Most reliable method of preserving doctrine?

[Philothei]

Nobody said it was a common creed. It's not even a creed. It's points of commonality. I've represented it from my own denomination.

The Protestant churches have checks and balances. The problem of course is that no system of checks and balances are perfect, as demonstrated by the departure of major portions of the A.S. church from its own teachings at various points in history. The representation of A.S. churches is just that "subtle garment that the emporer was convinced to wear" through vanity. It doesn't preserve doctrine, it preserves power and impales or cakes over the original.

Show how the Protestant Chruches have checks and balances... Pointing the 'wrongs" in others is not proof they have them

 

[NvxiaLee]

Several Protestant groups indeed accept some traditions such as the Ever-Virginity of Mary

Really? What's the biggest one?

 

[heymikey80]

Show how the Protestant Chruches have checks and balances... Pointing the 'wrongs" in others is not proof they have them

Oh, so Orthodoxy has a check & balance with Rome? IOW, A.S. churches don't have checks & balances outside their own groups, do they?

Presbyterian Churches have courts of process under which they engage in checking actions against other courts. Assemblies, Synods, Presbyteries and indeed Sessions of individual churches are also courts of process, both for executive action and for judicial review.

Virtually every other church has some kind of organization with similar checks. Some are organized in hierarchies, even. Some are Presbyterian, where the membership is accumulated in representative headship. And finally some are congregational, where the churches are independent to a point.

 

[sunlover1]

Ah...Nah I think the compilation is just so we see actually what we are agreeing and where the differences are ...at least that is how I saw it... Let's not get too touchy about the motives here SL
It ain't game ...

Laid out as a contest?
Nahh. I think it better to look at it as it is.
Ortho Cat is way too cool not to mention it.
EASY to get caught up here in GT.
Happens to me ALL the time.
I can see how you might not have noticed..
it's commonplace for all of us

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Really? What's the biggest one?

Lutheran, CoE?

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Was trying to figure out what "list" you and Philothei were talking about
and so I had to refresh my memory re: OP.

Just curious though,
What benefit iyo, is this compilation ..
What 'fruit' if you will might come of this game?

I could try to make some sort of list up that
would show what different churches have in
common, what different churches don't agree on.

But seriously, what would that show.. except just that lol.

Don't get caught up in the "spirit of GT" Brother O...
You good guy... this bad place...!

I think that finding commonalities is the first step to unity...whether one professes A.S. or S.S., don't you agree?

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Laid out as a contest?
Nahh. I think it better to look at it as it is.
Ortho Cat is way too cool not to mention it.
EASY to get caught up here in GT.
Happens to me ALL the time.
I can see how you might not have noticed..
it's commonplace for all of us

In all seriousness though, i wanted to provide a fresh perspective for the AS vs. SS debates...practical discussion as opposed to all the abstract theories and concepts, ya know? Who doesn't get caught up in it all? This place sucks me in like a black hole... lol

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Lutheran, CoE?

There is no Dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary in Lutheranism.... Some Lutherans (including Luther) embraced the concept as "pious opinion" but it's not dogma (and never has been).

When I left the RC denomination, and had a long, respectful, positive discussion with my priest, I told him that I probably agree with 95% of what I learned and was taught (I still do, BTW). He laughed and said (this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics - it may be better than a lot of priests!" He's right about the first, I don't know about the second.... There is MUCH we agree upon - and I never cease to be amazed by that. But that's not the issue of this thread or the issue we are asked (and permitted) to discuss, is it?

The issue before us is WHAT is the most reliable method for "preserving" a true or normative statement or defining teaching? I proposed that probably the best (when possible) is to write it down - objective, knowable, unalterable words for all to see. It's how things have been done since literacy arrived among us some 4000 years ago; it's what God did with the Ten Commandments and in Scripture. IMO (and OBVIOUSLY, you fundamentally and passionately disagree), this is better than self appointing the current views of self as the best way to preserve such - and that if self alone agrees with self alone, ergo self alone must be correct (as in the case of the LDS which agrees with itself). I think self appointing the views of self as interpreted by self isn't particularly sound in this regard (as I read Catholics, Orthodox and Mormons express their view - I often think of how it be driving if we actually embraced the rubric you suggest).

Yup, we disagree.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah





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[Ortho_Cat]

I refer you to the title of the thread....

The point was made that the RCC is the best because it agrees with itself exclusively (as is the worse case situation with some other denominations, too); you seem to be defending that point. I disagree that the LDS is the best preserver of Truth because it agrees with none but self (substitute LDS for ANY denomination, including yours - my point is the same); conversely, I disagree that that the RCC is WRONG because it agrees with none but itself (substitute RCC with any other denomination, including mine or yours - my point is the same).

Sorry, this wasn't mentioned anywhere in the original post, even if you substitute RCC for something else...

 

[Ortho_Cat]

There is no Dogma of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary in Lutheranism.... Some Lutherans (including Luther) embraced the concept as "pious opinion" but it's not dogma (and never has been).

When I left the RC denomination, and had a long, respectful, positive discussion with my priest, I told him that I probably agree with 95% of what I learned and was taught (I still do, BTW). He laughed and said (this is verbatim), "Josiah - that's a whole lot better than most Catholics - it may be better than a lot of priests!" He's right about the first, I don't know about the second.... There is MUCH we agree upon - and I never cease to be amazed by that. But that's not the issue of this thread or the issue we are asked (and permitted) to discuss, is it?

The issue before us is WHAT is the most reliable method for "preserving" a true or normative statement or defining teaching? I proposed that probably the best (when possible) is to write it down - objective, knowable, unalterable words for all to see. It's how things have been done since literacy arrived among us some 4000 years ago; it's what God did with the Ten Commandments and in Scripture. IMO (and OBVIOUSLY, you fundamentally and passionately disagree), this is better than self appointing the current views of self as the best way to preserve such - and that if self alone agrees with self alone, ergo self alone must be correct (as in the case of the LDS which agrees with itself). I think self appointing the views of self as interpreted by self isn't particularly sound in this regard (as I read Catholics, Orthodox and Mormons express their view - I often think of how it be driving if we actually embraced the rubric you suggest).

Yup, we disagree.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah





.

the question wasn't concerning dogma. It was concerning whether or not certain protestant denominations indeed accept such traditions as perpetual virginity, which some do.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

It's clear that the early church had the same issue among those who were handed authority. The Monophysite & Arian controversies both bear the stamps of Apostolic Successionist congregations objecting to one anothers' doctrines.

An interpretation narrowing what's left to us by the Apostles would not be an Apostolic interpretation, but a revision. We either find these views among the Apostles, or we don't find them.




There's an interesting quantity of unity among those who do believe in Sola Scriptura, too. For instance, here's a listing among evangelical churches:

1. We believe in one God, the sovereign Creator and Sustainer of all things, infinitely perfect and eternally existing in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To Him be all honor, glory and praise forever!
2. Jesus Christ, the living Word, became flesh through His miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit and His virgin birth. He who is true God became true man united in one Person forever. He died on the cross a sacrifice for our sins according to the Scriptures. On the third day He arose bodily from the dead, ascended into heaven, where, at the right hand of the Majesty on High, He now is our High Priest and Mediator.
3. The Holy Spirit has come to glorify Christ and to apply the saving work of Christ to our hearts. He convicts us of sin and draws us to the Savior. Indwelling our hearts, He gives new life to us, empowers and imparts gifts to us for service. He instructs and guides us into all truth, and seals us for the day of redemption.
4. Being estranged from God and condemned by our sinfulness, our salvation is wholly dependent upon the work of God's free grace. God credits His righteousness to those who put their faith in Christ alone for their salvation, thereby justifies them in His sight. Only such as are born of the Holy Spirit and receive Jesus Christ become children of God and heirs of eternal life.
5. The true Church is composed of all persons who through saving faith in Jesus Christ and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit are united together in the body of Christ. The Church finds her visible, yet imperfect, expression in local congregations where the Word of God is preached in its purity and the sacraments are administered in their integrity; where scriptural discipline is practiced, and where loving fellowship is maintained. For her perfecting, she awaits the return of her Lord.
6. Jesus Christ will come again to the earth-personally, visibly, and bodily-to judge the living and the dead, and to consummate history and the eternal plan of God. "Even so, come, Lord Jesus." (Rev. 22:20)
7. The Lord Jesus Christ commands all believers to proclaim the Gospel throughout the world and to make disciples of all nations. Obedience to the Great Commission requires total commitment to "Him who loved us and gave Himself for us." He calls us to a life of self-denying love and service. "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Eph. 2:10)

Interesting to note that churches can be anything, expansions on the freedom of religion in the modern world granted the existence of quite a number of churches that went beyond the Reformation views.

But they went beyond Reformation views. One might just as well say Apostolic Successionist churches resulted in the Protestant churches, and is thus to be blamed for all the denominations. In which case -- tradition is not a reliable method of preserving religious doctrine, either.

This is a good list, which I think many SS adherents would subscribe to. But would all of the SS denominations do so? Especially to the first two points? I can think of a few exceptions that would most likely not...
also the reference to sacraments in 5) would probably be contested by quite a few evangelicals that I know...

But the RCC is the church from who the reformation was born...not all of the AS churches. Besides, just because there was schisming in the West, this does not imply that preservation of doctrine has been lost...even among the RCC. They still preserve all that you see in common with the other churches in my OP.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

the question wasn't concerning dogma. It was concerning whether or not certain protestant denominations indeed accept such traditions as perpetual virginity, which some do.

Some Protestant denominations will accept thinking Obama is the best president ever, too. So what?

This thread is about DOCTRINE (read the title of the thread), not pious opinions or practices or anything else. The Perpetual Virginity of Mary is doctrine and/or dogma only in two denominations, known to ME anyway.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that every one of the 50,000 denominations (or whatever number RC' and EO's are pulling out of thin air today) disagree on EVERYTHING. Who is saying that? And yes - as the Catholics and Orthodox here (and in other threads) keep harping on - their OWN singular denomination DOES agree with ONE (and only one) completely - and that one is itself (a grand unity of one: self alone with self alone) - but of course, this "agreement" is ONLY formal, official, institutional and limited to what that self currently regards as good for self to agree with self about), and of course, AT LEAST as much can be said of any other denomination one could name (say the LDS). Yes, we all KNOW this - it's just no one seems to follow why it matters, why you think the LDS MUST be correct because it alone agrees with it alone on all the things that it alone things it alone should agree on, why does THAT make it correct? This very, very, very popular RC and EO apologetic is one that has never made much sense to me.....

The issue here is WHAT is the best way to preserve a true DOCTRINE.
I disagree with you that the best way is to see if self alone agrees with self alone upon it - if that's true, self is infallible/inerrant. Your rubric just makes EVERY denomination correct because every single one of them agrees with self (formally, officially, institutionally, and in those issues that self currently views as good to agree upon).

i know, we disagree.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7544221/






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[sunlover1]

I think that finding commonalities is the first step to unity...whether one professes A.S. or S.S., don't you agree?

I do think that it could help lol.
TBH, I think that the one and only step needed for unity
is found IN Christ.. so .. we be one dude!
But you meant agreement and stuff I guess!
(I am a pita, sorry if this is news to ya lol)

In all seriousness though, i wanted to provide a fresh perspective for the AS vs. SS debates...practical discussion as opposed to all the abstract theories and concepts, ya know? Who doesn't get caught up in it all? This place sucks me in like a black hole... lol

Ahaaa.. well it's easy.. just go with both

Black hole lol.
I intend to escape!.. any day now!!

 

[Rick Otto]

There are no "check and balances" in the Reformed and Evangelical churches that could safe guard the "heresy" of doctrine /belief... We see this in the liberal expressions presented today with only rule the scripture. Unfortunately that can be interpreted any different way...Just saying...

Goes without saying, there being more than one orthodox faith.
Protestants generaly didn't& don't see Christianity as monolithic this side of His return.

 

[Montalban]

Really? What's the biggest one?

The biggest Christian group, or the biggest Protestant?

Catholics are the biggest Christian group, followed by Orthodox.

I'm not sure who the biggest Protestant group is, but here's a link showing which Protestant groups support the fact that Mary is Ever-Virgin....

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

here's a link showing which Protestant groups support the fact that Mary is Ever-Virgin....

Wrong. It doesn't mention any Protestant groups at all. Good reason for that, btw....


And what does that have to do with the subject before us: WHAT is the most reliable METHOD for preserving DOCTRINE?




.

 

[Montalban]

Wrong. It doesn't mention any Protestant groups at all. Good reason for that, btw....

Course it does, it mentions that group of Protestants leaders who were there at the founding; Luther, Zwingli, Calvin et al.

It also says "some Lutherans and Anglicans would opine that it is true". That's another group of Protestants

They are both 'groups', and 'Protestants'

 

[Montalban]

Some Protestant denominations will accept thinking Obama is the best president ever, too. So what?
.

As noted it was simply stating that there are Protestants that accept this.

Again you want to both accept it, and argue against it What's with that?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Since doctrine is communicated via the holy spirit there is the factor of cultural corruption so nowadays to totally begin again with ideas if they're more than two years old is basically what i go with .

It's totally humbling to begin again . i know the traditions could never do this . but i trust God to communicate something that is needed today . and that He's still the same God he always was . so there's no need to idolize ideas communicated based on outdated cultural customs .

preservation is in preserving what people need in any time period to inquire of God what they need to know to do what is specifically written of them .

this is the kingdom that the forces of darkness cannot assail . because it cannot be discerned carnally . all else will be subverted .

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Some Protestant denominations will accept thinking Obama is the best president ever, too. So what?

This thread is about DOCTRINE (read the title of the thread), not pious opinions or practices or anything else. The Perpetual Virginity of Mary is doctrine and/or dogma only in two denominations, known to ME anyway.

Actually theres more than those two. I suggest you investigate the OP closer. Doctrine means body of teaching. You are the only one who has been mentioning Dogma.