LDS Mormonism is an enemy of the Cross and therefore not Christian

[dzheremi]

From the page that the Mormon poster above called 'poignant':

To illustrate my problem with the popular use of the cross, if my wife were stabbed to death, I wouldn't put knives on my wall to remember her

If by her death and resurrection she conquered the power of death over us all and offered life to those in the tombs and to those that believed in her, you would. Because that's what Christ did. And that's why we bow before the holy cross, and kiss it, and do all of these other things. It is not mere remembrance of a one-time action, nor the oft-expressed but wrong idea of "glorifying an instrument of torture", but because through His death and resurrection, what most definitely had been a symbol of death became in fact a symbol of not just life, but of eternal life. Perhaps for some Christians who are overly focused on the gory details of the passion (people who love Mel Gibson's film in an unhealthy way), this is not the case, but within the context of its invocation in Orthodox worship, it is entirely because of Christ's resurrection that we hold the cross up, proudly and with reverence. I suppose if we saw it as something shameful or an instrument of defeat, we might feel differently, but in the Orthodox celebration of the cross, it is instead common to hear it referred as having "victorious power" (as in the video below, from an Indian Orthodox Church), precisely due to Christ's victory over death upon it.

So it would appear that the Mormons are objecting on false grounds, and furthermore damaging their own claim (made on that page) to be of the same mind as the early Christians in this matter. Again, St. Clement of Alexandria (2nd century) calls the cross the symbol of the Lord. Heck, India -- where the church in the video was founded -- was evangelized by St. Thomas the Apostle in the 50's, and they have certainly never shied away from veneration of and identification with the cross in any way (see, notably, events like the Coonan Cross Oath). And why should they, or any of us? The cross is the victory, power, and protection of the Christians. Others would see us shamed by it because they do not understand it, or maybe (as in the case of some other religions) they do not believe in the crucifixion, death, and resurrection of Christ. But for people who claim to be Christians and therefore believe in that to not venerate the cross...well, that's the real source of shame in all this, as it is opposing Christianity by re-making the cross into something bad after Christ sanctified it by His holy sacrifice, as though He is not risen so it is still what it was before!

 

[mmksparbud]

Actually this is wrong as they believe Jesus is a separate God that was born from the father (and mother God) and got exalted into godhood so there is 3 gods that aren't one god. I'm unsure how they consider the Holy Spirit as also a separate god or not.

They are all separate, but they still claim one God, including the Heavenly Mother which they worship, but they are one in thought and purpose. All those gods on other planets are still under the heading of one god--they are all one in thought and purpose. Actually, God has other wives besides the Heavenly Mother. and I've yet not quite figured out how Jesus gets to be with God as that level of "exaltation" can only be achieved if you are married, and not any marriage, must be a Mormon priest. It is not "required" that you believe Jesus is married, but nearly all do, at least to one, and probably many wives. If an unmarried woman is mentioned in the bible, she's a wife.

 

[Jane_Doe]

There is no discussion to be had with a person who cannot accept Christianity due to their own bias against "sinful men", and instead want to have a conversation not from a common base (which is what the councils and the Creed represent: the dividing line between those who are within Christianity and those who are not), but from what of our scriptures that they will accept (after mutilating them, as you have done with John 17:21; the fathers, rather, understood this verse to be a reference to the homoousian reality of the Holy Trinity, e.g., St. Augustine writes in his Tracte CX on John: "The Father, therefore, is in the Son, and the Son in the Father, in such a way as to be one, because they are of one substance"). This is not different than any non-Christian religion, as is obvious when looking at the parallels between Mormonism and the religions of others who claimed to be restoring the true faith that had been manipulated and filled with paganism by others.

Be that as it may, just for everyone's edification, the standard 27-book NT that is accepted by all Christian churches (some have more, but all have at least those 27) was first enumerated in the 39th festal (Easter) letter of our father HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic, the 20th Pope of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, in 367 AD. It was subsequently accepted by other churches outside of Egypt, being confirmed (e.g.) at a synod in Carthage in 382.

It is also one tradition (in the Coptic Orthodox Church) that our father HH St. Athanasius authored the Nicene Creed, though other traditions say that he wrote it together with HG Bishop Hosius of Cordoba, and still others that it was collaborative effort between many of the assembled bishops. Point being, we have here a man who is ultimately responsible for promulgating the Biblical canon used by all Christian churches, who at least had a role in authoring the Creed which is used by the majority of churches as well as their symbol of belief, and so on...and the Mormons would have you believe that, as church leaders are sinful men, they can't possibly be correct regarding how to interpret that very same Bible that they themselves canonized and that very same faith that they laid down for us just as we continue to affirm today.

And while all the saints from the first century (including those taught by the apostles and the disciples themselves, such as St. Ignatius of Antioch, Anianus of Alexandria, etc.) onward got it wildly wrong, a farm boy in New York in the 19th century (I mistyped earlier; Mormonism is even younger than I remembered) somehow restored everything to how it was meant to be from the apostolic times until today...novel doctrines and books, "Reformed Egyptian", magical seeing stones and all.

You guys do remember how all that is in the Bible, right? The coming of Joseph Smith and his restoring of Christianity?

Yeah. Sure. But it is the rest of Christianity that has embraced "non-Biblical ideas", right?

It is true that I do not look to sinful men to explain God to me, so I don't care about your post here. And for me to say that the creed writers and council members, were sinful is not a personal attack at all, but an acknowledgement that all men have sinned as fall short of the grace of God. Now, if any of these men claimed to be delivering God's words and not their own, then we could investigate whether or not that's true.

 

[Sophrosyne]

They are all separate, but they still claim one God, including the Heavenly Mother which they worship, but they are one in thought and purpose. All those gods on other planets are still under the heading of one god--they are all one in thought and purpose. Actually, God has other wives besides the Heavenly Mother. and I've yet not quite figured out how Jesus gets to be with God as that level of "exaltation" can only be achieved if you are married, and not any marriage, must be a Mormon priest. It is not "required" that you believe Jesus is married, but nearly all do, at least to one, and probably many wives. If an unmarried woman is mentioned in the bible, she's a wife.

And then when they themselves get exalted too are they also "one god"?
Is Mr. Smith now "God" too?

 

[mmksparbud]

And then when they themselves get exalted too are they also "one god"?

Yep---thousands, millions of gods all over the universe---one in thought---so only 1God!

 

[Sophrosyne]

Yep---thousands, millions of gods all over the universe---one in thought---so only 1God!

You can buy into that nonsense but I don't see that as logical especially according to the Bible maybe an alien religion.

 

[mmksparbud]

You can buy into that nonsense but I don't see that as logical especially according to the Bible maybe an alien religion.

What makes you think I buy into it? I'm SDA!!! Not even close!!! It's taken over a year to get all this as they cloak their words with "Christian talk" to make it sound as though they believe what we do. On the surface they do, it's when you get into their core believes that it comes out--a little at a time. There are Mormons out there who do not really know what the church actually believes until they've been in to for a while and are spoon fed a little of this at a time. It can take years before they get it all.

 

[Goatee]

What makes you think I buy into it? I'm SDA!!! Not even close!!! It's taken over a year to get all this as they cloak their words with "Christian talk" to make it sound as though they believe what we do. On the surface they do, it's when you get into their core believes that it comes out--a little at a time. There are Mormons out there who do not really know what the church actually believes until they've been in to for a while and are spoon fed a little of this at a time. It can take years before they get it all.

I think it was the way you worded your posts. Made it out you believe in all that.

 

[mmksparbud]

My apologies! I was merely explaining what I learned.

 

[Goatee]

My apologies! I was merely explaining what I learned.

No need to apologise.

 

[tickingclocker]

But wouldn't that be different? Pick up your cross and follow me is quite different to not wanting to see a cross or a crucifix.

Sorry people, but, i do see a lot of mormon bashing on these forums. Ok, its good to discuss issues and try and get them to see the 'Christian' view of the Bible etc. You know, every denomination thinks it is the right denomination.

I dont know enough about mormon beliefs to charge in and attack them so directly. I have read quite a few things, which i have posted before that seem way out there.

It would be great if we could 'ALL' get together and worship God under the same banner! Jesus started 'His' church. 'WE' are his church! All his believers whatever denomination. Yes, some denominations, including the CC have some weird doctrines / practices but it would be great if we could all live together with Christ instead of tugging at the different parts that make up the whole body of the Church.

People who don't realize the diametrically opposed beliefs of mormonism compared to Christianity innocently accept what the LDS is stealthily trying to establish, all because they claim they worship Jesus Christ. Yes. ANOTHER Jesus Christ. Not THE Jesus Christ. That think they should have a right to a seat at Christianity's table. When their gods are nothing like our God? No. Mormonism has no rights. Should we accept Molech because people worship him and insist we recognize him? He's supposed to be a god, too. God declares TRUTH and expects us to follow it. Not convenient lies. It's all about sticking to God's biblical truth. Would I love to see mormonism embraced? Nothing would make me happier! IF they would deny their false beliefs first.

Actually mormonism, and specifically the LDS church, are not that interested in truly "joining" orthodox Christianity. It is determined to remold it to its false theology instead, inch by stealthy inch if they must. Pounding on the door for almost 200 years hasn't gotten them anywhere. First they go after the innocents who don't really understand these differences are an affront to God's holiness. Now that mormonism has a few unaware "friends" notched on their belt, this emboldens them to start pounding on the door to be further accepted. Why? So they can enter--and take over. They had no intention of walking in to merely enjoy existing Christian unity and fellowship. The first thing to be tossed out by them would be the Nicene Creed, which currently unites us all under one statement of Jesus Christ. Despite our doctrinal variations. Now you can see why mormonism continually battles against it, attempting to tear it down just as JS rightly recognized--and feared it. It will forever stand as a beacon to light God's truth while spotlighting error and lies.

Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find [pure] faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8 b)

 

[dzheremi]

It is true that I do not look to sinful men to explain God to me, so I don't care about your post here. And for me to say that the creed writers and council members, were sinful is not a personal attack at all, but an acknowledgement that all men have sinned as fall short of the grace of God. Now, if any of these men claimed to be delivering God's words and not their own, then we could investigate whether or not that's true.

The point is not whether or not you care, but rather that by not caring, you are rejecting Christianity. It matters very little what anyone (myself included) thinks of the fathers as individual personalities. What matters is that we follow what they wrote, taught, and decided in council, not on the strength of their personal moral authority or claims, but because they were taught by those who had received their instruction from the apostles and the disciples who did have that authority, again not of themselves, but of God. To do otherwise is to follow individuals with their own agendas, as is obvious when comparing the doctrine and practice of Marcion (to choose a preconciliar example), Arius, Pelagius, etc. to what is actually taught throughout the centuries, beginning with the earliest Christianity, which was contemporary with the apostles themselves.

So again, either all of these people got it wrong individually and in council, despite living that much closer to the times and cultures of our Lord and God Jesus Christ and the apostles and the disciples than any latter day prophet or religious leader, or everybody was wrong and it took Joseph Smith, a man who had visions which nobody else had ever seen, produced writings from sources that were of dubious authenticity by 'translating' them using magic stones and a hat, and by those writings introduced many novelties and distortions that flatly contradict apostolic and conciliar witness, to somehow right the ship.

Obviously you believe it, but to the Christian with even a modicum of historical awareness and even the most basic grounding in historical theology and Christian practice, it is beyond belief. You don't learn what early Christians believed and did by looking to the visions of some random nobody in New York eighteen centuries after the fact. You look at what the early Christians themselves left you, all of which is at variance with the distinctive practices and beliefs of the Mormons, because again, Mormonism is not Christianity. It is a separate religion that claims to base itself in Christianity, but is wrong about that, too.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Actually mormonism, and specifically the LDS church, are not that interested in truly "joining" orthodox Christianity. It is determined to remold it to its false theology instead, inch by stealthy inch if they must. Pounding on the door for almost 200 years hasn't gotten them anywhere. First they go after the innocents who don't really understand these differences are an affront to God's holiness. Now that mormonism has a few unaware "friends" notched on their belt, this emboldens them to start pounding on the door to be further accepted. Why? So they can enter--and take over. They had no intention of walking in to merely enjoy existing Christian unity and fellowship. The first thing to be tossed out by them would be the Nicene Creed, which currently unites us all under one statement of Jesus Christ. Despite our doctrinal variations. Now you can see why mormonism continually battles against it, attempting to tear it down just as JS rightly recognized--and feared it. It will forever stand as a beacon to light God's truth while spotlighting error and lies.

I'm sorry, but this post reeks of paranoia.

You did get one thing right though: LDS have no intention of "joining" creedal Christianity. We don't want to be called Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, Orthodox, or any of those because we are not them.

What you got wrong: We do not fear the fact that people believe differently than we do (such a fear would be ridiculous). We don't want to force any change of beliefs on you (or anyone). We acknowledge your right to worship the Almighty God according to the dictates of your own conscious- that you may worship how, where, or what you may-- your right to do so is so important to LDS that it's actually an Article of Faith.

 

[Jane_Doe]

The point is not whether or not you care, but rather that by not caring, you are rejecting Christianity.

And by "Christianity" you mean the popular vote of sinful men? Don't care.
Christ and His Words? Now that I care.

You don't learn what early Christians believed

Actually, I am quite informed on early Christian beliefs, councils, creeds, etc. I have spent much time researching it.

But to find Truth I look to God, not men.

 

[Goatee]

But wasn't smith a 'very' sinful man too? Should we even trust his words? The things he got up to were not very 'Holy' now were they?

 

[tickingclocker]

Look, i just see it as mormon bashing! You can try to change their views / beliefs, thats fine. It just seems like its just a way to 'have a go' at them.

Mormons don't have to come on here, nor do they have to respond to any questions about their religion---or ours for that matter. They have free will to leave! But if they stay, they will have to answer for their beliefs. That is what this forum is for, and personally its one of the best moderated ones going. Go on a few other religious debate sites and see what happens. It gets pretty gruesome on both sides.

Have you ever read some of their leader's past sermons about what they say about Christians? You would call them Christianity bashers if so. Look some of their quotes up sometime and you will see. It's never a one-sided effort.

Mormonism teaches its members to avoid answering straight questions with straight answers, and to resort to ad hominem. In other words they change the subject and attack minor or secondary points. For instance, not a single Mormon ever answered my question in another thread about why JS claimed God told him all Christianity is an "abomination", if the LDS believes a doctrine that was ALREADY IN EXISTENCE WITHIN CHRISTIANITY (faith plus works). Yet we all are the abominations? That would mean they, too, are abominations to God. How would that work out if Jesus said the gates of hell would never prevail against His church, then? ONE person went all around the question yet never once answered it. Why? Because they will have to confront the falsehoods mormonism is based upon, and that they are warned not to do. Can you see why?

Tough love always looks like bashing.

 

[Goatee]

Mormons don't have to come on here, nor do they have to respond to any questions about their religion---or ours for that matter. They have free will to leave! But if they stay, they will have to answer for their beliefs. That is what this forum is for, and personally its one of the best moderated ones going. Go on a few other religious debate sites and see what happens. It gets pretty gruesome on both sides.

Have you ever read some of their leader's past sermons about what they say about Christians? You would call them Christianity bashers if so. Look some of their quotes up sometime and you will see. It's never a one-sided effort.

Mormonism teaches its members to avoid answering straight questions with straight answers, and to resort to ad hominem. In other words they change the subject and attack minor or secondary points. For instance, not a single Mormon ever answered my question in another thread about why JS claimed God told him all Christianity is an "abomination", if the LDS believes a doctrine that was ALREADY IN EXISTENCE WITHIN CHRISTIANITY (faith plus works). Yet we all are the abominations? That would mean they, too, are abominations to God. How would that work out if Jesus said the gates of hell would never prevail against His church, then? ONE person went all around the question yet never once answered it. Why? Because they will have to confront the falsehoods mormonism is based upon, and that they are warned not to do. Can you see why?

Tough love always looks like bashing.

Ok, i understand. I have read some things about their beliefs that have made me think that cant be right

 

[tickingclocker]

So -

Does wearing a cross, in and of itself, make one a Christian?

If so, then I'd like people to take a good, hard look at this picture.

This is a photo I took a few years ago. To the left is a bracelet with Virgin Mary iconography. To the right is a wooden cross with beads.

Those capsules above them are the ones they were in when I got them out of the vending machine.

Yes folks, you read that right: I got religious icons out of a vending machine. $0.50 US apiece. Made cheaply to be sold cheaply. I've got a third wooden cross next to me; this one is smaller and so was a mere $0.25 out of the machine.

To me folks, that is blasphemous, as it represents what should be holy icons reduced to mere trinkets.

Yet by the logic expressed in this very thread, all I'd have to do is strap them on one day and I'd be a "proper" Christian. A few pennies' worth of cheap wood and string, and I've got a one-way ticket to Heaven just for wearing them around.

Tell me - how much Jesus kitsch must one own to be guaranteed salvation? The Jesus on the Crucifix night light? The Victory in Jesus toy monster truck with the gold chrome highlights? The Jesus is Lord pocket fan? I've seen all three - and others - in stores in my area. In fact, a local "everything's a dollar plus" had a lengthy section of a wall display permanently devoted to Jesus is Lord merchandise, including disc launchers and notepads. Would purchasing one of each put someone ahead of the Pope in line to Heaven? (Said store has since gone out of business, BTW.)

Anyone can drop a quarter or two in a machine and get a token these days.

Not everyone can prove that they actually do walk with Christ.

That's why I regard statements like the OP as completely missing the point, straining at gnats while swallowing camels and all.

You are assuming that Christians manufactured them? Can you prove that? Or is it an established "fact" in your mind already? I once saw college partiers wearing Mormon garments while parroting South Park's rendition of mormonism. Did I believe they were actual Mormon garments? Not even for a second. I wouldn't make fun of them just as I never would a Jewish Yarmulke, or a Catholic Priests' stole. They are treasured by their own religions.

We cannot "copyright" the Cross like you do Mormon garments, which are used only by LDS. The Cross, however, is for everyone. If some wish to demean it, they must answer to GOD. Not to us, and not to you either.

And the Cross is never an "icon" to the Christian. It's a reminder, much like garments are to Mormons, of the terrible sacrifice Jesus paid for our sins. You have your reminders, we have ours. You don't worship your garments if you wear them. We don't worship the Cross. We worship God.

 

[mmksparbud]

Wearing a cross does not make you Christian---- does wearing the Mormon underwear make you a Mormon??? All Christians do not have to wear a cross to be Christian---do all Mormons have to wear the undergarments?

 

[tickingclocker]

hhhmmmm----you will seldom see a cross in any of our churches and we certainly do not wear them. We shy away from ANY symbols. Occasionally you will see one. It is for us, to steer away from anything that might be worshipped in place of God, thus becoming a graven image. It is not the object that saves, but Jesus. That said, we place a great deal of importance to the suffering of Christ on the cross. Yes, it started at Gethsemane, the decision to go ahead with going to the cross was made there, and it caused so much anguish that He sweated blood. But to make it the point of the most intense suffering as opposed to what He had to go through afterwards, seems very odd, indeed. The reason it was so agonizing is because He knew what came next. Not only because He knew the predictions, but crucifixion was prevalent and seen by many and I've no doubt He had encountered a few Himself. To think that the decision to go ahead was worse than the actual occurrence seems unrealistic, at best. Being spat upon, whipped (there were pieces of metal in the whip) a crown of thorns driven into your head, being in so much pain and being too weak to carry a heavy cross, the pictures of Him on a cross are reverently done with a loin cloth discreetly placed. There was no such consideration for those crucified, it was done naked. And the actual crucifixion itself, was done to bring upon the utmost pain at every second on it and was intended to last many hours. Not to mention the fact that He had the torture of God having to withdraw as all sins were heaped upon Him and He becoming sin, and Jesus, even in His condition, to utter "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?" How that can take 2nd place to Gethsemane is absurd.

Jesus didn't 'sweat' blood. The verse is pretty clear that it was "LIKE" drops of blood, as in "similar to" but not the actual form. Have you ever seen anyone sweat blood? Neither have I. And neither of us ever will. Ever watch a drop of blood form? Looks just like sweat beads. Ever watch sweat beads form on someone doing heavy exertion? Just like drops of blood.

I don't know, but I think the writer would have said in our culture that Jesus was "drenched in sweat" after inwardly wrestling with Himself at the terrifying prospect of facing so much searing pain, when He had never so much as stubbed His toe against a rock before this. It's not like He didn't know what crucifixion did to the human body, never mind the public humiliation, just like you said. You can be pretty sure He saw at least one crucifixion under Roman occupation in His lifetime, too. All the millions who would reject Him were probably on His mind at the time. Was all this forthcoming physical agony and humiliation worth it? Obviously He came to the conclusion that it was, because He willingly went to the Cross and died for US. That is why the Cross is so precious to Christians. What it represents. Satan meant it for evil, but God allowed it for eternal good.