Moses was right the first time (killing the Egyptian)

[Pavel Mosko]

Exodus 2:11-15
New International Version

Moses Flees to Midian
11 One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. 12 Looking this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand. 13 The next day he went out and saw two Hebrews fighting. He asked the one in the wrong, “Why are you hitting your fellow Hebrew?”

14 The man said, “Who made you ruler and judge over us? Are you thinking of killing me as you killed the Egyptian?” Then Moses was afraid and thought, “What I did must have become known.”

15 When Pharaoh heard of this, he tried to kill Moses, but Moses fled from Pharaoh and went to live in Midian, where he sat down by a well.


I have heard quite a number of sermons on this passage. Quite often from Pentecostals and Charismatics who use it as an example of someone "getting ahead of God" and trying to carry out your calling "in your flesh". Just today, I listened to part of a sermon from the famous Baptist minister Charles Stanley that had a similar kind of message.

While this passage may look like like a good case against vices like impulsivity etc. which is how Stanley spoke about it, it is not the only passage of scripture that deals with the incident. Stephen the first martyr also references it when speaking to the Sanhedrin when he was "full of the Holy Spirit."



Acts 7:
20 “At that time Moses was born, and he was no ordinary child. For three months he was cared for by his family. 21 When he was placed outside, Pharaoh’s daughter took him and brought him up as her own son. 22 Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in speech and action.

23 “When Moses was forty years old, he decided to visit his own people, the Israelites. 24 He saw one of them being mistreated by an Egyptian, so he went to his defense and avenged him by killing the Egyptian. 25 Moses thought that his own people would realize that God was using him to rescue them, but they did not. 26 The next day Moses came upon two Israelites who were fighting. He tried to reconcile them by saying, ‘Men, you are brothers; why do you want to hurt each other?’

27 “But the man who was mistreating the other pushed Moses aside and said, ‘Who made you ruler and judge over us? 28 Are you thinking of killing me as you killed the Egyptian yesterday?’ 29 When Moses heard this, he fled to Midian, where he settled as a foreigner and had two sons.

30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. 31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to get a closer look, he heard the Lord say: 32 ‘I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.’ Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look.

33 “Then the Lord said to him, ‘Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground. 34 I have indeed seen the oppression of my people in Egypt. I have heard their groaning and have come down to set them free. Now come, I will send you back to Egypt.’

35 “This is the same Moses they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush. 36 He led them out of Egypt and performed wonders and signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the wilderness.

37 “This is the Moses who told the Israelites, ‘God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your own people.’ 38 He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us.
38 He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us.

39 “But our ancestors refused to obey him. Instead, they rejected him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt.

.....

51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52 Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— 53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.”

 

[Carl Emerson]

So the suggestion is that the sin was in failing to heed Moses who was led of God to deal with the injustice?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

So the suggestion is that the sin was in failing to heed Moses who was led of God to deal with the injustice?

When you look at it through the Book of Acts and Stephen's testimony it looks like the Children of Israel were given an early chance to "get out jail" so to speak.


I would compare this to something else I learned from listening to Bible gateway audio. I noticed this listening to the entire passages of the Bible rather than just reading proof text verses etc. you get more context doing this.


Anyway if you look at the Genesis and the Call of Abraham, Abraham was not the first one called. It actually looks like Terah his father actually was! It's just that Terah got bogged down in the process of moving out of UR and was happy to live in the country side. Anyway that can give you a change of perspective like God sometimes starts things a generation or so before something succeeds. Or maybe like that verse "that many are called but few are chosen."

 

[Fervent]

It's an interesting thought, but I'm not sure it's warranted to go as far as to say Moses behaved appropriately to begin with. I can see how Stephen's use of the incident might give that impression, but it is quite possible that Moses was in the wrong and the Hebrew that questioned Moses' authority were in the wrong. All we know is that God used all of it for His glory.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

It's an interesting thought, but I'm not sure it's warranted to go as far as to say Moses behaved appropriately to begin with. I can see how Stephen's use of the incident might give that impression, but it is quite possible that Moses was in the wrong and the Hebrew that questioned Moses' authority were in the wrong. All we know is that God used all of it for His glory.

1) If you listen to the two chapters of Acts in their entirety you get that impression. The notion that Stephen is speaking from the Holy Spirit etc. is reinforced a number of times. And this incident is just one bullet point of a larger case regarding to how the Children of Israel "resist the spirit" and rebel against God.


2) This is also speculation but Moses actions in this passage are actually very comparable to those of future Judges of Israel, like Barak who stabbed the fat Canaanite king etc. in Judges 4. (If God sanctioned that then this is totally feasible).


Acts 6

Stephen Seized
8 Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people. 9 Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called)—Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia—who began to argue with Stephen. 10 But they could not stand up against the wisdom the Spirit gave him as he spoke.

11 Then they secretly persuaded some men to say, “We have heard Stephen speak blasphemous words against Moses and against God.”

12 So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. They seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin. 13 They produced false witnesses, who testified, “This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. 14 For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us.”

15 All who were sitting in the Sanhedrin looked intently at Stephen, and they saw that his face was like the face of an angel.


......

Acts 7

The Stoning of Stephen
54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.

59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

 

[Fervent]

If you listen to the two chapters of Acts in their entirety you get that impression. The notion that Stephen is speaking from the Holy Spirit etc. is reinforced a number of times. And this incident is just one bullet point of a larger case regarding to how the Children of Israel "resist the spirit" and rebel against God.


Acts 6

Stephen Seized
8 Now Stephen, a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people. 9 Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called)—Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia—who began to argue with Stephen. 10 But they could not stand up against the wisdom the Spirit gave him as he spoke.

11 Then they secretly persuaded some men to say, “We have heard Stephen speak blasphemous words against Moses and against God.”

12 So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. They seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin. 13 They produced false witnesses, who testified, “This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. 14 For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us.”

15 All who were sitting in the Sanhedrin looked intently at Stephen, and they saw that his face was like the face of an angel.


......

Acts 7

The Stoning of Stephen
54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.

59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

I can see why you get the impression from Acts, but I don't get the same impression. I do get the impression that the resistance of the Jews is in mind, and it's absolutely clear Moses was meant to deliver them there is no direct indication that the killing of the Egyptian was either correct or wrong, it's simply something that happened historically. It's worth considering the possibility that Moses was correct in his action, but simply because some err in judging him hasty does not mean we should correct in the opposite direction. Though the implications on God's sovereignty vs free will are interesting to consider if your analysis is correct.

 

[Sabertooth]

From the OP, it looks like Moses was responding to a specific injustice; that he did not have a larger plan for emancipation in place. If he had one, he wouldn't have freaked at Pharaoh's death threat. (It is interesting that the Hebrews characterized the killing as murder rather than justice. That implies that they were pretty well "Stockholmed" at the time.)

It was a more straightforward case of righteous indignation. God used the fallout from that to get Moses to Mt. Sinai for a Divine appointment. If Moses had not killed the Egyptian, he would have remained a [bureaucrat?] in the Egyptian government.

God did not seem to consider the killing of the Egyptian to be murder.
God wouldn't let David build His temple because he had "blood on his hands" [1 Chronicles 28:3].
Moses only had to remove his shoes to stand on Holy ground.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

There is a article on Theodicy that I mention from time to time, on failure in the Christian life (When God lets you fail on your endeavors in spite of your best efforts, prayers etc.). I tend to mention because it has brought me some comfort dealing with my past where God seemed to let me down etc. and mention it for others etc.

But I think it does apply to Moses, in that the author Christian Apologist, William Lane Craig talks about how God can use Failure in a positive way and even lead people into it etc. as part of "his plan" so to speak (because some people can learn and develop more from failure than success at least if they got the right attitude). And well Moses is not only a great biblical figure, but a great type and shadow of Christ in many ways (royal figure, suffering servant, shepherd, savior, judge etc.) but he would be much less so without the extra time in the desert looking after sheep etc.


Failure | Reasonable Faith

 

[Sabertooth]

...he would be much less so without the extra time in the desert looking after sheep etc.

I understand that David was chosen for very similar reasons.

 

[pescador]

Moses tried to bring about God's justice by violent means. He was full of his own self-importance and clearly was not directed by God. The action bears a frightening parallel to the invasion of the Capitol by a mob intent on bringing about "justice" by violent means.

Moses fled and virtually disappeared until God called him directly. Hopefully, that will be the case with those, including "Christians", who tried to change society by violent means, including murder.

 

[Carl Emerson]

There is a article on Theodicy that I mention from time to time, on failure in the Christian life (When God lets you fail on your endeavors in spite of your best efforts, prayers etc.). I tend to mention because it has brought me some comfort dealing with my past where God seemed to let me down etc. and mention it for others etc.

But I think it does apply to Moses, in that the author Christian Apologist, William Lane Craig talks about how God can use Failure in a positive way and even lead people into it etc. as part of "his plan" so to speak (because some people can learn and develop more from failure than success at least if they got the right attitude). And well Moses is not only a great biblical figure, but a great type and shadow of Christ in many ways (royal figure, suffering servant, shepherd, savior, judge etc.) but he would be much less so without the extra time in the desert looking after sheep etc.


Failure | Reasonable Faith

Reminds me of Edison...

 

[Carl Emerson]

Moses tried to bring about God's justice by violent means. He was full of his own self-importance and clearly was not directed by God. The action bears a frightening parallel to the invasion of the Capitol by a mob intent on bringing about "justice" by violent means.

Moses fled and virtually disappeared until God called him directly. Hopefully, that will be the case with those, including "Christians", who tried to change society by violent means, including murder.

While I agree with you in principle, I see no scriptural support to suggest this common interpretation applies to Moses in this case.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Carl this thread only exists because I have never heard Moses preached on according to the book of Acts. It is always based on OT. The interpretations are reasonable, or normal (the person seems to be going with what the text seems to be implying) etc. My POV is more about things like "the full counsel of scripture" etc. Their is a tendency when looking to the Bible to do key word searches and to focus just on the narrow topic at hand. But I think that it leads to a kind of tunnel vision, because lots of times people can loose context or maybe forget some other passage that speaks to the situation etc.


I developed a new method of studying the Bible, (it's really an ancient method going back to ancient times, except I'm using modern technology). I had problems needing new glasses for years, but I could not up my reading power because it screwed up my long distance vision that I needed for driving so I couldn't do it. But I began, to use Bible gateway audio function to hear it read, and I began listening to large sections of the Bible at a time, where at one point I think I went through the Bible something like at least +5 times a year. Responding to some preaching to do that, but I also was able to use it as a way of getting more out of certain activities like playing the Bible when doing chores, playing computer games etc.


Anyway I developed a kind of spiritual discipline of listening to the Bible in mass and paying attention to parts, or points that you never noticed before, besides all the usual uses of the Bible where people are reminded of the things they should be doing, but aren't etc.


And strangely a lot of this has been motivated by my past Charismatic background (done to edify myself etc.), but it does tie in to some secular topics every once in a while. I had to take advanced essay writing class in graduate school, the school I transferred wanted it for an undergraduate degree but my former one didn't require it. But the class was very useful in a number of ways. One big thing point I learned is that human pick up a lot of syntax, vocabulary, and literary style from the stuff they read so we were encouraged to read a lot when we were not working on essay assignments because you pick up a lot by osmosis. And that was something I needed a lot because, I often had problems keeping all the syntax rules in my head for a long time, but I'm good at absorbing stuff. And actually there is a lot of literary stuff in the Bible where that sort of thing applies too if you get at the original context and languages etc. , but I digress.....

 

[pescador]

Carl this thread only exists because I have never heard Moses preached on according to the book of Acts. It is always based on OT. The interpretations are reasonable, or normal (the person seems to be going with what the text seems to be implying) etc. My POV is more about things like "the full counsel of scripture" etc. Their is a tendency when looking to the Bible to do key word searches and to focus just on the narrow topic at hand. But I think that it leads to a kind of tunnel vision, because lots of times people can loose context or maybe forget some other passage that speaks to the situation etc.


I developed a new method of studying the Bible, (it's really an ancient method going back to ancient times, except I'm using modern technology). I had problems needing new glasses for years, but I could not up my reading power because it screwed up my long distance vision that I needed for driving so I couldn't do it. But I began, to use Bible gateway audio function to hear it read, and I began listening to large sections of the Bible at a time, where at one point I think I went through the Bible something like at least +5 times a year. Responding to some preaching to do that, but I also was able to use it as a way of getting more out of certain activities like playing the Bible when doing chores, playing computer games etc.


Anyway I developed a kind of spiritual discipline of listening to the Bible in mass and paying attention to parts, or points that you never noticed before, besides all the usual uses of the Bible where people are reminded of the things they should be doing, but aren't etc.


And strangely a lot of this has been motivated by my past Charismatic background (done to edify myself etc.), but it does tie in to some secular topics every once in a while. I had to take advanced essay writing class in graduate school, the school I transferred wanted it for an undergraduate degree but my former one didn't require it. But the class was very useful in a number of ways. One big thing point I learned is that human pick up a lot of syntax, vocabulary, and literary style from the stuff they read so we were encouraged to read a lot when we were not working on essay assignments because you pick up a lot by osmosis. And that was something I needed a lot because, I often had problems keeping all the syntax rules in my head for a long time, but I'm good at absorbing stuff. And actually there is a lot of literary stuff in the Bible where that sort of thing applies too if you get at the original context and languages etc. , but I digress.....

This is very interesting to me, but unfortunately it's way off topic. It might be a good idea to start a new thread about how we read/hear and "digest" God's Word. Personally, I try to read the Bible in the format in which the "books" were written. There were (obviously) no chapters and verses to disrupt the literary pattern and flow of the writings. There are Bibles that try to minimize this serious distortion that has led to so many, many errors of interpretation.

 

[Carl Emerson]

This is very interesting to me, but unfortunately it's way off topic. It might be a good idea to start a new thread about how we read/hear and "digest" God's Word. Personally, I try to read the Bible in the format in which the "books" were written. There were (obviously) no chapters and verses to disrupt the literary pattern and flow of the writings. There are Bibles that try to minimize this serious distortion that has led to so many, many errors of interpretation.

Yes... well I meditatively read NASB for 5 years in a stretch - no other reading at all during that time. I referenced the Greek and Hebrew at times.

I understand something of what Pavel is saying and often find myself in agreement with him on the forum.

I think this is or two reasons.

First interpretation is from a macro understanding rather than an intense micro analysis.

Second I sense Pavel has encountered and has revelation of God's Character and this helps to retain focus on the thread of Grace throughout scripture.

Lastly The scripture while designed to be foolishness to the proud is in fact simple to the humble. For this reason I do not follow systematic intellectual rabbit holes because they imply the common man is incapable of understanding the treasures within.

Reading with an open heart is the key - and reading copious amounts which ministers to the reader.

Revelation carries a promise of blessing simply from the reading of the text.

I participated in a public reading of Revelation for this reason I think 5 of us read out loud for about 4 hours.

The public reading of scripture is a lost blessing that has strong scriptural support.

 

[Carl Emerson]

At one stage I was on staff at university and would publicly read aloud Ecclesiastes and Proverbs during the lunch break to students sitting on the river bank. Others were reading Milton, Blake and T S Elliot - so why not !!!
They thought I was a rabbi !!!

 

[Carl Emerson]

I would also refer readers again to Viva Christ Rey - the unique outpouring of God's Spirit among the poor in Mexico in the 60's.

The 'dump people' where being healed simply by the reading of scripture each morning.