LDS Mormons Call Them Saving Ordinances

[He is the way]

After all you can do. Not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Sure it is:
(New Testament | Titus 1:15 - 16)

15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
(New Testament | Titus 2:6 - 7)

6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
(New Testament | Titus 2:14)

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

(New Testament | Matthew 5:16)

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

(New Testament | 1 Peter 2:11 - 12)

11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

(New Testament | Matthew 25:34 - 36)

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

 

[Rescued One]

Sure it is:
(New Testament | Titus 1:15 - 16)

15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
(New Testament | Titus 2:6 - 7)

6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
(New Testament | Titus 2:14)

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

(New Testament | Matthew 5:16)

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

(New Testament | 1 Peter 2:11 - 12)

11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

(New Testament | Matthew 25:34 - 36)

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Your verses aren't the Gospel. They reflect the fruits we bear when we have been united to Christ.

I especially like Titus 2:14 which explains what God does when He purifies unto Himself those who belong to Him.

Titus 2
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

To God be the glory!

Ephesians 3
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

 

[He is the way]

Your verses aren't the Gospel. They reflect the fruits we bear when we have been united to Christ.

I especially like Titus 2:14 which explains what God does when He purifies unto Himself those who belong to Him.

Titus 2
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

To God be the glory! View attachment 232918

Ephesians 3
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

The Bible lists several requirements for eternal life and the kingdom of heaven. We will be judged by our works:

(New Testament | Revelation 20:12 - 13)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

The Bible lists several requirements for eternal life and the kingdom of heaven. We will be judged by our works:

(New Testament | Revelation 20:12 - 13)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

You have yet to provide scripture that connects works to salvation. You have only connected works to judgment and fruits of salvation (as opposed to the basis/cause of salvation).

All men, when judged by works, are guilty and not worthy of eternal life. Salvation can only be through Christ Jesus. There is no work that a man can perform that adds anything at all to his salvation.

The Bible is perfectly clear on this. All your passages that you provided, when read in context, back up the Christian Gospel.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Mormonism denies this Gospel of Christ by saying that every man must perform works (including the "saving ordinances" Phoebe Ann listed in the OP) in order to partially earn their salvation. Mormonism says that salvation comes through Christ ONLY "after all you can do". Christianity says Salvation is a gift; mormonism says salvation is an assistance provided upon conditions of performing works being met.

This is the biggest way in which Mormonism is starkly different from Christianity. Mormonism is works-based, not Grace-based as Christianity is.

 

[Duvduv]

Can Mormons explain why there are so many problems with the integrity, of the so-called witnesses who only saw the two hundred pound golden plates with their spiritual eyes?
Do they explain why Smith worked from a seer stone and hat when he supposedly had the plates themselves?
Do they explain the corrections on the published Book of Mormon that cannot be compared to the plates because they were conveniently "returned to Moroni" the "angel"??

 

[He is the way]

You have yet to provide scripture that connects works to salvation. You have only connected works to judgment and fruits of salvation (as opposed to the basis/cause of salvation).

All men, when judged by works, are guilty and not worthy of eternal life. Salvation can only be through Christ Jesus. There is no work that a man can perform that adds anything at all to his salvation.

The Bible is perfectly clear on this. All your passages that you provided, when read in context, back up the Christian Gospel.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Mormonism denies this Gospel of Christ by saying that every man must perform works (including the "saving ordinances" Phoebe Ann listed in the OP) in order to partially earn their salvation. Mormonism says that salvation comes through Christ ONLY "after all you can do". Christianity says Salvation is a gift; mormonism says salvation is an assistance provided upon conditions of performing works being met.

This is the biggest way in which Mormonism is starkly different from Christianity. Mormonism is works-based, not Grace-based as Christianity is.

Yes we are saved by grace through faith and not of works because no matter how much we do we could not be saved. It is only through grace that we are saved. The Bible makes it perfectly clear that we are not saved by works. The Bible also makes it VERY CLEAR that we are not saved without WORKS either.

(New Testament | Ephesians 2:8 - 10)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

(New Testament | James 2:14 - 20)

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Here is a passage that proves that salvation does not come without works:

(New Testament | Matthew 25:34 - 46)

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[He is the way]

Can Mormons explain why there are so many problems with the integrity, of the so-called witnesses who only saw the two hundred pound golden plates with their spiritual eyes?
Do they explain why Smith worked from a seer stone and hat when he supposedly had the plates themselves?
Do they explain the corrections on the published Book of Mormon that cannot be compared to the plates because they were conveniently "returned to Moroni" the "angel"??

The witnesses held the plates. They did not weight 200 pounds:
(Book of Mormon | Preface 8 Witnesses:Heading - 1)

THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES

1 BE IT KNOWN unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

As Joseph became more gifted with revelation from the Holy Ghost he no longer needed the plates, or for that matter any written material, to finish dictating the Book of Mormon to his scribes. He was able to dictate most if not all of the Book of Mormon in just 65 days while in his early 20s. This is something that no other person has ever been able to accomplish.

I believe that the reason the plates were taken back is because we are to live by faith. It is the same reason that we don't see Jesus Christ. Jesus said:
(New Testament | Mark 8:11 - 12)

11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.
12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Yes we are saved by grace through faith and not of works because no matter how much we do we could not be saved. It is only through grace that we are saved. The Bible makes it perfectly clear that we are not saved by works. The Bible also makes it VERY CLEAR that we are not saved without WORKS either.

I agree with this. We are saved BY grace through faith and not of works and it is ONLY through grace that we are saved. We are NOT saved by works. We are not saved without works because our salvation results in good works as opposed to being caused by good works.

Now contrast that to the mormon doctrine that we are saved BY works, at least in part:

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
Articles of Faith 1

In the Church, an ordinance is a sacred, formal act performed by the authority of the priesthood. Some ordinances are essential to our exaltation. These ordinances are called saving ordinances. They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing. With each of these ordinances, we enter into solemn covenants with the Lord.
Ordinances

Mormonism declares that it is through both the Atonement of Christ AND "by obedience to the laws and ordinances" (i.e. works) that "all mankind may be saved". That is contradictory to the Gospel.

I'm kind of surprised that you as a mormon would go against the mormon version of gospel.

 

[Duvduv]

Why do people like to post their biased sources as support for empirical challenges?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Why do people like to post their biased sources as support for empirical challenges?

In Mormonism it is taught that what most would consider a bias is actually empirical evidence. For example, as "proof" that that Book of Mormon is true, mormons are taught to pray and get a "feeling", a "burning in the bosom" that it is true and to let that serve as empirical proof. They are not taught to look for actual empirical evidence such as actual third-party accounts of history, archaeology, etc. that would back up the BOM's claims. I think many mormons don't understand the difference between their biases and actual empirical evidence because they have been trained in this manner.

 

[He is the way]

I agree with this. We are saved BY grace through faith and not of works and it is ONLY through grace that we are saved. We are NOT saved by works. We are not saved without works because our salvation results in good works as opposed to being caused by good works.

Now contrast that to the mormon doctrine that we are saved BY works, at least in part:


Mormonism declares that it is through both the Atonement of Christ AND "by obedience to the laws and ordinances" (i.e. works) that "all mankind may be saved". That is contradictory to the Gospel.

I'm kind of surprised that you as a mormon would go against the mormon version of gospel.

I agree with this. We are saved BY grace through faith and not of works and it is ONLY through grace that we are saved. We are NOT saved by works. We are not saved without works because our salvation results in good works as opposed to being caused by good works.

Now contrast that to the mormon doctrine that we are saved BY works, at least in part:


Mormonism declares that it is through both the Atonement of Christ AND "by obedience to the laws and ordinances" (i.e. works) that "all mankind may be saved". That is contradictory to the Gospel.

I'm kind of surprised that you as a mormon would go against the mormon version of gospel.

I agree with this. We are saved BY grace through faith and not of works and it is ONLY through grace that we are saved. We are NOT saved by works. We are not saved without works because our salvation results in good works as opposed to being caused by good works.

Now contrast that to the mormon doctrine that we are saved BY works, at least in part:


Mormonism declares that it is through both the Atonement of Christ AND "by obedience to the laws and ordinances" (i.e. works) that "all mankind may be saved". That is contradictory to the Gospel.

I'm kind of surprised that you as a mormon would go against the mormon version of gospel.

Why do you believe that obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel are works? You do know that the laws and ordinances are necessary for salvation for most of us, right? We know that little children who die before the age of accountability are saved without obedience to the laws and ordinances through the mercy of Jesus Christ, but you and I need them. And as I have said many times we are not saved by works nor are we saved without them. The Bible has made this clear.

 

[Duvduv]

How long do the Mormons claim Smith held on to the plates? Why were there witnesses if he gave the plates back to Moroni??

 

[Ironhold]

Can Mormons explain why there are so many problems with the integrity, of the so-called witnesses who only saw the two hundred pound golden plates with their spiritual eyes?
Do they explain why Smith worked from a seer stone and hat when he supposedly had the plates themselves?
Do they explain the corrections on the published Book of Mormon that cannot be compared to the plates because they were conveniently "returned to Moroni" the "angel"??

FYI -

The estimates of the plates weighing several hundred pounds are based on:

1. The presumption that the plates would be 100% gold, which is not realistic as unalloyed gold is too soft for such a purpose

2. The presumption that it would be a solid volume of gold, when in reality the plates would have relief or otherwise be engraved and thus there'd be gaps between sheets.

Depending upon which set of dimensions you look at and what version of the tumbaga alloy you presume would have been used, the plates may have weighed as little as 90 pounds. I have full-on scoliosis (just got officially diagnosed on Thursday) and a blown knee yet I can still heft 80-pound bags of concrete mix; these people were farmers and laborers, so 90 pounds would have been nothing to them.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Why do people like to post their biased sources as support for empirical challenges?

Everyone has their own perspective, including me and you. That's nothing you can get away from.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Why do you believe that obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel are works? You do know that the laws and ordinances are necessary for salvation for most of us, right? We know that little children who die before the age of accountability are saved without obedience to the laws and ordinances through the mercy of Jesus Christ, but you and I need them. And as I have said many times we are not saved by works nor are we saved without them. The Bible has made this clear.

The Bible has made it clear that obedience to the law is "works" - Paul states clearly that works are "of the law".

For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin (Rom 3:20).

For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law (Rom 3:28).

Yet we know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified (Gal 2:16).

Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? (Gal 3:2)

Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? (Gal 3:5)

For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse. For it is written, ‘Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them’ (Gal 3:10).

Contrast that against the Mormon church's false gospel which directly contradicts what the Bible says about works of the Law by saying "... all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel." That's Satan's own lie - telling people that they can be saved in any part by their own works because it goes directly against the True Gospel of Christ.

 

[Peter1000]

In Mormonism it is taught that what most would consider a bias is actually empirical evidence. For example, as "proof" that that Book of Mormon is true, mormons are taught to pray and get a "feeling", a "burning in the bosom" that it is true and to let that serve as empirical proof. They are not taught to look for actual empirical evidence such as actual third-party accounts of history, archaeology, etc. that would back up the BOM's claims. I think many mormons don't understand the difference between their biases and actual empirical evidence because they have been trained in this manner.

What do you think is the most important:

1) a testimony based on the Holy Spirit telling you something is true?
OR
2) a testimony based on external evidences from ancient ruins that something is true?

The bible and the BOM both have partial, limited external evidences from ancient ruins that tell you they are true, from an archaeological basis.

Is it absolutely necessary to have a complete archaeological record in order for a person to make a determination that the Bible and the BOM is true?

 

[Rescued One]

The Bible lists several requirements for eternal life and the kingdom of heaven. We will be judged by our works:

(New Testament | Revelation 20:12 - 13)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I've already been judged.

Romans 5
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit...

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 3
14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

1 John 5
13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[Rescued One]

I agree with this. We are saved BY grace through faith and not of works and it is ONLY through grace that we are saved. We are NOT saved by works. We are not saved without works because our salvation results in good works as opposed to being caused by good works.

Now contrast that to the mormon doctrine that we are saved BY works, at least in part:


Mormonism declares that it is through both the Atonement of Christ AND "by obedience to the laws and ordinances" (i.e. works) that "all mankind may be saved". That is contradictory to the Gospel.

I'm kind of surprised that you as a mormon would go against the mormon version of gospel.

Also:

Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

 

[Duvduv]

I have looked at some Mormon apologetics on line that all examine every conceivable aspect of criticism of Mormonism. What I found rather disappointing was that they rely on usages such as "very likely," "professor X who is not a Mormon says Y is possible," "this is what the B0M refers to," "archeologists have discovered Z in Mexico, thus showing that what was in the BoM about the days of the Nephites and Lamanites is true," and similar grasping at straws. I feel bad for these Mormons. Every Mormon I have come in contact with is a nice, polite, sincere person, and it's tragic that they totally want to ignore using human logic at all.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Also:

Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.

Yes, well they also claim that God is bound by His own Law.