Mormonism

[MormonFriend]

And OBTW if anyone quotes me out-of-context, I certainly have a right to respond, i.e. "The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." You might want to remember that the next time you get your draws all in a twist because I respond to a post.

I thought your quote was rather profound. I believed that you would be honored. I certainly did not claim originality on it. I am sorry if you had a copyright on it, I had no idea. It has a wide generic application, so I don't know how it can be used out of context. Its message is straight forward. Augistine said: "However, since the BOM makes extraordinary historical claims, there should be historical evidence in it's support. But there is none."

Do you believe it is out of context to say; "The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" in this instance? (I wonder if Dylan would object to your use of his lyrics in this context?)

Are you testing me to see if I know what context means? Maybe I don't know in a full sense, since language is not my trade. But from what I do know of context, you not only improperly quoted me, but the context of your application was anything but my context.

Excuse me? Do you remember this post from the previous page in this thread. What is a reference to Conquistadores if not the "the necessity of history and past evidences?"

I said in full:
My post steers away from the necessity of history and past evidences as a means to understand doctrines.
My reference to the Conquistadores had nothing to do with understanding doctrine.

 

[MormonFriend]

Identify the post and I will give you more answer than you can handle.

As I said, I have since lost interest and also I am spending time with others on issues, so I have more than I can handle already.
There is only one post on this entire forum that I have not addressed and that only because I do not have access to the necessary sources.
If that be true, then I concede that my protest was out of line.


And OBTW it ain't your post.

Of course it tain't. It ain't my fourm either. That I was awares of this was well demonstrated when I said: "Perhaps irritated and wanting you to go away. One can only wish."

 

[Der Alte]

Identify the post and I will give you more answer than you can handle.

As I said, I have since lost interest and also I am spending time with others on issues, so I have more than I can handle already.

As I said blowing smoke. But just for grins I will look at all your posts for the last several days and see if any are in response to me that I have not replied to. Wanna make a little bet what I will find?

There is only one post on this entire forum that I have not addressed and that only because I do not have access to the necessary sources.

If that be true, then I concede that my protest was out of line.

And OBTW it ain't your post.

Of course it tain't. It ain't my fourm either. That I was awares of this was well demonstrated when I said: "Perhaps irritated and wanting you to go away. One can only wish."

Do you have to work at being this obtuse or does it come naturally? Do you understand the concept of in-context? This sentence was in a paragraph and referred back to what immediately preceded it, not standing alone as you have it. Perhaps you can understand this, “The only post I have deliberately not responded to is, not one of your posts but, a post which requires sources I do not have at my disposal.

Augistine said: "However, since the BOM makes extraordinary historical claims, there should be historical evidence in it's support. But there is none."

Do you believe it is out of context to say; "The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" in this instance?

Yes it is out of-context. This is no different than saying, “There might be little green men from Mars, the lack of evidence, etc.” Or “There could be such creatures as Bigfoot, the absence of evidence etc.”

As I said that phrase is not an excuse to validate anything and everything the mind can conceive. I gave an example of a valid use of the phrase, concerning the women at the tomb. Now who is not reading posts? I won’t bother repeating it, or giving another example, since you don’t appear to read half of what I post.

Amended to add: I have reviewed all of your posts for the past three weeks there is not one single post in response to me that I have not replied to. There is one post dated Feb 27 which I did not reply to, but there was actually nothing to reply to, you only repeated a previous post that I had already addressed.

OTOH I found this post, of mine, from a day or two ago responding to you which you never bothered to reply to. Those who live in glass houses. . .

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1976366&postcount=142

 

[MormonFriend]

OTOH I found this post, of mine, from a day or two ago responding to you which you never bothered to reply to. Those who live in glass houses. . .

http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1976366&postcount=142http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1976366&postcount=142http://www.christianforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=1976366&postcount=142

See at the end of your link =142 ? that means your post was the 142nd post on that thread. Did you see post 143? Granted I did not answer you yet, but said I will try. I also complimented the points you raised. That sounds like a reply to me!

Your remarks are offensive and incredulous. I have told you in a previous post that "my thought process is slower than average." I guess I am so "obtuse" that I had to look the word up. But for the record, I do have Tourette's Syndrome, which often includes many lacking normalities such as ADD. Fortunately it doesn't affect the workings of my heart, because that is where true understanding comes from. I tend to feel the spirit of what people say instead of disecting their words and telling them what they said, even at their protests of the interpretation.
I surmise that our attempts to communicate are on different frequencies.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

See at the end of your link =142 ? that means your post was the 142nd post on that thread. Did you see post 143? Granted I did not answer you yet, but said I will try. I also complimented the points you raised. That sounds like a reply to me!

Your remarks are offensive and incredulous. I have told you in a previous post that "my thought process is slower than average." I guess I am so "obtuse" that I had to look the word up. But for the record, I do have Tourette's Syndrome, which often includes many lacking normalities such as ADD. Fortunately it doesn't affect the workings of my heart, because that is where true understanding comes from. I tend to feel the spirit of what people say instead of disecting their words and telling them what they said, even at their protests of the interpretation.
I surmise that our attempts to communicate are on different frequencies.

MF, I am sorry you have Tourettes, I have a friend with Tourettes and I know just from talking with him that it is not an easy thing to live with. I truly am sorry you have it. However, I do feel that I need to say that I think it is a low blow to use your syndrome as a way to gain sympothy from the "crowd". Perhaps that is not what you intended but that is how it came across.

Grace

 

[vanshan]

It is clear from the posts from LDS adherents here that a certain amount of deception has clouded their minds. They have been taught by their leaders how to defend their belief against almost every argument posed by the outside. Why? Because their is so much to argue against. They have to teach their flocks how to answer criticism or all the flock would leave to submit to Christ our true Shepherd.

Joseph Smith had a criminal record, which they just say was persecution -- if they choose to believe this who can argue with that? There is no grounds but faith to make them think he was being persucuted or the charges were false.

Second, Joeseph claimed the mysteriously missing tablets of the Book of Mormon were written in Reformed Egyptian - - a completely made up language that never existed. Linguists know this is false, but the Mormons believe it by faith with no earthly evidence.

We know large portions of the Book of Mormon were plagarised, or at least based on a fictional work (which I forget the title of and I'm at work where I can't look it up) written not long before Smith "wrote/discovered" the Book of Mormon.

You cannot believe a new gospel based on fabrications of someone of a questionable reputation, but you can't argue with Mormons because they are sick in the sin of delusion. I used to be charismatic, but I humbled myself and admitted I have been guilty of believing and teaching false things. Mormons need to do the same. I have found in Orthodoxy the true faith of Christ preserved unchanged by time or trends. For info on Eastern Orthodoxy look at orthodoxinfo.com, if you are interested.

 

[emerald Dragon]

It is clear from the posts from LDS adherents here that a certain amount of deception has clouded their minds. They have been taught by their leaders how to defend their belief against almost every argument posed by the outside. Why? Because their is so much to argue against. They have to teach their flocks how to answer criticism or all the flock would leave to submit to Christ our true Shepherd.

Joseph Smith had a criminal record, which they just say was persecution -- if they choose to believe this who can argue with that? There is no grounds but faith to make them think he was being persucuted or the charges were false.

Second, Joeseph claimed the mysteriously missing tablets of the Book of Mormon were written in Reformed Egyptian - - a completely made up language that never existed. Linguists know this is false, but the Mormons believe it by faith with no earthly evidence.

We know large portions of the Book of Mormon were plagarised, or at least based on a fictional work (which I forget the title of and I'm at work where I can't look it up) written not long before Smith "wrote/discovered" the Book of Mormon.

You cannot believe a new gospel based on fabrications of someone of a questionable reputation, but you can't argue with Mormons because they are sick in the sin of delusion. I used to be charismatic, but I humbled myself and admitted I have been guilty of believing and teaching false things. Mormons need to do the same. I have found in Orthodoxy the true faith of Christ preserved unchanged by time or trends. For info on Eastern Orthodoxy look at orthodoxinfo.com, if you are interested.

and vice-versa

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

 

[TOmNossor]

It is clear from the posts from LDS adherents here that a certain amount of deception has clouded their minds. They have been taught by their leaders how to defend their belief against almost every argument posed by the outside. Why? Because their is so much to argue against. They have to teach their flocks how to answer criticism or all the flock would leave to submit to Christ our true Shepherd.

Joseph Smith had a criminal record, which they just say was persecution -- if they choose to believe this who can argue with that? There is no grounds but faith to make them think he was being persucuted or the charges were false.

Second, Joeseph claimed the mysteriously missing tablets of the Book of Mormon were written in Reformed Egyptian - - a completely made up language that never existed. Linguists know this is false, but the Mormons believe it by faith with no earthly evidence.

We know large portions of the Book of Mormon were plagarised, or at least based on a fictional work (which I forget the title of and I'm at work where I can't look it up) written not long before Smith "wrote/discovered" the Book of Mormon.

You cannot believe a new gospel based on fabrications of someone of a questionable reputation, but you can't argue with Mormons because they are sick in the sin of delusion. I used to be charismatic, but I humbled myself and admitted I have been guilty of believing and teaching false things. Mormons need to do the same. I have found in Orthodoxy the true faith of Christ preserved unchanged by time or trends. For info on Eastern Orthodoxy look at orthodoxinfo.com, if you are interested.

Why do you keep posting this on thread after thread. Here is my response, again again.

Vanshen:

It is clear from the posts from LDS adherents here that a certain amount of deception has clouded their minds. They have been taught by their leaders how to defend their belief against almost every argument posed by the outside. Why? Because their is so much to argue against. They have to teach their flocks how to answer criticism or all the flock would leave to submit to Christ our true Shepherd.



TOm:

Actually, I have not learned how to defend the faith from any of my leaders. I just read anti-Mormonism stuff and then think. I read replies to anti-Mormonism stuff when necessary. There truly is very little new out here.

I am sure Atheist would say the same thing about all Christians. All those who think the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches are cults regularly say that the leaders keep them in the dark by discouraging the reading of the Bible. The problem is that it is none if this is true for LDS (and by my observation not true for Catholics either).

You seem to be suggesting that to think, pray, read the Bible, … is to be lead out of the CoJCoLDS. But evidence, personal and otherwise, suggests that you do not know of what you speak.



Vanshen:

Joseph Smith had a criminal record, which they just say was persecution -- if they choose to believe this who can argue with that? There is no grounds but faith to make them think he was being persucuted or the charges were false.



TOm:

And our Lord was tried, convicted, and executed. Does this Atheist argument effect you. Cardinal Newman in an Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine mentions the CoJCoLDS one time. He says that a church that is a faithful development of the Early Church must be one that is persecuted and ridiculed. He suggests that the Catholic and Mormon churches fit this bill nicely and few others do. I am well aware of the things that Joseph did. You are correct, your argument has little effect on me.



Vanshen:

Second, Joeseph claimed the mysteriously missing tablets of the Book of Mormon were written in Reformed Egyptian - - a completely made up language that never existed. Linguists know this is false, but the Mormons believe it by faith with no earthly evidence.



TOm:

There has been some studies that point out links between the surviving characters and ancient Egyptian, but it is fine that there is not earthly evidence. The central truths of Christianity also have no earthly evidence to back them up. As I have said before, to learn to think critically as anti-Mormonismist would have one think is to think oneself straight into Atheism. Fortunately few anti-Mormonismist ever apply the type of critical thinking they would have LDS apply to their own beliefs.



Vanshen:

We know large portions of the Book of Mormon were plagarised, or at least based on a fictional work (which I forget the title of and I'm at work where I can't look it up) written not long before Smith "wrote/discovered" the Book of Mormon.



TOm:

This has been addressed a number of times. Ethan Smith, Josiah Priest, KJV of Bible, … parallels? Yes. Explanation for the totality of the result? No.



Vanshen:

You cannot believe a new gospel based on fabrications of someone of a questionable reputation, but you can't argue with Mormons because they are sick in the sin of dillusion. I used to be charimatic, but I humbled myself and admitted I have been guilty of believing and teaching false things. Mormons need to do the same. I have found in Orthodoxy the true faith of Christ preserved unchanged by time or trends. For info on Eastern Orthodoxy look at orthodoxinfo.com, if you are interested.



TOm:

I am not sure that all Charismatics would be so quick to agree with you. I have studied Catholicism extensively and Orthodoxy increasingly. If it were not for the Restoration, I would be Catholic and committed, but BIASED as I am it is quite clear to me that the Restoration is a far more coherent picture than either Catholicism or Orthodoxy. This truth shines through beside my Spiritual witness of the Restoration.

You err greatly when you assume that the critical thinker will arrive at the conclusions you have arrived at. I once thought this, but now I know that honest, intelligent people can come to different conclusions.

A Moslem professor said, “You believe that God has a son (which, of course, everybody knows is completely impossible), and that he sent his son to earth and arranged to have him killed in order to buy himself off?”



Perhaps you should try to see yourself as he sees you and see if the picture is really so different than the way you characterize LDS. I commend you for being able to challenge your preconceived notions and become an Eastern Orthodox Christian. In my mind as an unbiased outsider, there is more congruency in EO religion than in most other Christianity. But you err greatly when you suggest that for a LDS to no see the error in their ways they must be unwilling to critically examine their religion.



Charity, TOm

 

[vanshan]

I must say Mormon believers are a tenacious, tough group of believers. If ever you trade in your new innovations for the faith of Christ as it is established by the universe, confessed by the Fathers, and believed by millions you will truly be an asset to Christ.

 

[emerald Dragon]

I must say Mormon believers are a tenacious, tough group of believers. If ever you trade in your new innovations for the faith of Christ as it is established by the universe, confessed by the Fathers, and believed by millions you will truly be an asset to Christ.

And that we have, and that we are. We believe, and are His assets.

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

 

[MormonFriend]

MF, I am sorry you have Tourettes, I have a friend with Tourettes and I know just from talking with him that it is not an easy thing to live with. I truly am sorry you have it. However, I do feel that I need to say that I think it is a low blow to use your syndrome as a way to gain sympothy from the "crowd". Perhaps that is not what you intended but that is how it came across.

Grace

Thank you for the sympathy, but there is nothing to be sorry about. My level of Tourette's is very mild. A few ticks, ADHD is minor. (I outgrew the "HD" years ago.) I never had the uncontrollable swearing, etc. You cannot compare one person to another, because the chemistry is so different in all cases. Most relate to what they have seen on TV, and those cases are more extreem. I have two nephews that will never be independent, as they got their T.S. genes from both parents.

Furthermore, I actually find an assett in my handicap. My ADD causes me to study slowly and deliberate. When most travel on the freeway, I have to take the side streets. I eventually get there, but I can absorb more scenery going slower. In my work, many times I have been able to solve problems that others cannot, simply because I process information differently.

Last year I had to take my former employer to court. There were 3 issues, and I could not afford the attorney for two of them, so I handled them myself. Since I had time to prepare and focus on one subject at a time, I had no problem in prevailing. You can rest assured that I am not seeking sympathy from the "crowd" (all 4 posters?)

If you have followed my messagese, you should understand that Der Alter made a very unappropriate, comment. I felt that he should know my "status" for obvious reasons. In the past I tried to tell him that I require more time to process thouhts. Then I tell him that perhaps I don't know the full meaning of "context", to which he lowers himself to the level of name calling and lambasts me because I don't know what I already conceded that I might lack. I still have to decipher what he said about context.
(MF)Are you testing me to see if I know what context means? Maybe I don't know in a full sense, since language is not my trade.


(DA) Do you have to work at being this obtuse or does it come naturally? Do you understand the concept of in-context?


(MF)Your remarks are offensive and incredulous. I have told you in a previous post that "my thought process is slower than average." I guess I am so "obtuse" that I had to look the word up. But for the record, I do have Tourette's Syndrome, which often includes many lacking normalities such as ADD.

So if the crowds are reading this, and if I came across as seeking sympathy as Grace implied, please don't feel sorry for me. Thank you Grace for bringing this up.

 

[rnmomof7]

Thank you for the sympathy, but there is nothing to be sorry about. My level of Tourette's is very mild. A few ticks, ADHD is minor. (I outgrew the "HD" years ago.) I never had the uncontrollable swearing, etc. You cannot compare one person to another, because the chemistry is so different in all cases. Most relate to what they have seen on TV, and those cases are more extreem. I have two nephews that will never be independent, as they got their T.S. genes from both parents.

Furthermore, I actually find an assett in my handicap. My ADD causes me to study slowly and deliberate. When most travel on the freeway, I have to take the side streets. I eventually get there, but I can absorb more scenery going slower. In my work, many times I have been able to solve problems that others cannot, simply because I process information differently.

Last year I had to take my former employer to court. There were 3 issues, and I could not afford the attorney for two of them, so I handled them myself. Since I had time to prepare and focus on one subject at a time, I had no problem in prevailing. You can rest assured that I am not seeking sympathy from the "crowd" (all 4 posters?)

If you have followed my messagese, you should understand that Der Alter made a very unappropriate, comment. I felt that he should know my "status" for obvious reasons. In the past I tried to tell him that I require more time to process thouhts. Then I tell him that perhaps I don't know the full meaning of "context", to which he lowers himself to the level of name calling and lambasts me because I don't know what I already conceded that I might lack. I still have to decipher what he said about context.
(MF)Are you testing me to see if I know what context means? Maybe I don't know in a full sense, since language is not my trade.


(DA) Do you have to work at being this obtuse or does it come naturally? Do you understand the concept of in-context?


(MF)Your remarks are offensive and incredulous. I have told you in a previous post that "my thought process is slower than average." I guess I am so "obtuse" that I had to look the word up. But for the record, I do have Tourette's Syndrome, which often includes many lacking normalities such as ADD.

So if the crowds are reading this, and if I came across as seeking sympathy as Grace implied, please don't feel sorry for me. Thank you Grace for bringing this up.

I think you are quick enough , no i do not feel "sorry" for you . You do well enough

 

[MormonFriend]

As I said blowing smoke. But just for grins I will look at all your posts for the last several days and see if any are in response to me that I have not replied to. Wanna make a little bet what I will find?

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1907640#post1907640

Is that the post you said was answered?

Do you understand the concept of in-context? This sentence was in a paragraph and referred back to what immediately preceded it, not standing alone as you have it. ......

Yes! I see the light!! What threw me was your use of "ain't" Had you said "wasn't" instead of "ain't" I would have stayed with your thought. But the placement in the paragraph should have told me.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

Thank you for the sympathy, but there is nothing to be sorry about. My level of Tourette's is very mild. A few ticks, ADHD is minor. (I outgrew the "HD" years ago.) I never had the uncontrollable swearing, etc. You cannot compare one person to another, because the chemistry is so different in all cases. Most relate to what they have seen on TV, and those cases are more extreem. I have two nephews that will never be independent, as they got their T.S. genes from both parents.

Furthermore, I actually find an assett in my handicap. My ADD causes me to study slowly and deliberate. When most t...ravel on the freeway, I have to take the side streets. I eventually get there, but I can absorb more scenery going slower. In my work, many times I have been able to solve problems that others cannot, simply because I process information differently.

Last year I had to take my former employer to court. There were 3 issues, and I could not afford the attorney for two of them, so I handled them myself. Since I had time to prepare and focus on one subject at a time, I had no problem in prevailing. You can rest assured that I am not seeking sympathy from the "crowd" (all 4 posters?)

If you have followed my messagese, you should understand that Der Alter made a very unappropriate, comment. I felt that he should know my "status" for obvious reasons. In the past I tried to tell him that I require more time to process thouhts. Then I tell him that perhaps I don't know the full meaning of "context", to which he lowers himself to the level of name calling and lambasts me because I don't know what I already conceded that I might lack. I still have to decipher what he said about context.
(MF)Are you testing me to see if I know what context means? Maybe I don't know in a full sense, since language is not my trade.


(DA) Do you have to work at being this obtuse or does it come naturally? Do you understand the concept of in-context?


(MF)Your remarks are offensive and incredulous. I have told you in a previous post that "my thought process is slower than average." I guess I am so "obtuse" that I had to look the word up. But for the record, I do have Tourette's Syndrome, which often includes many lacking normalities such as ADD.

So if the crowds are reading this, and if I came across as seeking sympathy as Grace implied, please don't feel sorry for me. Thank you Grace for bringing this up.

Ok then, I won't feel "sorry" for you and I am glad you choose to focus on the positive aspects of your TS.

Grace

 

[MormonFriend]

Suzannah,

Thank you for posting this. I also have read claims by LDS that Eastern Orthodox teaches theosis, which was defined by them (LDS) as man becoming a god.



In my opinion, these portions from the posted link clearly explain the Orthodox belief. Man becoming godly, rather than man becoming a god.

................

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus2:11 - 12)

How can one become godly without being a god? I would think that is like telling a goldfish to fly like a bird!

 

[Rescued One]

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus2:11 - 12)

How can one become godly without being a god? I would think that is like telling a goldfish to fly like a bird!

Just because you don't understand something doesn't take away it's truth.

Isaiah 43
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

We should live.... godly in this present world; (Titus2:11 - 12) \

How many Gods are walking around in this present world? And in the next world there shall be no God formed either.

 

[happyinhisgrace]

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; (Titus2:11 - 12)

How can one become godly without being a god? I would think that is like telling a goldfish to fly like a bird!

A woman can become manly without becoming a man, a man can become feminine without becoming a woman, an adult can be childish without becoming a child, a person can become sluggish without becoming a snail, man can become lonesome without being alone and people can become crafty without becoming a craft.

To become "godly" does not mean to become "a god".

Grace

 

[emerald Dragon]

Ok then, I won't feel "sorry" for you and I am glad you choose to focus on the positive aspects of your TS.

Grace

Well said!

God Bless,
Emerald Dragon

 

[skylark1]

How can one become godly without being a god? I would think that is like telling a goldfish to fly like a bird!

First we must be included in Christ by believing the word of truth.

Ephesians 1
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

​

When we believe, we are sealed by God by the Holy Spirit. He is the Counselor whom Jesus promised would convict the world of their sin, and guide those in Christ to all truth.

John 16
13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.
​

By submitting our will to God's will, through the presence of the Holy Spirit we will become more godly. This doesn't mean that we will become ontologically like God, but that we reflect His light as we follow Him, die to our old nature, and live for Him. The fruit of the spirit is evidence of this.

Galatians 5
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

2 Peter 1
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love.

​

 

[MormonFriend]

A woman can become manly without becoming a man, a man can become feminine without becoming a woman, an adult can be childish without becoming a child, a person can become sluggish without becoming a snail, man can become lonesome without being alone and people can become crafty without becoming a craft.

To become "godly" does not mean to become "a god".

Grace

Your examples are contrary. These are negative aspects, none of which we were commanded to do. Can a child can be adult like without becoming like an adult?

To become "godly" means to fill the measure of our creation. We were already created like God, in His image and His likeness. With proper use of free will we conform to highest potential of our creation.