify.

 

[Postvieww]

Parousia70 post #243

Ok, and you believe the Only attribute that will be in like manner as the ascension is the fleshly decent of a 5'8" (or so) Human Jesus upon the Mount of Olives... forget about the rest of it, right? Forget about the conundrum of HOW someone like me who lives in Portland Oregon being able to "SEE" a single solitary Human being descend from a cloud over Jerusalem Israel.


Do you really think the creator of the universe cannot figure out a way to make this happen?

From previous post:
"Now if you will indulge me I have a few (undetermined number) questions.

Revelation 19:11-16 fulfilled or not?

Fulfilled


Revelation 11:15-19 fulfilled or not?

Fulfilled


1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 fulfilled or not?

Fulfilled


2 Thessalonians 2:1 fulfilled or not?

Fulfilled"

Thanks for your straight answers.

Now my next question is are there any yet unfulfilled coming of the Lord passages?


From post #173

As A Catholic, I still Hold to a future resurrection.

I believe that too. What scripture do base that belief on?

Do you believe Jesus in His flesh and bone body will literally set foot upon this earth in our future?

It seems all of the passages I base my beliefs on you declare fulfilled. What is the end game here, does this old earth just carry on indefinitely?

 

[parousia70]

Parousia70 post #243

Do you really think the creator of the universe cannot figure out a way to make this happen?

Do you really think the Creator of the Universe could not figure out a way to have the events in and around 70AD stand as fulfillment of these things? especially when the language He used to prophesy of them can be found used over and over to describe past coming judgments of God on nations throughout the OT?

Now my next question is are there any yet unfulfilled coming of the Lord passages?

Well, later today,Tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, decade, century, etc, Jesus will come (Future) in this way somewhere for sure:

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

From post #173

As A Catholic, I still Hold to a future resurrection.

I believe that too. What scripture do base that belief on?

None primarily.
I base it on The Nicene Creed.

Now, That being said, The Old Testament Temple--which was itself designed to be a microcosm of the created universe--may demonstrate, by its destruction, that the created cosmos will be brought to a new consummation in our future. I have found no scriptural reason to rule out this possibility, and that Event could rightly be called "the Coming of the Lord" For sure, whatever changes God may have in store for the cosmos, the time and details have not been disclosed to men (Deut 29:29).

It seems all of the passages I base my beliefs on you declare fulfilled.

I would hope The foundation of your belief in Christ is the sure and certain scriptural testimony of His Birth, Ministry, Death and Resurrection, of which I hope we can both agree are ALL "fulfilled prophesies". So the notion that a affirming a prophesy has been Fulfilled would somehow undermine your belief as a Christian seems absurd to me.

Do not Fulfilled prophesies stand for us as the very evidence of the divine origins of Christianity?

What is the end game here, does this old earth just carry on indefinitely?

Well, scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)

That said, OUR purpose is to subdue kingdoms and establish righteousness as the Hebrews 11 heroes did:

Hebrews 11:6, 32-33
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him...for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions

The Christian Church walks in this great heritage of unstoppable faith just like our Hebrews 11 brothers and sisters. We are in process of subduing kingdoms, establishing righteousness, and asserting Christ's dominion over all nations through the same faith of David, Samuel, Joshua, and Moses had. Nothing can stop us (Matthew 16:18-19).

 

[parousia70]

I don’t see that in the text. Do you make that leap from “we “ in verse 17? Did Paul not die before 70 AD?

It's no Leap.
The Thessalonicans, who were under a persecution (1 Thess 2:14-16; Acts 16:5-9), had their persecution removed by Christ via His coming. St. Paul tells them: "We boast about...your patience and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which you endure...It is a righteous thing with God to repay affliction to those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those who don't know God, to those who don't obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus (2 Thess 1:4-9). So we see that their persecution was ended by Christ's visitation.

#2 - Paul explicitly teaches that only the dead were to be resurrected, not the living. Thus, the doctrine is always referred to as the resurrection of THE DEAD. It is an event for the dead

Yes,but those living will be changed at that same event.

Can I assume that you understand Paul's link between the victory over death and the removal of the Law of Moses (1 Cor 15:55-56)? Do you follow that Paul believed resurrection of the dead would occur in his generation and that "The Dead" Paul was talking about were in Hades at that time (the place of the O.T. dead) and not Heaven or hell? If so, it's easier to proceed. I'll assume you will say "yes" if only for the sake of moving to an explanation of HOW.

Eternal life was granted to ALL the saints at AD 70 (both the living and the dead). Jesus said that eternal life was going to arrive at "the age to come" (Luke 18:30). That was spoken by Jesus during the Old Testament period and looked ahead to the New Covenant Age. And so we see the saints of the last days period of the Old Testament Economy still awaiting eternal life to come (Titus 1:2; Titus 3:7; Jude 1:21; 1 Jn 2:25; Mark 10:30). The destruction of the Temple would mark the "end of the Old Covenant Age" (Matt 24:3), which is when eternal life would be granted in fullness to the Church (Luke 18:30).

Paul's teaching on the granting of eternal life to the Church at the very close of the Old Covenant Era shows that it would impact two camps of saints: (1)The Dead and (2) the Living. The entire Church was to be changed by this bestowal of eternal life from Jesus, but only THE DEAD were to be "raised" (1 Cor 15:52; 1 Thess 4:16). That is, of course, why the teaching is called the "Resurrection of the dead."

1 Peter 1:5; Rom 8:21-25; Titus 1:2; 1 Jn 2:25). This "change" for THE DEAD included their getting to exit Hades to go to their eternal inheritance in Heaven (Heb 10:34-39; 1 Cor 15:55-56; 1 Peter 1:3-5; Rev 20:12-15; Daniel 12:13).

So the living did not become vampires when eternal life was granted to the Church (the change); but they did become the fully adopted and manifested sons of God (Romans 8:14-19) and recipients of the redemption/salvation. All the New Covenant blessings were fully granted and the Law curse was gone from God's people. The Church of the living has labored under a New Covenant ever since -- the "change" is as different as the two Covenant dispensations themselves.

The O.T. dead saints did not become vampires at the time eternal life was granted to the Church either; but they did in a blink of an eye exit the hadean realm and enter Heaven to be in their immortal, eternal inheritance with the Blessed Trinity (Heb 10:34-39; 1 Peter 1:3-5; Daniel 12:13).

#3 - Paul explicitly states that the living will not be raised at that same time, but are to join the dead some time later in the heavenlies ("air").

Since you didn’t define what sometime later means to you I’ll just stick with what Paul said. Both of the events happen at the last trump, 1 Corin 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

There is no indication there is any significate period of time here, one event ,dead first and per 1 Thess 4:17 we that are alive and remain will be caught up to t meet the Lord in the air. As in 1 Corin this is at the trump of God. I get the impression you are trying to insert some lengthy time period in between 1 Thess 4: 16 & 17. If that’s the case nothing in the text backs that up, if I misunderstood your intent please clarify.

Let's start with the first word in the verses -the word "then." This is the Greek word epeita. Normally, when a sequence of events is described, the simple word eita "then" is used. Eita is best translated as "at that time" or "next". Eita is used to indicate an immediate sequence. We see this in:
John 19:26-27 (NKJV) When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, "Woman, behold your son!" 27 Then (eita)He said to the disciple, "Behold your mother!" And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.

This is a series of events - one immediately after the other.

But in our text, the Greek word is not eita but epeita, which is essentially the same Greek word with an "epi" prefix. This has the effect of affixing the word "after" to the word "then", and the best translation becomes "after then", "after that", or "after that time",and thereby doesn't include the idea of right after.

Let's look at some other uses of epeita to get a clearer idea of its meaning:
Galatians 1:18 (NKJV) Then (epeita) after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days.

In this case, the word "then" involved at least three years later.
Galatians 1:21 (NKJV) Afterward (epeita) I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.

Galatians 2:1 (NKJV) Then (epeita) after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me.

Epeita here involves fourteen years.
1 Corinthians 15:23 (NKJV) But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward (epeita) those who are Christ's at His coming.

Epeita here is referring to a period of forty years. The idea is: "what came at some time afterwards, after that time, not at that time."

Now look at 1 Cor 15:5-8:
1 Corinthians 15:5-8 (NKJV) and that He was seen by Cephas, then (eita) by the twelve. 6 After that (epeita) He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that (epeita) He was seen by James, then (eita) by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

We see in this passage that both eita and epeita are used. In verse 15:5, we see eita, indicating that the twelve (the original apostles) saw Him immediately after Peter did, the same day. In verse 15:6, epeita is used meaning: "after that time", because the 500 didn't see Him until later. Verse 15:7, again uses epeita, meaning that some time after the 500 saw him, He appeared to James. Next, the reference is that immediately after appearing to James, He appeared to all the apostles.

The point is, that the form of the word for "then"used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is not the form eita, meaning: "right after", but the epeita, meaning: "after that time."
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV) Then (after that time) we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

These are not simultaneous events.

 

[eclipsenow]

Fulfilled.

1 Thess 4:13-18 is a discussion of when the O.T. dead would escape Hades/Sheol and be united to Christ in the heavenlies. In short, Paul says that their release from Hades was about to happen, as the impending historic change of the covenants (Heb 8:13/2 Cor 3:6-11) was to be marked by the Temple's profanation/desecration (2 Thess 2:3-4/Matt 23:33-24:2) and God's wrath on their disobedient Jewish countrymen (1 Thess 2:15-16/Mt 23:33-38/Acts 3:22-24).

Except that what it does not say is that Jesus will do it again and again and again! That is, He will return once and for all to raise the dead and then (mere moments later) the living.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.​

#1 - Paul teaches that 1 Thess 4:13-18 is a first-century event that both he and the Thessalonians should expect to live unto (and Paul could not err).

Where does he teach this?

#2 - Paul explicitly teaches that only the dead were to be resurrected, not the living. Thus, the doctrine is always referred to as the resurrection of THE DEAD. It is an event for the dead

"together with them"
This is an all encompassing event that specifically includes the dead and the living.

#3 - Paul explicitly states that the living will not be raised at that same time, but are to join the dead some time later in the heavenlies ("air").

Show me 'some time later' from the text? It's just an order thing. Dead rise, then we meet. It's about hope for loved ones that is also hope for us, our gospel hope that the Lord will return and put an end to death and suffering and punish sin. This is pretty standard reformed evangelical teaching, and not controversial at all! Where I take issue with many on these eschatology forums is that they think they can predict it: that the book of Revelation is not just a sermon for suffering Christians, but a timetable that is only relevant to the last generation. It's not. Passages like Matt 24 are choc-full of apocalyptic imagery, and could be about gospel events or could be a bit of both: why the temple is being destroyed, and how the Lord's ultimate victorious return will be universal and inescapable and obvious, unlike the silly Messiah-pretenders around in Jesus day and basically with us till the end of time.

 

[eclipsenow]

It's no Leap.

It's an enormous leap! You cannot crush the obvious meaning of the passage just by forcing Greek prepositions to say things they don't actually say. The obvious meaning below is that the Lord will return, rebellion to him will end, and a final Judgement Day is actually a thing!

5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. 11 To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, 12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

Parousia continued:

In verse 15:6, epeita is used meaning: "after that time", because the 500 didn't see Him until later. Verse 15:7, again uses epeita, meaning that some time after the 500 saw him, He appeared to James. Next, the reference is that immediately after appearing to James, He appeared to all the apostles.

The point is, that the form of the word for "then"used in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is not the form eita, meaning: "right after", but the epeita, meaning: "after that time."​

You cannot force epeita to always mean "after that time" in the sense of a significant amount of time later. Sure, there are points in the New Testament where it is used like this. But Strong's shows that it is also much like our preposition 'then': only context can tell you how much time later. If I'm talking about longer term events like the fall of the Roman empire, I might say something like the agricultural output started to decline as the decent topsoils eroded into the Mediterranean, then there was an ongoing period of civil war after Caesar died. These are obviously long-term events. But if discussing a fight scene, it's obviously an instantaneous event, a preposition used to order things that are happening very fast. "He punched Jack in the mouth, then Jack spun back and crashed through the window."

James 3:17 shows how it can also be used as a list, as things that are simply in an order of events or subjects, with no time even being in mind!

17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.​

Here is Strong's on 1899épeita

1899épeita (an adverb composed of 1909/epí, "on, fitting" and 1534/eíta, a primitive particle meaning "then, to continue on") – properly, only then (emphasizing what precedes is a necessary precursor).
http://biblehub.com/greek/1899.htm​

 

[parousia70]

Tell me your view then, of why Paul taught that the dead would rise first? What is the point Paul is making in emphasizing that significant difference to his audience if he essentially meant "at the same time", as you insist he did? Why is it important that the dead are raised first?

 

[parousia70]

"together with them"
This is an all encompassing event that specifically includes the dead and the living.

I'm sorry but your logic just does not work. Following your logic we would have to conclude that if the dead rose to heaven 1st then 1000 years later the living were caught up to heaven, there would be some gulf between them for by your logic that thousand year time difference in raisings would prevent them from ending up "together" in heaven.

 

[eclipsenow]

I'm sorry but your logic just does not work. Following your logic we would have to conclude that if the dead rose to heaven 1st then 1000 years later the living were caught up to heaven, there would be some gulf between them for by your logic that thousand year time difference in raisings would prevent them from ending up "together" in heaven.

I don't know where you get 1000 years from? What are you talking about now?

 

[Postvieww]

Do you really think the Creator of the Universe could not figure out a way to have the events in and around 70AD stand as fulfillment of these things? especially when the language He used to prophesy of them can be found used over and over to describe past coming judgments of God on nations throughout the OT?


Well, later today,Tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, decade, century, etc, Jesus will come (Future) in this way somewhere for sure:

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”




None primarily.
I base it on The Nicene Creed.

Now, That being said, The Old Testament Temple--which was itself designed to be a microcosm of the created universe--may demonstrate, by its destruction, that the created cosmos will be brought to a new consummation in our future. I have found no scriptural reason to rule out this possibility, and that Event could rightly be called "the Coming of the Lord" For sure, whatever changes God may have in store for the cosmos, the time and details have not been disclosed to men (Deut 29:29).



I would hope The foundation of your belief in Christ is the sure and certain scriptural testimony of His Birth, Ministry, Death and Resurrection, of which I hope we can both agree are ALL "fulfilled prophesies". So the notion that a affirming a prophesy has been Fulfilled would somehow undermine your belief as a Christian seems absurd to me.

Do not Fulfilled prophesies stand for us as the very evidence of the divine origins of Christianity?



Well, scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)

That said, OUR purpose is to subdue kingdoms and establish righteousness as the Hebrews 11 heroes did:

Hebrews 11:6, 32-33
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him...for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions

The Christian Church walks in this great heritage of unstoppable faith just like our Hebrews 11 brothers and sisters. We are in process of subduing kingdoms, establishing righteousness, and asserting Christ's dominion over all nations through the same faith of David, Samuel, Joshua, and Moses had. Nothing can stop us (Matthew 16:18-19).

Parousia70 post #243

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#246 Do you really think the creator of the universe cannot figure out a way to make this happen?

Do you really think the Creator of the Universe could not figure out a way to have the events in and around 70AD stand as fulfillment of these things? especially when the language He used to prophesy of them can be found used over and over to describe past coming judgments of God on nations throughout the OT?

You did not answer my question but we have made so much progress here I’ll let this one slide.

#246 Now my next question is are there any yet unfulfilled coming of the Lord passages?

Well, later today,Tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, decade, century, etc, Jesus will come (Future) in this way somewhere for sure:

Since you didn’t directly answer my question from #246 “Do you believe Jesus in His flesh and bone body will literally set foot upon this earth in our future?” I’ll take the above as your answer. Truth is you do not believe in a literal physical, in His flesh and bone body return of Jesus to this earth. From these last few posts between you and I and you and eclipsenow it appears he is a partial preterist and you are a full preterist. If I am wrong in that assumption please feel free to set the record straight.

Matthew 18:20

For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

I believe this just as strongly as you do but this is absolutely not a coming of the Lord as referred to in many of the scriptures we have discussed. This is a maneuver to make your doctrine work where it falls apart under the scrutiny of scripture.

From post #173

As A Catholic, I still Hold to a future resurrection.

Post # 246 I believe that too. What scripture do base that belief on?

None primarily.

I base it on The Nicene Creed.

Now the “Nicene Creed” is on par with scripture?

Quote from the “Nicene Creed”

“And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

I would venture to say most believers who recite this creed have a different view of the resurrection than you. I see nothing in this creed to support your lack of belief in a bodily resurrection of the righteous dead. The creed says “we look for” that is yet future.

Now, That being said, The Old Testament Temple--which was itself designed to be a microcosm of the created universe--may demonstrate, by its destruction, that the created cosmos will be brought to a new consummation in our future. I have found no scriptural reason to rule out this possibility, and that Event could rightly be called "the Coming of the Lord" For sure, whatever changes God may have in store for the cosmos, the time and details have not been disclosed to men (Deut 29:29).

There may a glimmer of hope for you left.

Post3 246 It seems all of the passages I base my beliefs on you declare fulfilled.


I would hope The foundation of your belief in Christ is the sure and certain scriptural testimony of His Birth, Ministry, Death and Resurrection, of which I hope we can both agree are ALL "fulfilled prophesies". So the notion that a affirming a prophesy has been Fulfilled would somehow undermine your belief as a Christian seems absurd to me.

Whatever would make you think my belief in Christ would be undermined by a belief system I reject as false? We do agree on the testimony of His Birth, Death, Ministry and Resurrection.

Do not Fulfilled prophesies stand for us as the very evidence of the divine origins of Christianity?

Many of the prophesies you claim are fulfilled are not.

Post #246 What is the end game here, does this old earth just carry on indefinitely?

Well, scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)

You failed to harmonize the above scriptures with 2 Peter 2:10, Revelation21:1. His kingdom will never pass away but this earth and system as it stands today will.


That said, OUR purpose is to subdue kingdoms and establish righteousness as the Hebrews 11 heroes did:

Hebrews 11:6, 32-33

for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him...for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions

The Christian Church walks in this great heritage of unstoppable faith just like our Hebrews 11 brothers and sisters. We are in process of subduing kingdoms, establishing righteousness, and asserting Christ's dominion over all nations through the same faith of David, Samuel, Joshua, and Moses had. Nothing can stop us (Matthew 16:18-19).

AMEN!

My brother these discussions have been very beneficial to me in understanding what you believe, my faith has not been undermined it has been strengthened. When this current world system falls apart at the seams and we are under the one word government that we are headed towards at breakneck pace, will your declarations that all of this was fulfilled in 70AD give you strength to face possibly having your head cut off for your faith? I truly hope so.

Jesus saved me, I feel His presence He has literally healed my physical body through the gifts of healing, word of knowledge and laying on of hands, 1 Corinthians 12:28, Hebrews 6:2, 1 Corintians 12:8-10. There are men that declare all of these thing are past, believe what you will. I know in whom I believe.

I believe He will physically return in His flesh and bone body, there will be a literal resurrection of the righteous dead and those that are alive and remain when He comes will be changed into their immortal bodies. No doctrine of man can shake that belief. God bless

 

[eclipsenow]

Well, scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)

Science teaches us that the universe is not just expanding, but accelerating. We used to think we had about 100 trillion years or something before entropy sucked all the life out of everything, what we call the heat death of the universe. Now the universe itself could 'pop' before the end of our sun in about just a billion years! As the universe expands so does the amount of dark energy, accelerating the process. Eventually everything will be moving so fast apart from everything else that it will 'pop' in the Big Rip. The sun will appear to go out or disappear, as it accelerates away from us faster than the speed of light! Then the earth will rip apart, then eventually what's left of our bodies, then the sub-atomic particles themselves will all be ripped apart. So much for this lasting forever! It's a GOOD thing that the bible actually isn't Full Preterist, and admits that creation groans in expectation of what is coming. When the Lord returns and heaven and earth wed, we're not the only things that will be saved. Physical reality will be as well: God dwelling with us, in a fixed up universe!

You failed to harmonize the above scriptures with 2 Peter 2:10, Revelation21:1. His kingdom will never pass away but this earth and system as it stands today will.

The imagery is that of passing away, but read the Resurrection accounts again. Jesus has a physical body, and will have a physical place to live. This earth will be upgraded. There will be difference, but continuity, kind of like the new Narnia in CSLewis's Last Battle.

 

[parousia70]

I don't know where you get 1000 years from? What are you talking about now?

Does the time gap matter?
Fine. You pick an amount of time... 100 years, 1000 years, 2000 years 5000 years, it makes no difference to me.
Show how your assertion that ANY extended length of time between the dead rising and the living being caught up PREVENTS the two groups from winding up TOGETHER, since that seems to be your objection to my interpretation of that passage.

 

[parousia70]

Parousia70 post #243

Postview blue

#246 Do you really think the creator of the universe cannot figure out a way to make this happen?

Do you really think the Creator of the Universe could not figure out a way to have the events in and around 70AD stand as fulfillment of these things? especially when the language He used to prophesy of them can be found used over and over to describe past coming judgments of God on nations throughout the OT?

You did not answer my question but we have made so much progress here I’ll let this one slide.

Ok, But I'm not going to let it slide..I'll just assume you do hold the possibility that God is capable of what I suggested.
We are making progress indeed!

From these last few posts between you and I and you and eclipsenow it appears he is a partial preterist and you are a full preterist. If I am wrong in that assumption please feel free to set the record straight.

With Pleasure:
I am a partial preterist, so is eclipse, and, brace yourself, so are you. We only vary by degree.

The accusation of full preterism is a heavy one here on CF, and the burden is on the accuser to prove it.
Show me any view I have espoused that is exclusive to full preterism, and I'll recant it here and now.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

I believe this just as strongly as you do but this is absolutely not a coming of the Lord as referred to in many of the scriptures we have discussed. This is a maneuver to make your doctrine work where it falls apart under the scrutiny of scripture.

You are certainly entitled to that opinion, but I, many scholars, and even ECF's disagree.

Now the “Nicene Creed” is on par with scripture?

There is no authoritative scriptural cross reference to each individual passage of the Nicene creed that I am aware of.
As a Catholic I Hold the Creed as equally authoritative to scripture, all on it own.

Quote from the “Nicene Creed”

“And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

So you believe in ONE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH?
There is hope for you!

I would venture to say most believers who recite this creed have a different view of the resurrection than you.

Well I'm guessing you also have a different view of "One Holy CATHOLIC Church" than I do as well.
So your objection to how I understand the Nicene Creed isn't really limited to eschatology is it?
Perhaps you'd like to show us the scriptural cross reference you believe is "on par" with the Creedal statement "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church"? I'm curious where one would find that teaching in scripture.

I see nothing in this creed to support your lack of belief in a bodily resurrection of the righteous dead.

I have no lack of that belief. I believe in a Bodily resurrection, and have never once indicated otherwise. It seems It's the nature of the Resurrected Body that you and disagree upon.

The creed says “we look for” that is yet future.

Yup. It's why I'm not a full preterist.

Do not Fulfilled prophesies stand for us as the very evidence of the divine origins of Christianity?

Many of the prophesies you claim are fulfilled are not.

Well, I realize that is what you believe, and that's what we are debating. You have by no means established that as fact however.

Well, scripture teaches that the earth and material cosmos will exist forever (Ecc 1:4; Ps 78:69; 89:36-37; 104:5; 148:4-6; Eph 3:21) and that human generations are perpetual (Ps 145:13; Dan 4:3,34; Dan 7:14,18,27; Lk 1:33)

You failed to harmonize the above scriptures with 2 Peter 2:10, Revelation21:1. His kingdom will never pass away but this earth and system as it stands today will.

I assume you mean 2 Peter 3:10?

Ahh the elements melting,earth burning,thief in the night...yes indeed.

I just compare scripture with scripture to come up with the Biblical understanding. If I want to know what a particular word or phrase means or how it is being used, I look elsewhere in scripture to find what it means and how it is used there, in as many other places I can find it.

Isn't that what you do?
Isn't that what we're supposed to do?

1) Jesus Himself applies His thief's coming to first century peoples (Rev 3:3) If 1948, microchips, OWG etc are doctrines prophesied in scripture, the Glorified Christ in Heaven shows He knows nothing about them when he promises His thiefs coming would befall 1st century Christians at Sardis.

2) Elements melting

Elements is used 7 times in the NT and in each of those 7, it is used to refer to the basic, rudimentary, fundamental principles of the Mosaic Law, not the periodic table as you seem to insist.

It is you who have failed to harmonize this scripture with the rest when you insist only 6 of the 7 refer to the Law, but THIS ONE TIME it refers to the periodic Table. You have presented no scriptural instruction that teaches you to do this.

3) Heavens passing away, earth burning up

I have addressed this language multiple times in this thread, but I'm happy to do so again.
.
Note that such apocalyptic language is used of all God's "comings" in history:

God's Coming to End Saul's Kingdom
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)

God's Coming to Judge Nineveh
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet... Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)

God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon, raises up the Medes
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)

You will Note that whenever God has come in biblical times, earth-destroying, mountain-melting, humanity-destroying doom language is applied. I could list dozens of other examples of past judgments that use that language to describe God's hand in the rise and fall of civilizations and empires.

As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.

While all those comings took place in a timeframe near and at hand to those people, as prophesied, the final judgment of God in history--perhaps many thousands of years into the future--could very well have a similar pattern, though the specific details are unknown to men.(Deuteronomy 29:29)

As St. Thomas Aquinas taught:
The signs of which we read in the gospels, as Augustine says, writing to Hesychius about the end of the world, refer not only to Christ's coming to judgment, but also to the time of the sack of Jerusalem, and to the coming of Christ in ceaselessly visiting His Church. So that, perhaps, if we consider them carefully, we shall find that none of them refers to the coming advent, as he remarks: because these signs that are mentioned in the gospels, such as wars, fears, and so forth, have been from the beginning of the human race (Thomas Aquinas; Summa Theologica, Supplement Question 73, Article 1)

I hold the view Sts Augustine and Aquinas espouse above.
Are you still concerned I and they are FULL preterists?

 

[parousia70]

Jesus has a physical body,

So when He says "Wherever 2 or three are gathered I AM THERE" is He there physically but invisible?
Is He there only in spirit, and His spiritless physical Body remains dormant in heaven while His spirit is running around hanging out in the Midst of His Church on earth?
How does it work actually?

 

[eclipsenow]

Does the time gap matter?
Fine. You pick an amount of time... 100 years, 1000 years, 2000 years 5000 years, it makes no difference to me.
Show how your assertion that ANY extended length of time between the dead rising and the living being caught up PREVENTS the two groups from winding up TOGETHER, since that seems to be your objection to my interpretation of that passage.

First, that's not my argument! I didn't argue against the destination being the same, but the timing. There's no rational reason to attribute any vast length of time to the word 'then'. It can simply mean 'next'.

Second, this next verse doesn't seem to indicate any space between salvation and judgement.

Luke 17:26-30 New International Version (NIV)

26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. 27 People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.

28 “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all.

30 “It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed.​

 

[parousia70]

You still haven't told me why the dead rising first matters?

To use your examples. It mattered that Noah went into the ark first, before the flood came. It also mattered that lot left Sodom first, before the fire came.

So Why do you say it matters that the dead rise first before the living are changed?