LDS Mormons Call Them Saving Ordinances

He is the way said:

You misunderstand the scriptures. While it is true that we are not justified by works, it is very clear that we can't be saved without them either.

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We "can't be saved without [works]" in the sense that we can't be saved and not exhibit our transformation in good works. We do BECOME saved through faith by hearing and NOT of works. After we have become saved our works will exhibit that transformation. If our works do not show our transformation then there is a likelihood that we have not become saved. However, even after salvation, we do not become sinless. Our good works increase but we still will sin. "All we can do" is never enough - it is impossible for us to "do" anything that helps our salvation in any way. Our works only validate our salvation but they don't add one iota to it.

He is the way said:

In fact we are saved by grace after all we can do. This fact is made very clear in the Bible:

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No, this assertion is never made in the Bible at all. Every scripture you quoted fails to support that assertion.

In fact, that assertion that "we are saved by grace after all we can do" is from the mormon religion. Furthermore, that statement is illogical according to the Biblical definition of Grace, which is unmerited, a "gift". Saying that "grace" comes "after all that we can do" is like telling someone you're giving them a free "gift" but only "after all that they can pay." It would be like saying, "Hey, for your birthday I'm buying you a brand new Mercedes-Benz!!! Completely Free - but only after all you can pay!!!" Sounds silly because it is foolish - it is self-contradictory.

The mormon concept of "grace" is non-grace. It is a kind of assistance but not a free gift by any means. It is to be earned, merited. The mormon god says "First do everything you can, and once you show me that you've done that, only THEN will I provide you with my 'grace' to make up for whatever you weren't able to do."

The OP of this thread directly provides evidence that the mormon religion teaches that these works of "obedience to laws and ordinances" must be performed in order to receive salvation.

The thing that confuses me is that this is what your religion teaches, yet you seem to want to deny it. Why is that?

ArmenianJohn said:

We "can't be saved without [works]" in the sense that we can't be saved and not exhibit our transformation in good works. We do BECOME saved through faith by hearing and NOT of works. After we have become saved our works will exhibit that transformation. If our works do not show our transformation then there is a likelihood that we have not become saved. However, even after salvation, we do not become sinless. Our good works increase but we still will sin. "All we can do" is never enough - it is impossible for us to "do" anything that helps our salvation in any way. Our works only validate our salvation but they don't add one iota to it.


No, this assertion is never made in the Bible at all. Every scripture you quoted fails to support that assertion.

In fact, that assertion that "we are saved by grace after all we can do" is from the mormon religion. Furthermore, that statement is illogical according to the Biblical definition of Grace, which is unmerited, a "gift". Saying that "grace" comes "after all that we can do" is like telling someone you're giving them a free "gift" but only "after all that they can pay." It would be like saying, "Hey, for your birthday I'm buying you a brand new Mercedes-Benz!!! Completely Free - but only after all you can pay!!!" Sounds silly because it is foolish - it is self-contradictory.

The mormon concept of "grace" is non-grace. It is a kind of assistance but not a free gift by any means. It is to be earned, merited. The mormon god says "First do everything you can, and once you show me that you've done that, only THEN will I provide you with my 'grace' to make up for whatever you weren't able to do."

The OP of this thread directly provides evidence that the mormon religion teaches that these works of "obedience to laws and ordinances" must be performed in order to receive salvation.

The thing that confuses me is that this is what your religion teaches, yet you seem to want to deny it. Why is that?

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The Bible states that there are many stipulations regarding life eternal and the kingdom of heaven. Keeping the commandments is one of them:
(New Testament | John 17:3)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(New Testament | 1 John 2:4)

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10)

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

(New Testament | John 14:15 - 21)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

(New Testament | John 14:23)

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

(New Testament | John 14:12)

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Phoebe Ann said:

We've explained those verses numerous times. We love Him because He first loved us. Keeping the commandments is the result of the new birth as ArmenianJohn just told you.

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I hope you love your neighbor as yourself, some Christians don't.

He is the way said:

The Bible states that there are many stipulations regarding life eternal and the kingdom of heaven. Keeping the commandments is one of them:
(New Testament | John 17:3)

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(New Testament | 1 John 2:4)

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 5:10)

10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

(New Testament | John 14:15 - 21)

15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

(New Testament | John 14:23)

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

(New Testament | John 14:12)

12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

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All the verses you provided back up that keeping His commandments is the product of salvation, not a stipulation that salvation is based upon. The only reason you have it twisted that it's a stipulation is because mormonism has taught you that through non-Biblical doctrines and sources.

ArmenianJohn said:

All the verses you provided back up that keeping His commandments is the product of salvation, not a stipulation that salvation is based upon. The only reason you have it twisted that it's a stipulation is because mormonism has taught you that through non-Biblical doctrines and sources.

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I gave you Biblical sources, here are some more:
(New Testament | John 12:48 - 50)

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
(New Testament | Romans 6:22 - 23)

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(New Testament | Mark 10:17 - 19)

17 ¶ And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 14:21)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
(New Testament | Matthew 7:19 - 20)

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

(New Testament | Matthew 25:26 - 30)

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Phoebe Ann said:

What denomination teaches that followers of Christ don't love their neighbors?

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True followers of Christ will be as the good Samaritan and not pass by the needy on the other side of the street when they see them:
(New Testament | James 4:17)

17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Phoebe Ann said:

You ignored my question. True followers are the only followers of Christ.

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Are all televangelists true followers of Christ? Do you consider them to be Christians?

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-new...llowers-for-54m-for-private-jet-1244915267554

What does that have to do with Phoebe Ann's post? She says "True followers are the only followers of Christ" and you respond with "Are televangelists true followers of Christ?" Was she talking about televangelists?

dzheremi said:

What does that have to do with Phoebe Ann's post? She says "True followers are the only followers of Christ" and you respond with "Are televangelists true followers of Christ?" Was she talking about televangelists?

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I think he was trying to probe in order to check the limits of the statement.

He is the way said:

I gave you Biblical sources, here are some more:
(New Testament | John 12:48 - 50)

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
(New Testament | Romans 6:22 - 23)

22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(New Testament | Mark 10:17 - 19)

17 ¶ And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 14:21)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
(New Testament | Matthew 7:19 - 20)

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

(New Testament | Matthew 25:26 - 30)

26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

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The Bible passages that you cut and paste do not support your assertion that salvation comes "after all we can do". In fact, they almost all directly support the Christian Gospel which says we are saved by Grace through faith and NOT of works because works are a RESULT of salvation and in no way a CAUSE.

Repeatedly cutting and pasting Bible verses that don't support the mormon doctrine isn't helping your argument in this thread.

Only mormonism says salvation is by works (with a little assist from "grace" which, therefore, is not actually "grace").

The mormon gods are stingy taskmasters who don't know what grace is.

ArmenianJohn said:

The Bible passages that you cut and paste do not support your assertion that salvation comes "after all we can do". In fact, they almost all directly support the Christian Gospel which says we are saved by Grace through faith and NOT of works because works are a RESULT of salvation and in no way a CAUSE.

Repeatedly cutting and pasting Bible verses that don't support the mormon doctrine isn't helping your argument in this thread.

Only mormonism says salvation is by works (with a little assist from "grace" which, therefore, is not actually "grace").

The mormon gods are stingy taskmasters who don't know what grace is.

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Then you do not understand the Bible or God. Your dead faith will not save you. The grace of Jesus Christ is the atonement. Jesus is the only way back to the Father. Grace covers the sins of the truly repentant who have Godly sorrow.

dzheremi said:

What does that have to do with Phoebe Ann's post? She says "True followers are the only followers of Christ" and you respond with "Are televangelists true followers of Christ?" Was she talking about televangelists?

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Are you saying that televangelists are not true followers of Christ? I was trying to find out what Phoebe Ann meant by true followers of Christ when I commented on Christians. Does she mean all Christians who believe they are saved?

He is the way said:

Then you do not understand the Bible or God. Your dead faith will not save you. The grace of Jesus Christ is the atonement. Jesus is the only way back to the Father. Grace covers the sins of the truly repentant who have Godly sorrow.

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I do understand the Bible. It doesn't say anything about works being a "stipulation" for salvation. You said that because that's what your mormon religion has taught you.

In this post you conveniently left out the "stipulation". Doesn't matter, you've established and repeated your belief in earned "grace" (in quotes because that's not actual Grace when you have to earn it in any way).

"After all you can do" is a lie - it is Satan's lie and mormonism packages it up in an LDS (TM) corp sales brochure. Satan tells that lies through so many anti-Christian religions - the lie that one must be "good" or "worthy" to be "rewarded".

Only Christianity says that man CANNOT be good or worthy enough to be rewarded. Christianity says (and you even pasted this verse earlier) that "the wages of sin is death" and that "all have sinned"; in other words, nobody deserves ANY grace and CANNOT deserve ANY grace by what they do. Grace is a GIFT (free, no strings attached, not earned or paid for in ANY way) and God gives that gift. It is only up to each individual to accept or reject that gift.

Those who accept God's Grace and become "saved" are transformed into New Creations (again, this is upon receiving salvation, not a precursor to it) and they will THEN display the fruits of the Spirit. They will THEN - AFTERWARDS - perform good works as an outcome of the salvation they have already received as a 100% free gift from Christ.

Feel free to keep going - each time I respond to you it gives me another chance to provide the True Gospel as well as highlighting the lies in the mormon teaching for the benefit of those reading this thread.

ArmenianJohn said:

I do understand the Bible. It doesn't say anything about works being a "stipulation" for salvation. You said that because that's what your mormon religion has taught you.

In this post you conveniently left out the "stipulation". Doesn't matter, you've established and repeated your belief in earned "grace" (in quotes because that's not actual Grace when you have to earn it in any way).

"After all you can do" is a lie - it is Satan's lie and mormonism packages it up in an LDS (TM) corp sales brochure. Satan tells that lies through so many anti-Christian religions - the lie that one must be "good" or "worthy" to be "rewarded".

Only Christianity says that man CANNOT be good or worthy enough to be rewarded. Christianity says (and you even pasted this verse earlier) that "the wages of sin is death" and that "all have sinned"; in other words, nobody deserves ANY grace and CANNOT deserve ANY grace by what they do. Grace is a GIFT (free, no strings attached, not earned or paid for in ANY way) and God gives that gift. It is only up to each individual to accept or reject that gift.

Those who accept God's Grace and become "saved" are transformed into New Creations (again, this is upon receiving salvation, not a precursor to it) and they will THEN display the fruits of the Spirit. They will THEN - AFTERWARDS - perform good works as an outcome of the salvation they have already received as a 100% free gift from Christ.

Feel free to keep going - each time I respond to you it gives me another chance to provide the True Gospel as well as highlighting the lies in the mormon teaching for the benefit of those reading this thread.

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The lie is that you don't believe you need to keep the commandments. If you don't love Christ then don't keep them. If you don't want to know God then don't keep them. If you don't want eternal life don't keep the commandments.

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
(New Testament | Mark 10:17 - 19)

17 ¶ And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

He is the way said:

The lie is that you don't believe you need to keep the commandments. If you don't love Christ then don't keep them. If you don't want to know God then don't keep them. If you don't want eternal life don't keep the commandments.

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Yes, and what commandments did Christ our God give us? They weren't the Mormon "saving ordinances". Christ our God said "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment, and the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40; emphasis added)

In other words, doing both of these is obeying the law as our Lord and Savior taught it and lived it (obviously). So we can't do any better or anything else that is good by following some other interpretation (as the errant Jews of His time or today who do not accept Him, but still follow the law of Moses, not knowing that it has been fulfilled), or some other actual set of laws or ordinances, as in Mormonism.

That's the thing that a lot of people (not just Mormons) do not seem to understand: Christ, having fulfilled the law, made it from then completely useless as a means of attaining salvation. Christ Himself is the means -- not anything that we do, as though we can say to Him "But Lord, I went to liturgy, and I prayed, and I did this, and I did that!" That's not a rebuke of any of those things; obviously, it is good to go to liturgy, and to fast, and to pray, and so on. But if we begin mistaking doing those things with being saved, then we have lost our focus on the One Who came and saved us such that we are no longer under the law, and hence no longer ought to have such a dry, mechanical approach to our faith. For sure, we are being saved, and (for instance) receiving His Holy Body and Blood in communion at and with the Church is necessary for salvation, as He said "whoever eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:54, after saying that not doing so means that you have no life in you), but the same Holy Bible warns us that it is possible to receive the same to our damnation (1 Corinthians 11:29), so again we cannot be so mechanical as to say "I have received the Lord's Body and Blood, and therefore I am saved." You have life in you, yes, but your salvation -- everyone's salvation -- is to be worked out with fear and trembling. So if you're going to say "after all that you can do", you better be meaning "working out your salvation our with fear and trembling", as that actually is in the Bible (Philippians 2:12), whereas this "after all that you can do" business is not.

But we know that Mormons do not mean that. They mean "Go to our super-exclusive special temple and perform the ritual there" and other similar things. There is no communion in there. (Yes, I checked. So sue me.) So what good is it? It is cannibalized Bible stories combined with things stolen from the Masons. And your other "works" involve being nice and helpful in a social sense. No doubt that's not a bad thing, but that's not working out your own salvation, or else people could "nice" their way into heaven, which we know is not true. For sure the heresiarchs such as Arius, Nestorius, and so on had friends and alliances and acquaintances, but what does that profit them? What does it profit any man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?

And when you perform these ordinances, you are not looking after your soul. You are not working on your salvation. We learn from the scriptures and the fathers (particularly the desert fathers and mothers, when it comes to topics like this) what it means to care for the soul, and it is nothing like the Mormon idea of works. There is no "after all you can do", there's only the struggle itself and the guidance to live it, and it comes from a place of experience of the risen Christ and the ascetic struggle that He lived for us in fasting and praying in the desert for 40 days and 40 nights, and defeating the devil, not weird Masonic rituals.

Abba Ammonas (Amun to the Copts), the successor of Abba Anthony, the Father of the Monks, counsels us as follows:

And if you see your heart weighed down temporarily, bring your soul before you and question it until it becomes fervent again and is set on fire in God. For the prophet David, too, on seeing his heart weighed down, said, 'I have poured out my heart by myself; I have remembered the days of old, and meditated on all Your works; I have lifted up my hands unto You; my soul thirsts after You as does a thirsty land.' This is what David did when he saw his soul grow cold, until he had made it fervent again; and he received the divine sweetness both by day and by night. Do this, then, my beloved, and you will grow, and God will reveal to you great mysteries.

+++

This is it. The Christian life is the internal ascetic struggle in which we are purified by bringing the body under the soul's control, submitting all that we are to God, just as Christ our God -- the perfect man and Holy God, of one essence with the Father while sharing 100% with us the humanity -- did not consider equality with God the Father a thing to be held onto, but released it and emptied Himself, and took the form of a servant, and suffered and died and rose again in the glorious resurrection, fulfilling the law on our behalf.

So we have no law to follow but those that He gave to us (read: we are not bound by the Mosaic law. as He as fulfilled it and brought to us the true way to salvation, through and in Him), as they are likewise a matter of our internal cleansing, renewal (making our souls "on fire in God", as Abba Amun puts it), and submission, that when we love God and our neighbor, we show forth the light that is within us. At that level I'm sure Mormons will say "Hallelujah! We believe the same", but notice that this is all without any of the 'ordinances' that you say are still necessary (leaving aside the historical fact that the particular pattern followed by the Mormons did not exist until Joseph Smith made it). They are not necessary. I can say that yes, I go liturgy and such precisely as part of the process of working out my salvation, but for all the reasons I have already mentioned, it would be wrong for me to say "I go to liturgy, therefore _____" -- making some kind of statement about being saved because look what I'm doing; No! No...that's not right at all. At liturgy too, as in all places and times, I must work to awaken my soul...it's not about "I'm here, so therefore I'm doing a work for my salvation. Look at me go!" It's about "I'm here; I present myself before my Lord Who is among us in hopes that He will have mercy upon me and upon His gathered assembly because we are all in the same place, in a way: working out our salvation, begging that we be worthy to receive Him even though we know we are not, but that without Him we have no life in us." Does that sound like something we are doing, or is it something that He is doing? Sure, we have to show up because the liturgy is at a certain place and time because we live in the physical world where...things happen in places ...but if you look at the liturgical text, you'll see that it is all calling upon God, that He come and be among us, that He answer our petitions, that He nourish us and enliven our souls with His life-giving blood and and body. Even the priest who stands before the altar and calls upon the Holy Spirit directly in the Epiclesis also admits that he is the chief of sinners. We can do nothing of ourselves. God can do, and does do, everything.

This is the understanding of all Christianity, by the way. This is not some broadly Orthodox or particularly Egyptian stance, even though I have quoted a father most connected to that tradition. Witness, for instance, this Mozarabic hymn "Per Gloriam Nominis Tui", preserved in the 1500 AD reconstruction of the Mozarabic liturgy of one Fr. Cisneros (the Mozarabic liturgy was completed roughly a century before the Arab invasion, so we can assume that it must date back to around the 7th century, if not earlier, as the Visigoths turned from Arianism in 589 after the conversion of their king Reccared I). The Mozarabs were Western Christians of the Iberian peninsula, and yet see how their traditional prayers match this understanding:


The lyric in English is:

Through the glory of your Name, O Christ, Son of the living God, And through the intercession of the holy Virgin Mary, And the blessed James, and all your saints, Assist and have mercy on your unworthy servants; And be in our midst, O our God, Who lives and reigns to the ages of the ages. Thanks be to God!

I want you to notice that it is a petition that through God's glory XYZ should happen, and it even directly asks "and be in our midst, O our God".

There's no "after all that you can do" in here, either. That's simply not Christianity, and there's nothing you can post that will make it so.