Most reliable method of preserving doctrine?

[Montalban]

Seconded.

What points do you think he's been refuting then?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

This is getting odd. I'm now being asked 'what position' on something someone's said that they reject.

I've not posted in this thread ANY position of the RCC that I accept or reject, ONLY noting that YOU and I both disagree with some dogmas of the RCC (the discussion of such is not permitted in this thread).

IF you READ what I've posted, I'm 100% confident your confusion will entirely vanish. Just read the words, those objective, knowable, black-and-white words. READ them. It's all that is needed. Don't change them, don't delete any, don't add any - just read them. I'm quite certain that's all that will be needed. But if something I said is unclear to you, quote it verbatim, ask for clarification; I'd be glad to supply such. Sound good?




.

 

[MrPolo]

threaten men with hell and damnation

An interesting take. Do you think this is more effective than threatening men with hell and damnation if God doesn't happen to pick them out of a pool of equally-guilty men?

 

[sunlover1]

It shows your 'method' to be faulty. Chinese whispers would not guarantee a continution of truth

Why not?

 

[Philothei]

Any kind of doctrine, so long as it is held by the entire group I listed the doctrines in common for those churches who profess apostolic succession. Someone else can list the doctrines or beliefs held by protestants who profess sola scriptura.

I would like to see lists too... Have not seen any yet...Has anyone answered the OP? Instead I see plent of posts on RCC and EO *puzzled*

Which are the common to the different Church groups after the reformation?

 

[Philothei]

I've not posted in this thread ANY position of the RCC that I accept or reject, ONLY noting that YOU and I both disagree with some dogmas of the RCC (the discussion of such is not permitted in this thread).

IF you READ what I've posted, I'm 100% confident your confusion will entirely vanish. Just read the words, those objective, knowable, black-and-white words. READ them. It's all that is needed. Don't change them, don't delete any, don't add any - just read them. I'm quite certain that's all that will be needed. But if something I said is unclear to you, quote it verbatim, ask for clarification; I'd be glad to supply such. Sound good?




.

I would propose this to be a different discussion about RCC this is about Reformation Church Groups and their doctrine (if any) or beliefs that are common to all?

 

[11822]

Most reliable method of preserving doctrine?



... this method works .

threaten men with hell and damnation if they hold any opinion without the consent of a hierarchy , persecute the life out of dissenters , sow doubt and fear .......... instill rewards for compliance ... distance oneself from those "heretical" (any who differ) , always insist the only truth is in the followed group , and cling to the idea God has been extra kind and vigilent to "our group" by presrving only us from error ...... seeing as "we" have such a long tradition others must be distrusted , rejected and pitied ...


it is a sure way to preserve ''doctrine'' .


(sound doctrine is another matter)

Paul said something like that.


2Th 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
2Th 3:15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

 

[11822]

I guess admonish means to carefully reprove him as a brother. Which means to gently rebuke his actions.

 

[heymikey80]

I would like to see lists too... Have not seen any yet...Has anyone answered the OP? Instead I see plent of posts on RCC and EO *puzzled*

Which are the common to the different Church groups after the reformation?

That the unity described does not hold: http://www.christianforums.com/t7558267-7/#post57427493

That the unity described doesn't extend over history: http://www.christianforums.com/t7558267-6/#post57427363

That the unity described resulted from prior disunity -- and that within the church described as being unified:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7558267-51/#post57467579

That many, many evangelical churches are strongly unified over more concerning issues to them:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7558267-51/#post57467579

 

[Philothei]

I previously pointed out that an enforced unity in ever-widening lists of beliefs doesn't really reflect well on preservation. Preservation of Apostolic doctrine doesn't mean preservation of accretions afterward.

This is saying you do not like the guideposts... I see no answer here....

Which Apostle was a monk?

? Who talked about monks?

As for unity, y'ever read the 39 Articles?

No...Enlighten me...

"Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel"
"Commonly called Sacraments but not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel"

Has nothing to do with the topic.

And then there are Calvinistic Anglicans, who would probably have a much stronger retort to your assertions than I would.

Ok... ?

Even from my view, from Presbyterian interests, the church catholic is much more fragmented than asserted on paper here. Its substantial issues would tend to be problematic for ya.

ok you are saying that RCC is as fragmented you accept to fragmentation in the Reformed Churches but how is this justified through the RCC ??? no idea why that would justify it ? But whatever...

But then, just skin the onion differently and I'm sure you can find unity among a smaller group of denominations claiming Apostolic Succession.

ok there we are at something let's elaborate on this one

 

[Philothei]

There aren't a whole lot of major divisions among Protestants. No more so than all the squabbles occurring among the Orthodox, especially when, like the Orthodox, we deprecate those big divisions we consider to be heresies.

The Ethiopian canon is different from yours.

I'm still looking for how the concept of theotokos emerged into phrases like, "Mary, Mother of God, save us", which doesn't seem to come from many of the ECFs.

That would tend toward an expansion of a specific idea about Mary, and not be an original doctrine traceable to the Apostles.

Again you are saying that EO does not have unity with OO I see nowhere unity in the Reformed to be explained...

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Again you are saying that EO does not have unity with OO I see nowhere unity in the Reformed to be explained...

It's true (IMO), there are a number of denominations that have only what your denomination has: agreement with itself. How does self alone agreeing with self alone prove that self alone is the best preserver of truth (in which case, every denomination is AT LEAST as qualified as yours)?



.

 

[Philothei]

It's clear that the early church had the same issue among those who were handed authority. The Monophysite & Arian controversies both bear the stamps of Apostolic Successionist congregations objecting to one anothers' doctrines.

An interpretation narrowing what's left to us by the Apostles would not be an Apostolic interpretation, but a revision. We either find these views among the Apostles, or we don't find them.


There's an interesting quantity of unity among those who do believe in Sola Scriptura, too. For instance, here's a listing among evangelical churches:

1. We believe in one God, the sovereign Creator and Sustainer of all things, infinitely perfect and eternally existing in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To Him be all honor, glory and praise forever!
2. Jesus Christ, the living Word, became flesh through His miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit and His virgin birth. He who is true God became true man united in one Person forever. He died on the cross a sacrifice for our sins according to the Scriptures. On the third day He arose bodily from the dead, ascended into heaven, where, at the right hand of the Majesty on High, He now is our High Priest and Mediator.
3. The Holy Spirit has come to glorify Christ and to apply the saving work of Christ to our hearts. He convicts us of sin and draws us to the Savior. Indwelling our hearts, He gives new life to us, empowers and imparts gifts to us for service. He instructs and guides us into all truth, and seals us for the day of redemption.
4. Being estranged from God and condemned by our sinfulness, our salvation is wholly dependent upon the work of God's free grace. God credits His righteousness to those who put their faith in Christ alone for their salvation, thereby justifies them in His sight. Only such as are born of the Holy Spirit and receive Jesus Christ become children of God and heirs of eternal life.
5. The true Church is composed of all persons who through saving faith in Jesus Christ and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit are united together in the body of Christ. The Church finds her visible, yet imperfect, expression in local congregations where the Word of God is preached in its purity and the sacraments are administered in their integrity; where scriptural discipline is practiced, and where loving fellowship is maintained. For her perfecting, she awaits the return of her Lord.
6. Jesus Christ will come again to the earth-personally, visibly, and bodily-to judge the living and the dead, and to consummate history and the eternal plan of God. "Even so, come, Lord Jesus." (Rev. 22:20)
7. The Lord Jesus Christ commands all believers to proclaim the Gospel throughout the world and to make disciples of all nations. Obedience to the Great Commission requires total commitment to "Him who loved us and gave Himself for us." He calls us to a life of self-denying love and service. "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." (Eph. 2:10)

Interesting to note that churches can be anything, expansions on the freedom of religion in the modern world granted the existence of quite a number of churches that went beyond the Reformation views.

But they went beyond Reformation views. One might just as well say Apostolic Successionist churches resulted in the Protestant churches, and is thus to be blamed for all the denominations. In which case -- tradition is not a reliable method of preserving religious doctrine, either.

I see there is a common creed. That is interesting I was not aware of it Mickey

I understand what you are saying. The Lapsed from the so called Apostolic churches did join the Reformed and so forth. I do not see anything wrong here that would be a "historical" explanation to the value of the Reformation IMHO. Still the question remains that we do not know to what extent all these articles presented here are 'followed" by many Evangelical or/and Reformed Churches. And if they disagree then why would they not "cling" to different 'beliefs' Given there were diviations in the Historical Church or Christ still the main points were there as the 'basic" faith. Deviation was "viewed" as indeed heretical and thus corrected...some with ex-communication some with personal/ pastoral care by the local Bishops. In some cases it was left to linger but in the end if the problem escalated we know that the counsils would take care of situations. i.e. monophysitism, monothelitism arianism etc....There are no "check and balances" in the Reformed and Evangelical churches that could safe guard the "heresy" of doctrine /belief... We see this in the liberal expressions presented today with only rule the scripture. Unfortunately that can be interpreted any different way...Just saying...

 

[Philothei]

It's true (IMO), there are a number of denominations that have only what your denomination has: agreement with itself. How does self alone agreeing with self alone prove that self alone is the best preserver of truth (in which case, every denomination is AT LEAST as qualified as yours)?

My Chruch is not the topic in this thread CJ The Protestant Churches are...

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

My Chruch is not the topic in this thread CJ The Protestant Churches are...

I refer you to the title of the thread....

The point was made that the RCC is the best because it agrees with itself exclusively (as is the worse case situation with some other denominations, too); you seem to be defending that point. I disagree that the LDS is the best preserver of Truth because it agrees with none but self (substitute LDS for ANY denomination, including yours - my point is the same); conversely, I disagree that that the RCC is WRONG because it agrees with none but itself (substitute RCC with any other denomination, including mine or yours - my point is the same).




.

 

[sunlover1]

I posted this on the other thread, but I changed my mind and decided the topic deserves its own thread. So what is the most accurate/reliable/trustworthy method of preserving doctrine based on similarity of beliefs; Apostolic Succession or Sola Scriptura? I have posted the case for AS below, I would appreciate it if someone else could post the case for SS eventually.

OK, as promised, I have come up with a list which shows some of the things that the apostolic churches share in common over the last ~2000 years. By apostolic church, I mean those who claim and adhere to apostolic succession:

Apostolic succession (Hebrew: האפיפיור הירושה‎, Greek: Αποστολική διαδοχ&#942 is a doctrine, held by some Christian denominations, which asserts that the chosen successors (properly ordained bishops) of the Twelve Apostles, from the first century to the present day, have inherited the spiritual, ecclesiastical and sacramental authority, power, and responsibility that were conferred upon them by the Apostles, who in turn received their spiritual authority from Jesus Christ.

Apostolic succession - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These communions I have included are: Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Church of England (Anglican), and Assyrian Church of East. I haven't included Lutherans because this claim is disputed among them.

These common beliefs are:

-Eucharist is true body and blood of our Lord, effectual for our salvation
-Baptism remits sins and is effective for our salvation (i.e. grace is received)
-Belief in 7 sacraments*
-RC/EO/CoE agree on first 7 councils, OO on first 3, and ACOE on first 2
-Baptism of infants
-Liturgical worship
-All use deuterocanonicals canonized by RCC**
-Use prescribed church calendar (fasts/feasts)
-Salvation is not an instantaneous "event", rather a process
-Monastics (monks/nuns)
-Prayer for the dead
-Communion of saints
-Episcopal polity (church governance structure, bishop is head, priests are auxilliary of bishop, deacons assist priest)
-Declare Mary as Theotokos (birthgiver of God) and ever-virgin
-Amillenialism eschatological (end-times) view

*Baptism, eucharist, chrismation/confirmation, holy orders, confession, marriage, unction)
**CoE adds Jerome's foreward, and Ethiopian Orthodox uses a different translation of Maccabees. Also, some consider other books inspired as well, but they all agree on these.

This list is not exhaustive; there are more. If anyone finds any errors in what I've said, or if you'd like me to add anything, please let me know.

It is also worth noting that Lutheran's also share many beliefs in common with the above as well.

I would be interested to see a similar list for Protestants so we can compare it to the list I made. Keep in mind that Protestantism is pretty much confined to the West (or at least they were originally) and only have 500 years to account for, while the Apostolic Churches comprise both East and West, and account for 2000 years. Would anyone be up to the task?

Was trying to figure out what "list" you and Philothei were talking about
and so I had to refresh my memory re: OP.

Just curious though,
What benefit iyo, is this compilation ..
What 'fruit' if you will might come of this game?

I could try to make some sort of list up that
would show what different churches have in
common, what different churches don't agree on.

But seriously, what would that show.. except just that lol.

Don't get caught up in the "spirit of GT" Brother O...
You good guy... this bad place...!

 

[sunlover1]

Ack, forgive my sloppy grammar and punctuation (new)

 

[Philothei]

Was trying to figure out what "list" you and Philothei were talking about
and so I had to refresh my memory re: OP.

Just curious though,
What benefit iyo, is this compilation ..
What 'fruit' if you will might come of this game?

I could try to make some sort of list up that
would show what different churches have in
common, what different churches don't agree on.

But seriously, what would that show.. except just that lol.

Don't get caught up in the "spirit of GT" Brother O...
You good guy... this bad place...!

Ah...Nah I think the compilation is just so we see actually what we are agreeing and where the differences are ...at least that is how I saw it... Let's not get too touchy about the motives here SL
It ain't game ...

 

[Philothei]

I think we can also see the agreement of the Moral issues... that some EO and RC and Lutheran Chruches have "laid down" together..I think CJ can point that out for us right CJ? I think there are some common drafted docs for all three denom or maybe more I need to dig it up actually.... Will be back got to have late lunch !! Bye all Have a great Weekend !!!

 

[heymikey80]

I see there is a common creed. That is interesting I was not aware of it Mickey.

Nobody said it was a common creed. It's not even a creed. It's points of commonality. I've represented it from my own denomination.

As I've pointed out before, there are A.S. churches that would have heartburn over the presentation of commonality here as well. I point out, evangelical Anglicans for example.

I understand what you are saying. The Lapsed from the so called Apostolic churches did join the Reformed and so forth. I do not see anything wrong here that would be a "historical" explanation to the value of the Reformation IMHO. Still the question remains that we do not know to what extent all these articles presented here are 'followed" by many Evangelical or/and Reformed Churches. And if they disagree then why would they not "cling" to different 'beliefs' Given there were diviations in the Historical Church or Christ still the main points were there as the 'basic" faith. Deviation was "viewed" as indeed heretical and thus corrected...some with ex-communication some with personal/ pastoral care by the local Bishops. In some cases it was left to linger but in the end if the problem escalated we know that the counsils would take care of situations. i.e. monophysitism, monothelitism arianism etc....There are no "check and balances" in the Reformed and Evangelical churches that could safe guard the "heresy" of doctrine /belief... We see this in the liberal expressions presented today with only rule the scripture. Unfortunately that can be interpreted any different way...Just saying...

The Protestant churches have checks and balances. The problem of course is that no system of checks and balances are perfect, as demonstrated by the departure of major portions of the A.S. church from its own teachings at various points in history. The representation of A.S. churches is just that "subtle garment that the emporer was convinced to wear" through vanity. It doesn't preserve doctrine, it preserves power and impales or cakes over the original.