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Most OT prophetic passages futurists *think* are about the End Times, aren't

eclipsenow

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But Jesus does not Return 'as a thief'. That whole idea is absurd.
Except that is how he describes it! YOUR reading of Revelation leads you to believe he must be wrong. YOUR futurist assumptions when John says in 4 different ways in Chapter 1 of Revelation that he is talking to that generation of Roman persecuted Christians.

He will Return on power and glory, at a time known by His faithful believers; that being exactly 1260 days after the Temple is desecrated.
Hmmm, yeah, nah.
You're using your own futurist presuppositions on highly disputed passages to just ride rough-shod over the plainest verses in Scripture about Jesus return being like a thief in the night, like a master returning on bad household servants, like the bridegroom returning to the maidens that must have their lamps lit for the procession to work - and like a master returning to tally up his investments. ALL are about Jesus kingdom and his return and it finishes with the parable of the sheep and goats on Judgement Day to cap it off.

You read the bible exactly the wrong way around - and try to wipe the unclear all over the clear.
 
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keras

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Except that is how he describes it! YOUR reading of Revelation leads you to believe he must be wrong.
My understanding, obtained from intensive study of all the Prophesies, is that the Lord will send His fiery wrath to destroy His enemies, on a Day no one can know and He won't be seen then.
On the Day Jesus Returns, every eye will see Him and anyone with a Bible, at that time, will know when that Day will come.

They are two separate days, years apart.
Will Amos 5:18-20 happen when Jesus Returns? No; that describes a Day of terror and distress.
 
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eclipsenow

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They are two separate days, years apart.
Will Amos 5:18-20 happen when Jesus Returns? No; that describes a Day of terror and distress.
Salvation and distress happen together - or what did you think the sheep and the goats were about? We've been over this.

When Amil's read the whole New Testament we see that the Day of the Lord -when Jesus returns - is it. There is no more, no in-between ages, no end-times-table. The Lord suddenly and unpredictably returns and EVERYTHING changes in an instant.

There are two ages in the New Testament - THIS AGE - and the AGE TO COME - and the transition between the two is the Day of the Lord aka Judgement Day aka the Coming of the Son of Man. There's just no separating any of this out! The dead are raised and judged, the heavens and earth melt, the New Heavens and New Earth are installed and believers are saved into their eternal new home. All together - as far as I can tell - in a flash! So read the clearer statements in Scripture first, then try and understand the less clear after that. Let's look at the clear first.

THIS AGE looks like this:-
“homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children, and fields — and with them persecutions” (Mk 10:30); “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage” (Lk 20:34); the scholar, philosopher and such wisdom are of this age (1 Cor 1:20); secular and religious rulers dominate (1 Cor 2:6-8); “the god of this age [Satan] has blinded the minds of unbelievers” (2 Cor 4:4); this age is explicitly called “the present evil age” (Gal 1:4); ungodliness and worldly passions are typical of it (Titus 2:12). All of these qualities are temporal, and are certainly destined to pass away with the return of our Lord. “This age” is the age in which we live, and is the age in which we struggle as we long for the coming of Christ and the better things of the age to come.

THE AGE TO COME looks like this:-
it is characterized by eternal life (Mk 10:30; Lk 18:30); is also denoted as a time when there is no marriage or giving in marriage (Lk 20:35); and it is which is characterized by “life that is truly life” (I Tim 6:19). These qualities are all eternal, and are indicative of the state of affairs and quality of life after the return of Christ. In other words, these two ages, the present (“this age”) and the future (the “age to come”) stand in diametrical opposition to one another. One age is temporal; the other is eternal. One age is characterized by unbelief and ends in judgement; the other is the age of the faithful and is home to the redeemed. It is this conception of biblical history that dominates the New Testament.

THE DAY OF THE LORD / LAST DAY looks like this

MATTHEW 13
The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the “last day” (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24)

“There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day” (John 12:48)

The return of Christ will occur “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Co. 15:52; cf. 1 Thess 4:16). Notice that there are no gaps of time indicated between the resurrection and the judgement. These texts collectively speak of the resurrection, the judgment, and the return of Christ as distinct aspects of but one event, occurring at precisely the same time (cf. Mt 25:31-46). Premillennialists, who often chide amillennialists for not taking the Bible “literally” and who champion what they call the “literal” interpretation of Scripture, must now insert a thousand-year gap between the Second Coming of Christ (and the resurrection) and the Final Judgment to make room for the supposed future millennial reign of Christ! And this, ironically, when the clear declarations of Scripture do not allow for such gaps.

IT ALL HAPPENS TOGETHER!
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

2 Peter 3:10-13
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

(Much of the material here adapted from the following source.)
A Present or Future Millennium? by Kim Riddlebarger
 
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keras

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Salvation and distress happen together
Your Bible has a beginning; Creation, a mid point; Jesus ministry and sacrificial death and an ending: Eternity.
THATS boring!

You avoid Amos 5:18-20. That and many other prophesies say the Day of the Lords wrath is a Day of darkness, not light.
The sun will be darkened at Jesus' Return; THEN He will appear in a blaze of light and glory.
 
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eclipsenow

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Your Bible has a beginning; Creation, a mid point; Jesus ministry and sacrificial death and an ending: Eternity. THATS boring!

Well I'm sad that you find the gospel boring - but you said it
 
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keras

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Well I'm sad that you find the gospel boring - but you said it
What I actually said; without your twisting it to mean the opposite, was that YOUR view of the Bible message was boring.

The AMill idea of itallhappeningatonce, is a complete rejection of most of Bible prophecy. God's amazing Plan of how He will achieve a people who have chosen to believe Him and to obey His Commandments.
We have been told, so to offhandedly dismiss God's warnings, is a very serious matter and may result in just a narrow escape. 1 Cor 3:13-15

You still avoid Amos 5:18-20. When will that happen?
 
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eclipsenow

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What I actually said; without your twisting it to mean the opposite, was that YOUR view of the Bible message was boring.

The AMill idea of itallhappeningatonce, is a complete rejection of most of Bible prophecy.

No - once again we've been here before - the Amil idea is to respect the OT prophets enough to read them in context. Your repeated insistence on rejecting CONTEXT is what is boring! Once again:

In the OT the "Day of Lord" is mostly predicting local, historical judgements and rarely discusses a distant, unrelated future 2500 years later! Paul Williamson teaches Old Testament at Moore Theological College.

While the Old Testament portrays God as the righteous judge of all the earth (cf. Gen 18:25; 1Sam 2:10; 1Chr 16:33) who holds both individuals and nations accountable for their actions (e.g., Deut 32:41; Psa 110:6; Job 19:29; Eccl 3:17; 11:9; Ezek 33:20; Jer 25:31; Joel 3:2), such divine judgment — often referred to as “the day of the LORD” or simply “that day” — is usually confined to the historical realm (i.e., military overthrow, physical curse and/or death); seldom, if ever, does it refer to a final, eschatological or eternal judgment. Some texts may arguably allude to such (e.g., Psa 1:5; Eccl 3:17; 11:9; 12:14), but the closest we get to a final assize in the Old Testament is the scene in Daniel 7, where the Ancient of Days presides over a heavenly court at which books are opened, the terrifying fourth beast is destroyed in blazing fire, and the eternal kingdom is given to God’s holy people. Arguably the same scenario is portrayed somewhat differently in Daniel 12, where those sleeping in the dust of the earth awake — some to glory and everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. In any case, there is little doubt that both these texts inform the New Testament’s portrayal of the ultimate Day of the Lord and the final judgment.
The Final Judgment - The Gospel Coalition
 
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keras

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Time for Jeremiah to inform us of the truth:
Jeremiah 50:17-18 Israel is a scattered flock, harried and chased by wild animals. Assyria was the first to conquer them, then Babylon finally finished them off. Therefore, Assyria and Babylon will be punished and made desolate.
This is fulfilled prophecy, from now on Bible prophecy uses Babylon as a metaphor for the ungodly nations. and entities.


Jeremiah 50:19 But the Israelites will come back to their own heritage. When that time comes, I will pardon the remnant of Israel and Judah.

Although part of Judah have returned to part of the Land, we await the final fulfilment of this prophecy, the gathering of all the Lord’s Christian people into all of the holy Land.


Jeremiah 51:15-18 The Lord made the earth by His power, He controls the elements – the wind and the rain. People are ignorant, pursuing their idols, things of mockery which will vanish on the Day of Reckoning.

The Day of Reckoning,‘ elsewhere referred to as the Great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. This will be the next prophesied event, opening the way for His people to go to the holy Land and for the eventual rise of the Anti-Christ.


Jeremiah 51:19-47 Israel’s God is not like any idol, He is the Creator and Israel are the people He claims as His own, Y’hovah is His Name. With you I shall repay Babylon, that destructive mountain. Therefore, the time is coming when I shall punish Babylon, her idols and the whole land will be put to shame – all her slain will lie fallen in her midst. Jeremiah 9:21-22


Jeremiah 51:45 & 50-51 My people, come out from her and let everyone save themselves from the fierce anger of the Lord. You who escape the sword, go – do not linger. Remember the Lord from a distant land and let Jerusalem come into your minds. We are disgraced and shamed because foreigners have entered Your holy places.

Jeremiah 51:46 Beware of losing heart, fear no rumors or violence on earth. Reference: Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged


The Lord’s people, all righteous Christian believers who are now the inheritors of God’s promises, Galatians 3:25-29, are told to get out of the Babylonish nations, those who ‘escape the sword’, that is: who by faith, survive the forthcoming Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. Remember your God and Creator from where you live, in distant lands, [from Israel] that will be the time to travel to your inheritance. Psalms 107:1-43, Isaiah 66:15-21

Do not be afraid, there will be ‘violence on earth’, but you who love the Lord and keep His Laws, must maintain your faith and trust in His deliverance. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

The Final Judgment does not come until Jesus has reigned on earth for a thousand years. Revelation 20:11-15
 
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eclipsenow

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Time for Jeremiah to inform us of the truth:
Jeremiah 50:17-18 Israel is a scattered flock, harried and chased by wild animals. Assyria was the first to conquer them, then Babylon finally finished them off. Therefore, Assyria and Babylon will be punished and made desolate.
This is fulfilled prophecy, from now on Bible prophecy uses Babylon as a metaphor for the ungodly nations. and entities.


Jeremiah 50:19 But the Israelites will come back to their own heritage. When that time comes, I will pardon the remnant of Israel and Judah.

Although part of Judah have returned to part of the Land, we await the final fulfilment of this prophecy, the gathering of all the Lord’s Christian people into all of the holy Land.


Jeremiah 51:15-18 The Lord made the earth by His power, He controls the elements – the wind and the rain. People are ignorant, pursuing their idols, things of mockery which will vanish on the Day of Reckoning.

The Day of Reckoning,‘ elsewhere referred to as the Great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. This will be the next prophesied event, opening the way for His people to go to the holy Land and for the eventual rise of the Anti-Christ.


Jeremiah 51:19-47 Israel’s God is not like any idol, He is the Creator and Israel are the people He claims as His own, Y’hovah is His Name. With you I shall repay Babylon, that destructive mountain. Therefore, the time is coming when I shall punish Babylon, her idols and the whole land will be put to shame – all her slain will lie fallen in her midst. Jeremiah 9:21-22


Jeremiah 51:45 & 50-51 My people, come out from her and let everyone save themselves from the fierce anger of the Lord. You who escape the sword, go – do not linger. Remember the Lord from a distant land and let Jerusalem come into your minds. We are disgraced and shamed because foreigners have entered Your holy places.

Jeremiah 51:46 Beware of losing heart, fear no rumors or violence on earth. Reference: Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged


The Lord’s people, all righteous Christian believers who are now the inheritors of God’s promises, Galatians 3:25-29, are told to get out of the Babylonish nations, those who ‘escape the sword’, that is: who by faith, survive the forthcoming Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. Remember your God and Creator from where you live, in distant lands, [from Israel] that will be the time to travel to your inheritance. Psalms 107:1-43, Isaiah 66:15-21

Do not be afraid, there will be ‘violence on earth’, but you who love the Lord and keep His Laws, must maintain your faith and trust in His deliverance. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

The Final Judgment does not come until Jesus has reigned on earth for a thousand years. Revelation 20:11-15

Er, no. CME is not going to happen.
2026 AOD is not going to happen.
2030 is not going to happen the way you predict it - on your 'timeline'.

This is what Jeremiah is about.

 
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keras

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Er, no. CME is not going to happen.
A direct rejection of Isaiah 30:26a and later of Revelation 16:8-9

FYI, as you seem so ill-informed; the sun has just exploded out a small CME. It has caused no serious effects, but astro physicist scientists know and warn of possible dramatic effects from a big CME.
2026 AOD is not going to happen.
Maybe not that year, but we can be sure the Prophesies of Daniel and of Jesus, Matthew 24:15, will be literally fulfilled.
2030 is not going to happen the way you predict it - on your 'timeline'.
Your definitive assertions are far worse that anything I have posted.
How can you spout about the events of 2030?

No one has had the moral fortitude to properly address the Bible timeline, as I have presented it.
 
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eclipsenow

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No one has had the moral fortitude to properly address the Bible timeline, as I have presented it.
Ahhh, so it's my lousy character that makes me unwilling to reject the context of the OT prophets, the biblical theology expressed by the NT itself, and the unfolding nature of God's plan as expressed in Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, and other pivotal books that show how the NT gospel events fulfil all the OT gospel promises and shadows?

I'm just a bad person!
Bad dobby!
 
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keras

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the unfolding nature of God's plan as expressed in Romans, Galatians, Hebrews, and other pivotal books that show how the NT gospel events fulfil all the OT gospel promises and shadows?
We are discussing Bible Prophecy, not the Gospel of Salvation.
The Prophesies of the NT correlate with the OT Prophesies and Revelation has the proper sequence of events.

Moral fortitude: NZ and Aust meaning= The guts to properly address the 47 Bible verses and the known historical dates, which give us the proof of Gods 7000 year Plan for mankind.
 
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eclipsenow

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We are discussing Bible Prophecy, not the Gospel of Salvation.
The Prophesies of the NT correlate with the OT Prophesies and Revelation has the proper sequence of events.
Not quite - the OT prophecies are fulfilled by the gospel events - in eschatological tension.

Moral fortitude: NZ and Aust meaning= The guts to properly address the 47 Bible verses and the known historical dates, which give us the proof of Gods 7000 year Plan for mankind.
I thought that's what you were trying to say, but the phrase is "intestinal fortitude" = gut strength = guts.

Also, your "Proof" is your way of reading those genealogies. There are other ways and "son of" sometimes means descendent of.
 
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keras

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Not quite - the OT prophecies are fulfilled by the gospel events - in eschatological tension.
'Eschatological tension', is just an attempt to make the prophesies fit a belief. There is no need for such 'wise and learned' manipulation of scripture, if it is read and understood just as it is Written.
I come across your type often. They water down and make the Prophesies mean other than what the Bible plainly says.

Saying the Prophesies are fulfilled by Gospel events, is nonsense.
Also, your "Proof" is your way of reading those genealogies. There are other ways and "son of" sometimes means descendent of.
The fact that the Bible given time periods, related to our calendar add up to 3 exact 2000 year periods, is insignificant to you, is hard to credit.
I can only suggest that you seriously re-think your beliefs, to align with the truths of scripture.
 
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Oseas

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Hi all,
It's become a bit of a cliche - but when I ask why certain futurists think the Olivet discourse's AOD (Matthew 24, Luke 21, etc) is some future event and not Rome trashing Jerusalem and the temple in AD70, futurists reply that Rome didn't meet the requirements of the AOD as described in Daniel.

The destruction of the temple of Jerusalem in 70AD has nothing to do with "Olivets discourse's" of JESUS as is written in Matthew 24:v.1-2, neither with the AOD. AOD has to do with what is written in Matthew 24:v.15 henceforward:

1 - DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE IN 70AD - Matt.24:v.1-2
1 - And Jesus went out, and departed from the Temple: and His disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the temple.(Oh how great,how admirable,were the stones and the temple!)

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here ONE stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Jesus left His disciples disappointed with his answer, evidently. Then JESUS went to the Mount of Olives, there the disciples still perplexed with the destination of the Temple of Jerusalem according to JESUS, then they asked two things to the Lord JESUS, saying privately: Matt. 24:v.3 - Tell us, when shall these things be?
(1) what shall be the sign of thy coming, (2) and of the END of the world?

Well, the testimomy of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy.
Prophecy always is about the future, never of the past, this doesn't exist. What belongs to the past is history, it has nothing to do with prophecy. That said, what JESUS prophesied about the Temple it fulfilled LITERALLY in the year 70AD. The destruction of the Temple has nothing to do with AOD, nor with the coming of JESUS, nither with the "Olivet discourse's".

So, in fulfilment of the words of JESUS, the temple was destroyed in 70AD, and the nation-the people-of Israel was banned from their land and was scattered around the world for 1.878 years, from year 70 to 1.948AD, more than 100 K died. Israel was punished severely from year 70 until 1,948 AD, they suffered strong punishments in LITERAL fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28:v.15 to 68. Check it out. THE WORD IS GOD.

Regarding the sign of JESUS's coming, and of the END of the world, and also about the AOD, I will comment separately in another post. It because is very later, it's 1:45 AM here in Brazil, I must rest a little, I am in my daily battle since the morning.

May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen
 
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eclipsenow

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I come across your type often. They water down and make the Prophesies mean other than what the Bible plainly says.
What - like making the great and terrible Day of the Lord a nerfed little catastrophe that only deals with 1/20th the human population? Yeah - it's just terrible how I have 'watered down' what the bible says. :doh:

Saying the Prophesies are fulfilled by Gospel events, is nonsense.
No - it's good theology.

The fact that the Bible given time periods, related to our calendar add up to 3 exact 2000 year periods, is insignificant to you, is hard to credit.

This is about all we learn from the geneologies
How Do I Deal with the Genealogies?

Your genealogy argument falls apart like a house of cards. You do violence to them to strangle them into your literal 2000 year blocks. "The Hebrew word for "son" can also mean descendant; for example even remote descendants of King David are in many instances identified as "So-and-so son of David" in the original Hebrew."
Gershom - Wikipedia

I can only suggest that you seriously re-think your beliefs, to align with the truths of scripture.
See - in 2027 I'll still be Amil.
But in 2027 - what will you be when your whole system collapses? Will you get as disillusioned as the young people I'm worried about? How many young people have taken these futurist ramblings as serious - and maybe postponed career plans or made unwise decisions as a result? How many give up on Jesus because they were trusting in some Futurist timetable rather than the Lord himself?
 
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Acts29

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See, Keras had a personal vision and you've had a personal vision and neither of you agree with the other so it leaves the rest of us kinda "Meh". Doesn't God know what he's doing? :scratch:

Also, the emotions expressed in your post remind me of something I have been thinking through for decades.
I used to feel the same urgent Apocalyptic CERTAINTY some here feel

I'll try to answer as gently as I can. In the time of Moses, Elijah, Jeremiah, etc. there were always false prophets that many believed and went astray. (I'm not making any assertions about anyone in particular.) There was always a choice and the people had to discern. The things I told you were very specific which you could easily test when the time comes. Although someone complained and the mods took down that specific post, hopefully you can remember enough to know when the time comes whether I am real or false.
 
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eclipsenow

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I'll try to answer as gently as I can. In the time of Moses, Elijah, Jeremiah, etc. there were always false prophets that many believed and went astray. (I'm not making any assertions about anyone in particular.) There was always a choice and the people had to discern. The things I told you were very specific which you could easily test when the time comes. Although someone complained and the mods took down that specific post, hopefully you can remember enough to know when the time comes whether I am real or false.
As I am Amil and Sola Scriptura - I can tell you your prophecy is going to be incorrect right now. No need to wait.

2 Tim 3:16-17 - it's another one of those 3:16's everyone should memorise.
 
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Acts29

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As I am Amil and Sola Scriptura - I can tell you your prophecy is going to be incorrect right now. No need to wait.

2 Tim 3:16-17 - it's another one of those 3:16's everyone should memorise.

It doesn't take a prophet to know you wouldn't believe me, or even "wait and see." That's why I said those things to you in the first place.
 
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eclipsenow

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2 Timothy 3

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I don't need your subjective, untestable, 'prophecy'. I mean, if I was open to that, where do I draw the line? Mohammed said he had a 'prophecy'?
 
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