LDS Mormons Call Them Saving Ordinances

[BigDaddy4]

The bible and the BOM both have partial, limited external evidences from ancient ruins that tell you they are true, from an archaeological basis.

The BOM has no archaeological evidence of any value or significance to support it. Unlike the Bible, which has quite a bit.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I have looked at some Mormon apologetics on line that all examine every conceivable aspect of criticism of Mormonism. What I found rather disappointing was that they rely on usages such as "very likely," "professor X who is not a Mormon says Y is possible," "this is what the B0M refers to," "archeologists have discovered Z in Mexico, thus showing that what was in the BoM about the days of the Nephites and Lamanites is true," and similar grasping at straws. I feel bad for these Mormons. Every Mormon I have come in contact with is a nice, polite, sincere person, and it's tragic that they totally want to ignore using human logic at all.

I don't feel bad at all. I have examined every aspect of things, and weighed in, etc. I think it's silly when people just decide to feel bad for me.

If I were to look just at archeological evidence, I would throw out all Abrahamic faiths based on Genesis 1 alone.

 

[He is the way]

The Bible has made it clear that obedience to the law is "works" - Paul states clearly that works are "of the law".

For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin (Rom 3:20).

For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law (Rom 3:28).

Yet we know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified (Gal 2:16).

Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? (Gal 3:2)

Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? (Gal 3:5)

For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written, ‘Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them’ (Gal 3:10).

Contrast that against the Mormon church's false gospel which directly contradicts what the Bible says about works of the Law by saying "... all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." That's Satan's own lie - telling people that they can be saved in any part by their own works because it goes directly against the True Gospel of Christ.

You misunderstand the scriptures. While it is true that we are not justified by works, it is very clear that we can't be saved without them either. In fact we are saved by grace after all we can do. This fact is made very clear in the Bible:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:21)

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

(New Testament | Romans 3:31)

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

(New Testament | Romans 6:1 - 18)

1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:20 - 22)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[Duvduv]

Jane Doe, I'm not referring to biblical archeology. I am referring to the poor quality of Mormon apologetics about proof for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

 

[Peter1000]

The BOM has no archaeological evidence of any value or significance to support it. Unlike the Bible, which has quite a bit.

The key words of your statement is "of any value or significance to support it". You obviously do not believe in the BOM and therefore any evidence presented to you is not going to have "any value or significance to support it". So it is a waste of time to share that information with you, which BTW is substantial to me.

 

[Peter1000]

I've already been judged.

Romans 5
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift View attachment 233010 is of many offences unto justification.

Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit...

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 3
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 John 5
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Explain to me "the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus"

 

[Jane_Doe]

Jane Doe, I'm not referring to biblical archeology. I am referring to the nsibr quality of Mormon apologrtiap about proof for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

And if I were to look to men's apologetics of authenticity as my only validation of Truth, I would reject all Abrahamic faiths flat out based on Gen 1.

 

[Peter1000]

Yes, well they also claim that God is bound by His own Law.

It only makes sense that if God brought all laws into existence, he would be bound to those laws too. Otherwise all would be chaos, if some were bound and others were not. That is why God is the same yesterday, today and forever, because he knows his laws and lives by those laws. If this were not so it would be chaos every day. It would be like Greek mythology.

 

[Peter1000]

I don't feel bad at all. I have examined every aspect of things, and weighed in, etc. I think it's silly when people just decide to feel bad for me.

If I were to look just at archeological evidence, I would throw out all Abrahamic faiths based on Genesis 1 alone.

Duvduv, do you understand what Jane is saying to you. I will state it another way. If you need external data to prove everything, then you can throw out all of the Abrahamic faiths, of which Christianity is just 1 of them.

Why must you throw them out? Because there is no external evidence that proves that there was a creation by God, and that the prophets from Adam through Abraham even existed, except in the bible.

So for you it is a bad situation, that you need a sign of some sort to believe what the Holy Spirit is telling your living spirit inside of you. You apparently can not listen to the Holy Spirit that tells you that the bible is absolutely true, regardless of any external evidences available.

I believe the Bible and the BOM because of the witness of the Holy Spirit that they are true. When an archaeologist finds something to corroborate that witness, then I rejoice in that find. But if nothing is found, I am satisfied by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Duvduv]

Corrected above: "Jane Doe, I'm not referring to biblical archeology. I am referring to the poor quality of Mormon apologetics about proof for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon."
Anyway, she refuses to deal with the substance of these kinds of weak apologetics on the part of Mormon apologists on their websites.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Corrected above

Forum rules:
Flaming and Goading

• Quoting and then editing another members post to change the original meaning, commonly referred to as "fixed it for you" (FIFY), is considered goading.

https://www.christianforums.com/help/terms


Again, if I were to just look at scientific and archeological evidence, I would reject all Abrahamic faiths just based on Gen 1 flat out. Wouldn't even get to Gen 2, let alone any Book of Mormon stuff.

 

[Duvduv]

For heaven's sake. I was just correcting my own writing because of my phone's spelling mistakes. In any event, if substantive issues are to be trivialized, then just accept the claims of the divine origin of the Quran and there will be nothing to discuss at all!

 

[Jane_Doe]

For heaven's sake. I was just correcting my own writing because of my phone's spelling mistakes.

My apologies, I misunderstood.

In any event, if substantive issues are to be trivialized, then just accept the claims of the divine origin of the Quran and there will be nothing to discuss at all!

No one here is talking about the Quran.

 

[Rescued One]

Explain to me "the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus"

God bless you for your participation in this discussion.


The law of the Spirit is the authority and power of the Spirit; the law of sin is the authority and power of sin.

The law makes us aware of our guilt before God. Without the Spirit, we are guilty and condemned.

Romans 7
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

We can't produce fruit apart from Christ. The law of the Spirit is liberation from the power of sin.

Romans 8
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[Rescued One]

You misunderstand the scriptures. While it is true that we are not justified by works, it is very clear that we can't be saved without them either.

We are saved by faith in Christ's blood so that we can produce good works.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

In fact we are saved by grace after all we can do.

That is the Joseph Smith version which contradicts the Bible.

We are saved before all we can do, because apart from Him we can do nothing.

 

[BigDaddy4]

The key words of your statement is "of any value or significance to support it". You obviously do not believe in the BOM and therefore any evidence presented to you is not going to have "any value or significance to support it". So it is a waste of time to share that information with you, which BTW is substantial to me.

That's a weak argument. If you have actual evidence, present it. "Could be", "possible", "likely", etc. are not evidences, by the way.

The only reason I say "of any value or significance" is because there is no evidence that is unique to the BOM that exists. The BOM does reference Jesursalem, etc. which can be found in the Bible. And is only there because Joseph Smith plagiarized it, IMO.

 

[Duvduv]

Why are Mormons still working on apologetics about the Book of Abraham, which Joseph Smith got totally wrong? What does this mean?

 

[Jane_Doe]

@Duvduv , you keep jumping topics. It makes it hard to have a conversation.

 

[Duvduv]

@Duvduv , you keep jumping topics. It makes it hard to have a conversation.

My apologies. I was thinking this thread could cover various topics.

 

[Jane_Doe]

My apologies. I was thinking this thread could cover various topics.

It's the part where you talk about one topic, and then jump to another very soon (1-3 comments later) that makes have a conversation difficult. It's very jerky.