Mortification of the Flesh

[Nick Moser]

What is the stance on other forms of mortification of the flesh? Could self-flagellating, wearing hairshirt and chains, etc. be a form of self-denial? I heard stories about Orthodox monks(I believe even the Desert Fathers practice this) who practised the actions listed above.

 

[Brightmoon]

I’m not sure if I’m supposed to be in this forum but for some people it’s a form of masochism and for others it might be extreme self denial.
The scientific or medical community will tell you that your body produces an opiate that forms in response to pain and I’m sure some people do get addicted to their own opiates ( the so called runners high)

 

[~Anastasia~]

What is the stance on other forms of mortification of the flesh? Could self-flagellating, wearing hairshirt and chains, etc. be a form of self-denial? I heard stories about Orthodox monks(I believe even the Desert Fathers practice this) who practised the actions listed above.

I wondered at the deeper theological points of this early on. Still do, now that you bring it up.

We aren't encouraged to do such things. I think it's safe to say it would be frowned on severely to undertake such a discipline on oneself. Too much risk of pride, opening oneself to delusion.

Much more experienced ascetics may employ stronger measures, such as lack of cushion for bed or kneeling, some that fasted to extreme, etc. I know of no instance of self-flagellation (but I don't know everything of course) and only one instance of chains which seemed rather odd. I think intentionally damaging the body as in self-flagellation would go against the dignity of the human person made in the image of God, so I think anything extreme would get serious criticism. And anything beyond the normal fasting, etc. recommended by the Church would be only at the direction of one's SF.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I’m not sure if I’m supposed to be in this forum but for some people it’s a form of masochism and for others it might be extreme self denial.
The scientific or medical community will tell you that your body produces an opiate that forms in response to pain and I’m sure some people do get addicted to their own opiates ( the so called runners high)

This is the Eastern Orthodox congregational forum, but we are glad to have you visit. Welcome.

That's actually an interesting point. That wouldn't be the goal of asceticism but if it DID happen, that would be very counterproductive. Another reason not to use such measures.

 

[Brightmoon]

I’ve got a biology degree . Those opiates are the reason you usually don’t feel small scratches and nicks . Even if they’re bleeding

 

[Brightmoon]

I’ll be honest my understanding of your faith stops with a very superficial history of Byzantium

 

[archer75]

I’ve got a biology degree . Those opiates are the reason you usually don’t feel small scratches and nicks . Even if they’re bleeding

How similar are they to the ones sold as drugs?

 

[Brightmoon]

It’s an opiate , same chemical class but produced by your own body. Your body produces somes chemicals naturally and ingesting or injecting artificial lab made chemicals causes your body to prune away the receptors for them so you don’t overdose. It’s when you stop and now the natural opiates are not enough because you don’t have enough receptors. That causes the craving. This also happens with nicotine addiction. The receptors are usually in your nerves and in your brain and gut.

It’s a personal thing but I also don’t have a high opinion of that 50 shades of grey behavior

 

[ArmyMatt]

to the OP, it has happened in our past, but that kind of suffering for Christ is a unique calling.

so it can happen even to the present day, but is rare and our understanding is different from what developed in the Middle Ages West

 

[Brightmoon]

Western Christians also sorta used do this also especially back in the Middle Ages and earlier. My particular Protestant sect would probably send you to a therapist. I can’t say that for all western Christian sects

 

[F.E.A.R.]

Can someone explain to me what is this Mortification of the Flesh. First time hearing about it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Can someone explain to me what is this Mortification of the Flesh. First time hearing about it.

causing physical pain to deny the self

 

[~Anastasia~]

To our visitors - I really want to be clear that our priests are NOT advocating self-flagellation to us in order to "mortifying the flesh"! I am reminded of middle-age paintings of I think some Catholic rites might have done this. That's NOT typical for Orthodoxy!

Most especially - we fast. Denying the desire of the body for particular foods for a time brings the flesh under subjection of the spirit, and helps in many other ways, such as being humbling and drawing our minds to our dependence on God and making us aware of the hunger of others, and so on.

In the same way, we recognize that over-indulgence in anything, or diving too deeply into pleasing the flesh in whatever form can be damaging to the soul. The ideal instead is a general kind of moderation (self-restraint) in all things. (Not that we don't indulge in things, but that we are able to restrain our indulgence rather than be ruled by it.) That's why I said that developing that opiate cycle in response to suffering would be counter-productive. It would essentially be the opposite of our intent.

And again, it's far too likely that someone would become proud of their "extreme asceticism" if that's what they were trying to do, which is again the opposite of the reason we would be doing it.

As Fr. Matt said, it could only be a unique calling. (To change the subject a bit, if anyone were interested, I find the idea of a "fool for Christ" to be the most interesting of a unique calling, and those have more recent examples.)

 

[Mark_Sam]

Yes, self-flagellation has occured in many instances in the Western Catholic tradition. Many great saints have been known to wear constantly-itching hairshirts and whipping themselves, or "using the discipline" as they put it: St. Catherine of Siena, St. Thomas More, St. Ignatius Loyola, St. Josemaria Escriva. Other forms of mortification have been practised as well: pope St. John Paul II was known for sleeping on the floor, then making his bed in the morning to make it look as if he had slept in the bed.

The wearing of chains is a symbol of being a slave of Jesus and Mary, often associated with St. Louis-Marie de Montfort, and these are more of a symbol than true mortification.

Extreme forms of mortification (hairshirt, cilice, self-flagellation) should only be done under guidance of a spiritual director. Actually, doing these things without the approval of a spritiual director might even be sinful. In the 1300's, the Catholic Church condemned the Flagellant movement as heresy because they were totally out of control.

So these mortifications are good spiritual practices ... but only for those who have that particular calling. Otherwise, for those without this calling, it will do more harm than good. As far as I know, extreme mortification is extremely rare in the Catholic Church today. And the few who practise it will go to great lengths to conceal and hide it, to avoid the sin of pride. And even then, it is very regulated: we talking about whipping your back while saying the Our Father, once a week. Or wearing a cilice/hairshirt for two hours at a time.

There are plenty of less extreme forms of mortification we all can do. And oftentimes, being kind and forgiving towards your fellow man can be a lot more difficult than simply lashing your own back for a minute.

 

[~Anastasia~]

being kind and forgiving towards your fellow man can be a lot more difficult than simply lashing your own back for a minute.

This is something we (Orthodox) are always encouraged to do alongside our fasts and is much more central in terms of discipline for us.

 

[Christman811]

What is the stance on other forms of mortification of the flesh? Could self-flagellating, wearing hairshirt and chains, etc. be a form of self-denial? I heard stories about Orthodox monks(I believe even the Desert Fathers practice this) who practised the actions listed above.

Any form of asceticism is aimed at mortifying the passions of the flesh, not the flesh itself. These are distinct notions and should not be confused.

Any ascetic labors should be done with discernment; otherwise, one will inflict harm to one's soul rather than purify it from vice. Thus, particularly prevalent within the monastic history of our Church, we see various forms of the ascetic practices that you listed above, but it should be emphasized that these things were done with spiritual discrimination and by no means should be undertaken by someone consumed with carnal zeal. For this reason, we often refer to great ascetics as athletes. Just as one should not attempt to lift beyond one's strength at the beginning stages of their training, lifting weights that require the strength and expertise of those who have trained for numerous years under guidance, one should not attempt these ascetic feats when they cannot even conquer their gluttony.

It is as St John Cassian says:

"AND so when the desires of the belly and of the palate have been by these considerations overcome, and when we have been declared, as in the Olympic contests, neither slaves of the flesh nor infamous through the brand of sin, we shall be adjudged to be worthy of the contest in higher struggles as well, and, leaving behind lessons of this kind, may be believed capable of entering the lists against spiritual wickednesses, against which only victors and those who are allowed to contend in a spiritual conflict are deemed worthy to struggle. For this is so to speak a most solid foundation of all the conflicts, viz.: that in the first instance the impulses of carnal desires should be destroyed. For no one can lawfully strive unless his own flesh has been overcome. And one who does not strive lawfully certainly cannot take a share in the contest, nor win a crown of glory and the grace of victory. But if we have been overcome in this battle, having been proved as it were slaves of carnal lusts, and thus displaying the tokens neither of freedom nor of strength, we shall be straightway repulsed from the conflicts with spiritual hosts, as unworthy and as slaves, with every mark of confusion. For 'every one that doeth sin is the servant of sin.' "