Mormons Heavenly is rather malicious when it comes to forgiveness

[twin.spin]

I realize that Mormon apologists would not agree and say otherwise … but take this for example by LDS prophet Spencer Kimball on Mormons Heavenly Father's forgiveness:

Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works - many works - and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and "a broken heart and a contrite spirit." It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes.​

That's right, the Mormon Heavenly Father does not grant forgiveness merely for the asking.
What's more …there is no knowing how long, it depends ( as in centuries! ) before you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you.

Pretty malicious compared to the Biblical Lord and God where forgiveness is granted merely for the asking and where the positive assurance that sins are not remembered more. Biblical Christianity teaches that God forgives us freely because Jesus has already paid the entire debt of our sin.

"I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah_43:25

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." Hebrews_8:12

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Acts_10:43

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;" Ephesians_1:7

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:" Colosians_1:14

​

​

 

[dzheremi]

How incredibly odd that he should quote Psalm 50 (51 in the western numbering; 50 is in the Eastern, following the LXX) in the same passage in which he maintains that "many works" must be done for God to forgive you (maybe...eventually). I guess he didn't read the part directly before that where the psalmist prays "For if You desired sacrifice, I would have given it: You do not take pleasure in burnt offerings."

Hmmm...

 

[Ironhold]

Nutshell: You can't just say "I'm saved!" and treat that as a "get out of jail free" card. If you want to be forgiven, you have to show that you're a changed person.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't think that's it in a nutshell, no. Can you explain for us this very good observation made in the OP, and how it is supposed to work:

"there is no knowing how long, it depends ( as in centuries! ) before you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. And of course it all depends on you."

These two things taken together (which are both found in the quoted section: you don't know how long it could be, and yet it is also up to you how long it will be, which would seem to suggest that you do know, since you're in control of it...but anyway...) would seem to suggest that there actually are people who purposely take centuries to do whatever it is that they need to do to I suppose 'earn' their forgiveness. Is that the case, according to Mormonism?

 

[JohnAshton]

Good questions above.

This may help. I stumbled across it researching some of the questions.

https://www.vistax64.com › attachments › the-miracle-of-forgiveness-pdf

 

[Ophiolite]

I realize that Mormon apologists would not agree and say otherwise … but take this for example by LDS prophet Spencer Kimball on Mormons Heavenly Father's forgiveness:

Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works - many works - and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and "a broken heart and a contrite spirit." It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes.​

That's right, the Mormon Heavenly Father does not grant forgiveness merely for the asking.
What's more …there is no knowing how long, it depends ( as in centuries! ) before you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. And of course it all depends on you.

Pretty malicious compared to the Biblical Lord and God where forgiveness is granted merely for the asking and where the positive assurance that sins are not remembered more. Biblical Christianity teaches that God forgives us freely because Jesus has already paid the entire debt of our sin.

"I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah_43:25

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." Hebrews_8:12

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Acts_10:43

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;" Ephesians_1:7

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:" Colosians_1:14

​

​

If I understand you correctly you feel that requiring the supplicant for forgiveness to demonstrate sincerity is malicious. I shall write at once to the editors of the Oxford English Dictionary and have them add that meaning of the word to the next edition.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I realize that Mormon apologists would not agree and say otherwise … but take this for example by LDS prophet Spencer Kimball on Mormons Heavenly Father's forgiveness:

Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works - many works - and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and "a broken heart and a contrite spirit." It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes.​

That's right, the Mormon Heavenly Father does not grant forgiveness merely for the asking.
What's more …there is no knowing how long, it depends ( as in centuries! ) before you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. And of course it all depends on you.

Pretty malicious compared to the Biblical Lord and God where forgiveness is granted merely for the asking and where the positive assurance that sins are not remembered more. Biblical Christianity teaches that God forgives us freely because Jesus has already paid the entire debt of our sin.

"I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah_43:25

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." Hebrews_8:12

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Acts_10:43

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;" Ephesians_1:7

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:" Colosians_1:14

​

​

The man is preaching a false gospel and should not be listened to.

 

[Rescued One]

If I understand you correctly you feel that requiring the supplicant for forgiveness to demonstrate sincerity is malicious. I shall write at once to the editors of the Oxford English Dictionary and have them add that meaning of the word to the next edition.

I think you misunderstood the OP. The Mormon god is hardly merciful. Theirs is an entirely different gospel.

Our Bible says:

Romans 5
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Mormonism requires the individual to earn that blessing rather than for God to be merciful:

Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
Doctrine and Covenants 130

In Mormonism eternal life has to be earned:

Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, 1981, Enrichment G, p. 395

 

[Ophiolite]

I think you misunderstood the OP. The Mormon god is hardly merciful. Theirs is an entirely different gospel.

Well that is entirely possible. I recall making a mistake in 1995, so I am doubtless overdue for another.

However, I'm addressing these specific words in the OP:

Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works - many works - and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and "a broken heart and a contrite spirit." It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes.

I see nothing in the least malicious in this. It seems a reasonable position to take: demonstrate the sincerity of your supplication not just by word, but by deed and do so consistently and persistently.

Now it may well be, as you note, that the Mormon God is seen as lacking mercy. However, the quoted passage - the one I addressed - does nothing to support that view.

 

[Rescued One]

A covenant is a two-way promise, the conditions of which are set by God. When we enter into a covenant with God, we promise to keep those conditions. He promises us certain blessings in return. When we receive these saving ordinances and keep the associated covenants, the Atonement of Jesus Christ becomes effective in our lives, and we can receive the great blessing God can give us—eternal life (see D&C 14:7). Because keeping our covenants is essential to our happiness now and to eventually receiving eternal life, it is important to understand what we have promised our Heavenly Father (“Understanding our Covenants with God,” Ensign, July 2012, p. 22).

 

[Rescued One]

Well that is entirely possible. I recall making a mistake in 1995, so I am doubtless overdue for another.

However, I'm addressing these specific words in the OP:
I see nothing in the least malicious in this. It seems a reasonable position to take: demonstrate the sincerity of your supplication not just by word, but by deed and do so consistently and persistently.

Now it may well be, as you note, that the Mormon God is seen as lacking mercy. However, the quoted passage - the one I addressed - does nothing to support that view.

I haven't used the word malicious, but mercy has to be earned in Mormonism, and in the Bible God shows His mercy to us before we are made new creatures. Christianity isn't a DIY endeavor. God gives us faith, delivers us from the power of Satan, and makes us new creatures. As St. Paul said, "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

Also:

Ephesians 4
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

God bless!

 

[Ophiolite]

I haven't used the word malicious,

No, but the OP used it explicitly in the title of their thread and implicitly in the OP. Again, that is what I was addressing, not the "official" Mormon position on the matter. That I am largely ignorant of.

but mercy has to be earned in Mormonism, and in the Bible God shows His mercy to us before we are made new creatures. Christianity isn't a DIY endeavor. God gives us faith, delivers us from the power of Satan, and makes us new creatures. As St. Paul said, "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."

Also:

Ephesians 4
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

God bless!

We shall take that as read. However, it does nothing to counter my assertion that asking for demonstrations of sincerity in a plea for forgiveness is not malicious. Do you think it is? If not, then we are in agreement. If so perhaps you have some argument or evidence that would support that belief. I should be happy to consider it.

 

[public hermit]

Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works - many works - and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and "a broken heart and a contrite spirit." It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes

I didn't know this. Do they believe sin is a power under which humanity is bound? I thought they believed in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. How does that fit in with this idea that total repentance-I'm reading this as "perfection"-is possible? What's the point of the cross if "meeting all the requirements" is possible? Do they believe that intentions and desires are just as sinful as actions?

Maybe this post is not the place for all of these questions. This is new to me, so the thoughts just started to come.

 

[JohnAshton]

The man is preaching a false gospel and should not be listened to.

Would it not be more helpful for you to concentrate on your relationship with Jesus than worry about what you consider to be others' gospel failings. I don't see Mormon doctrine as 'malicious' anymore than I see OSAS as malicious.

 

[twin.spin]

Well that is entirely possible. I recall making a mistake in 1995, so I am doubtless overdue for another.

However, I'm addressing these specific words in the OP:

twin.spin said: ↑
Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works - many works - and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and "a broken heart and a contrite spirit." It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes.​

I see nothing in the least malicious in this. It seems a reasonable position to take: demonstrate the sincerity of your supplication not just by word, but by deed and do so consistently and persistently.

​

Now it may well be, as you note, that the Mormon God is seen as lacking mercy. However, the quoted passage - the one I addressed - does nothing to support that view.

This from Cambridge dictionary: (note the thesaurus: synonyms and related words)
_________________________________________________________
malicious:
adjective: intended to harm or upset other people

Thesaurus: synonyms and related words:

• acerbic, acerbity, acidly, backbite, backhanded, cruelty, cutthroat, fiendish, fiendishness, hard-hearted, nasty, pitiless, pitilessly, pitilessness, remorseless, unfeeling, ungenerous, ungenerously, unkind, unkindly

__________________________________________________________

Based on synonyms and related words, 'malicious' is no less an appropriate adjective deserving of the nature of anybody (let alone a god) that would make one grovell for forgiveness and\or let one wonder for centuries (plural) for that positive assurance.

Biblical Christianity teaches no such thing such concerning God or of Jesus.

 

[twin.spin]

Nutshell: You can't just say "I'm saved!" and treat that as a "get out of jail free" card. If you want to be forgiven, you have to show that you're a changed person.

Biblical Christianity teaches that God revealed the "get out of jail free" ….

"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." John_8:36​

 

[Ophiolite]

This from Cambridge dictionary: (note the thesaurus: synonyms and related words)
_________________________________________________________
malicious:
adjective: intended to harm or upset other people

Thesaurus: synonyms and related words:

• acerbic, acerbity, acidly, backbite, backhanded, cruelty, cutthroat, fiendish, fiendishness, hard-hearted, nasty, pitiless, pitilessly, pitilessness, remorseless, unfeeling, ungenerous, ungenerously, unkind, unkindly

__________________________________________________________

Based on synonyms and related words, 'malicious' is no less an appropriate adjective deserving of the nature of anybody (let alone a god) that would make one gravel for forgiveness and\or let one wonder for centuries (plural) for that positive assurance.

I fail to see how a requirement that a supplicant demonstrate their sincerity is something intended to harm, or upset someone. Rather it is matter of clearly stipulating what is required to receive forgiveness. I would apply the words responsible, caring, reasonable, fair, balanced to the requirment.

Being asked to demonstrate ones sincere regret through appropriate actions is hardly a request for grovelling. What is a wait of centuries compared with eternity?

Why do you think is is unreasonable that a person should demonstrate that they genuinely regret the actions for which they seek forgiveness?

Biblical Christianity teaches no such thing such concerning God or of Jesus.

Completely irrelevant to my point that there is nothing malicious about requesting a demonstration of sincerity.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Nutshell: You can't just say "I'm saved!" and treat that as a "get out of jail free" card. If you want to be forgiven, you have to show that you're a changed person.

The OP was not talking about salvation or "being saved". Whom do you have to "show that you're a changed person"?

 

[JohnAshton]

The OP was not talking about salvation or "being saved". Whom do you have to "show that you're a changed person"?

God, not man.

 

[He is the way]

The Bible states that repentance alone is not enough.

(New Testament | Matthew 3:7 - 8)

7 ¶ But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:


(New Testament | Acts 26:20)

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.