Mormons Heavenly is rather malicious when it comes to forgiveness

[He is the way]

*cough*


Mhm.

Also, the same apostle who wrote all of what you just quoted also wrote the following only one chapter after the one you are quoting:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

+++

So, y'know...it might be a bit more complex than "Just don't do it anymore".

Abba Anthony said to Abba Poemen, ‘This is the great work of a man: to always to take the blame for his own sins before God, and to expect temptation to his last breath.’

Paul gave up his sins and so should we. Nothing you posted takes away our responsibility to give up our sins.

 

[dzheremi]

Paul gave up his sins and so should we. Nothing you posted takes away our responsibility to give up our sins.

The fact that you apparently thought anything I posted would have been about "(taking) away our responsibility to give up our sins" just tells me that you don't actually read things before replying to them with irrelevant stuff.

There was a Mormon leader a few years ago who was shown on video to be telling students (I believe it was at BYU, but I can't remember) in some sort of lecture on Mormon apologetics "Don't answer the question they ask; answer the question they should have asked instead." In other words, obfuscate, deflect, and generally don't answer anything that would knock you off your preset answers.

Such wicked counsel seems to have taken deep root here.

 

[Rescued One]

The fact that you apparently thought anything I posted would have been about "(taking) away our responsibility to give up our sins" just tells me that you don't actually read things before replying to them with irrelevant stuff.

There was a Mormon leader a few years ago who was shown on video to be telling students (I believe it was at BYU, but I can't remember) in some sort of lecture on Mormon apologetics "Don't answer the question they ask; answer the question they should have asked instead." In other words, obfuscate, deflect, and generally don't answer anything that would knock you off your preset answers.

Such wicked counsel seems to have taken deep root here.

Robert L. Millet, speaking to the mission prep club at BYU, said:

• We aren't obligated to answer everybody's questions.
• You already know more about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than anybody who will attack you.
• Answer the right question.
• We never provide meat when milk will do. (He repeats this a couple of times.)

The Mormon Curtain - ROBERT L. MILLET

 

[twin.spin]

malicious: synonyms: wounding · cruel · unkind

With that definition in mind … with what alternative adjective could describe a human father who intentionally was so hard and so demanding that he made you feel unworthy of his love, his forgiveness, any blessings from him?

Then … this same human father would intentionally devise a plan that would allow you to obtain his love for you, his forgiveness, any blessings only if upon certain conditions … a plan that depends on your striving, using your potential to the utmost?

Would such a father be ... cruel? .... unkind? ........ wounding?

Biblical Christianity teaches a completely different heavenly Father. He gives us undeserved blessings; who continues to love us, bless us, provide and protect us even when we don’t deserve it.

We are totally acceptable to God because Jesus met all the conditions for us !

We have the positive assuredness right now of forgiveness and that we will live eternally in our Father’s presence because we are covered with Christ’s righteousness.

 

[dzheremi]

Robert L. Millet, speaking to the mission prep club at BYU, said:

• We aren't obligated to answer everybody's questions.
• You already know more about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than anybody who will attack you.
• Answer the right question.
• We never provide meat when milk will do. (He repeats this a couple of times.)

The Mormon Curtain - ROBERT L. MILLET

Thank you, as always. That is the guy. In fact, that is the very video I saw that reminded me of this teaching, though it wasn't from that website.

 

[Rescued One]

To attack our "repentance and forgivenss" process as somehow a diabolical malicious monster doctrine, tells me you know very little about Mormonism too.

I have never used the words malicious or monster in describing your religion. Joseph Smith on the other hand called my God a monster:

“Many men say there is one God; the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are only one God. I say that is a strange God anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization anyhow. All are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a giant or a monster.”
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372; History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476)

This forum is to discuss Mormonism with Mormons. You have taken this forum as an opportunity to expose people to what you think the Mormons are. You discuss very little, but preach a whole lot.

Most of my posts add true information about Mormonism as taught by your church leaders. This forum is actually for Christians to debate Mormons. So if the quotes I post expose Mormonism and a Christian wants to debate it, he or she can.

I don't think that is what is meant by "outreach". For you this forum is more "expose", than "outreach".

Debate involves a disagreement. Disagreement is definitely part of life and both parties can benefit. Mormons often disagree with me. So be it. I encourage people to do legitimate research. They should at least attempt to verify the quotes. I have a substantial pro-Mormon library on Mormonism. Not all of it is online.

Christians are children of light.

Ephesians 5 KJV
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

Ephesians 5 NIV
11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

John 3 NIV
20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.

Are you afraid of having your leaders' quotes exposed?

 

[Rescued One]

I am saying that a young person may not know that a mocha shake has coffee in it.

If they fear breaking the Word of Wisdom, they can ask as my Mormon boyfriend did when my aunt offered him a glass of grenadine milk. If you don't know the ingredients you ought to avoid, you should learn them. Do Mormons now count as sins unknowingly partaking of something?

 

[ViaCrucis]

You said: "The Law commands that we love. And if we love God then we should be obedient and obey His commandments. As it is written, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and all your strength"--and yet we do not. As it is also written, "There is no one righteous, no, not one" and "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"."

Our goal is to become like Jesus Christ. We may have sinned, but that does not mean we must continue to sin. The Bible states that we should no longer sin.:

(New Testament | Romans 6:1 - 12)

1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

And once again, the Opinio Legis. As such, see my previous posts.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

*cough*

List of Joseph Smith's wives - Wikipedia

Mhm.

Also, the same apostle who wrote all of what you just quoted also wrote the following only one chapter after the one you are quoting:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

+++

So, y'know...it might be a bit more complex than "Just don't do it anymore".

Abba Anthony said to Abba Poemen, ‘This is the great work of a man: to always to take the blame for his own sins before God, and to expect temptation to his last breath.’

Bingo.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Paul gave up his sins and so should we.

Do you know something about the Apostle that he himself didn't? St. Paul seemed to be under the impression that he was the "chief of sinners".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[He is the way]

The fact that you apparently thought anything I posted would have been about "(taking) away our responsibility to give up our sins" just tells me that you don't actually read things before replying to them with irrelevant stuff.

There was a Mormon leader a few years ago who was shown on video to be telling students (I believe it was at BYU, but I can't remember) in some sort of lecture on Mormon apologetics "Don't answer the question they ask; answer the question they should have asked instead." In other words, obfuscate, deflect, and generally don't answer anything that would knock you off your preset answers.

Such wicked counsel seems to have taken deep root here.

I gave you an answer to the scriptures you posted. I did not deflect at all. It is not that complex. Sin is wrong. Stop it. Sin no more:

(New Testament | 1 John 5:3)

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[He is the way]

If they fear breaking the Word of Wisdom, they can ask as my Mormon boyfriend did when my aunt offered him a glass of grenadine milk. If you don't know the ingredients you ought to avoid, you should learn them. Do Mormons now count as sins unknowingly partaking of something?

Satan sure is crafty trying to get his chains on youth to make them think his ways are something to be desired. Young minds are easier to persuade. Sadly we now have a drug and inappropriate contentography epidemic.

 

[Rescued One]

Interview for Temple Recommend October 2019

The newly revised questions will be distributed to Church leaders worldwide on Monday and are as follows:

1. Do you have faith in and a testimony of God, the Eternal Father; His Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost?

2. Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and of His role as your Savior and Redeemer?

3. Do you have a testimony of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

4. Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator and as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local leaders of the Church?

5. The Lord has said that all things are to be “done in cleanliness” before Him. Do you strive for moral cleanliness in your thoughts and behavior? Do you obey the law of chastity?

6. Do you follow the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ in your private and public behavior with members of your family and others?

7. Do you support or promote any teachings, practices, or doctrine contrary to those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

8. Do you strive to keep the Sabbath day holy, both at home and at church; attend your meetings; prepare for and worthily partake of the sacrament; and live your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

9. Do you strive to be honest in all that you do?

10. Are you a full-tithe payer?

11. Do you understand and obey the Word of Wisdom?

12. Do you have any financial or other obligations to a former spouse or to children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13. Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple, including wearing the temple garment as instructed in the endowment?

14. Are there serious sins in your life that need to be resolved with priesthood authorities as part of your repentance?

15. Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord’s house and participate in temple ordinances?

 

[Rescued One]

Satan sure is crafty trying to get his chains on youth to make them think his ways are something to be desired. Young minds are easier to persuade. Sadly we now have a drug and inappropriate contentography epidemic.

Young minds are easier to persuade when the parents are hypocrites or unbelievers or provokers at home.

Proverbs 22
6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Ephesians 6
4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

 

[He is the way]

Do you know something about the Apostle that he himself didn't? St. Paul seemed to be under the impression that he was the "chief of sinners".

-CryptoLutheran

Yes he WAS as he was against the followers of Christ. They were being rounded up and killed and Paul helped. All of that changed when Jesus Christ visited him.

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:10)

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

 

[He is the way]

Young minds are easier to persuade when the parents are hypocrites or unbelievers or provokers at home.

Proverbs 22
6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Ephesians 6
4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

That is true and unfortunately there are bad parents in every denomination. There are also good parents in every denomination. However, good parents can't always prevent their children from doing the wrong thing. Adam and Eve found that out.

 

[mmksparbud]

That is what we say also. "you are forgiven, then you act the part". If you do not act the part then are you still forgiven?
OR
Could it take days or weeks or years or centuries before you get around to acting the part? The forgiveness that Jesus gave was certainly based on "acting the part".

We say that "acting the part" is doing what you can to make amends for your sin. For instance, if you stole $100 from the wallet of a man, it would be part of the repentance and forgiveness process to return that $100 and make that man whole again. Is that a devilish undertaking or is that worthy of doing good to your neighbor? I say that is "acting the part". You may disagree, and that is OK, but please do not attack me for a good work as I "act the part" of sinning no more.

Let us live our religions as we think is proper. Thank you.

NO. you said you act the part and then are forgiven. Jesus never once said that. If you are forgiven, you are forgiven and Jesus wipes out the sin from you record. If you go out and commit the same sin all over again, it does not alter the fact you were forgiven for that 1st sin, God does not take back a forgiven sin. However, whatever new sin you commit is added to your record. That is how it works. When you are forgiven you place yourself in the hands of God and His grace. Out of love for Him and gratitude for what He has done, you live a proper life. He has already forgiven you, you accept that forgiveness and go one forgetting what is behind you, as Paul said, for God has forgotten it. You god doesn't do that, he holds on to the memory of that sin and keeps whacking you upside the head with it. Our God says He forgets it. That is a real God of love.

 

[twin.spin]

Do you know something about the Apostle that he himself didn't? St. Paul seemed to be under the impression that he was the "chief of sinners".

-CryptoLutheran

Paul also admitted in the present tense:

"For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do" Romans_7:19​

Speaking about unkind - Imagine if Mormonism's version of Heavenly Father were to further the wounded Paul by subjecting him to require "Mormonism's forgiveness" and the "Interview for Temple Recommend October 2019".

Instead Paul relied on the Biblical Christianity teaching that Heavenly Father gives us undeserved blessings; who continues to love us, bless us, forgives us, provide and protect us even when we don’t deserve it.

Paul needn't wait one second (let alone centuries) to be totally acceptable to God because Jesus met all the conditions for us !

 

[ViaCrucis]

Yes he WAS

"The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost." - 1 Timothy 1:15

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tampasteve]

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