LDS Mormonism and Non-Mormons

[He is the way]

Again and again---John was never trained to be a priest. He resided in the desert and always was indented for preaching and baptizing---He had never been ordained into the priesthood and could not ordain anyone into the priesthood. The mere fact that JS says he had this vision proves JS was not a prophet of God.

You are guessing. There is not a lot of information on John in the Bible.

 

[BigDaddy4]

John living in the wilderness has nothing to do with his authority or his priesthood.

Are you kidding? Do you even know what the OT Aaronic priests did and how they became priests in the first place? You are showing a lot of ignorance here.

Why do anyone assume that John had no authority to baptize?

No one assumed that. You're just assuming someone assumed that. That gets pretty messy.

Are you saying that his authority did not come from heaven?

Jesus did not disclose where the authority came from. You even posted the verse.

You say "Aaronic priests did not baptize." How do you know they didn't? Not everything is in the Bible.

I think this is a better source than Joseph Smith. No baptisms here.

PRIEST - JewishEncyclopedia.com

 

[BigDaddy4]

You are guessing. There is not a lot of information on John in the Bible.

We are not the ones who are guessing. You are following a religion that is based on [faulty] guesswork, not us.

 

[dzheremi]

Those who performed baptisms in the New Testament were set apart by Christ for that duty in the church. For example Peter, Paul, and Phillip were given that authority. The command to baptize, was given to them, not to every believer indiscriminately. There is no evidence to show members baptized one another.

The question was "Where is literally any non-Mormon source about Aaronic priests baptizing people?"

And that question remains, because you didn't answer it at all in your (non) reply.

 

[mmksparbud]

You are guessing. There is not a lot of information on John in the Bible.

Guessing? There is much known about the priest hood. Here are just a few facts
Priests did not begin to serve in the temple until they were 30 years old. (Though some were 25)John was only 6 months older than Christ and Christ was baptized by John when He was 30.

Num 4:2 Take the sum of the sons of Kohath from among the sons of Levi, after their families, by the house of their fathers,
Num 4:3 From thirty years old and upward even until fifty years old, all that enter into the host, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation.


Luk 1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
Luk 1:14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
Luk 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Luk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.
Luk 1:18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.

"However, according to the Chofetz Chaim, a rabbinic commentator, one day of service in the Temple required 6 months of preparation. Along this line of thinking, the priests were expected to essentially be Torah scholars while not working in the Temple. In practice, we might be justified to imagine priests as being Torah scholars who also did some part-time farming."

Num 8:23 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 8:24 This is it that belongeth unto the Levites: from twenty and five years old and upward they shall go in to wait upon the service of the tabernacle of the congregation:
Num 8:25 And from the age of fifty years they shall cease waiting upon the service thereof, and shall serve no more:
Num 8:26 But shall minister with their brethren in the tabernacle of the congregation, to keep the charge, and shall do no service. Thus shalt thou do unto the Levites touching their charge.


The high priest was required to be mindful of his honor. He might not mingle with the common people, nor permit himself to be seen disrobed, or in a public bath, etc.; but he might invite others to bathe with him (Tosef., Sanh. iv.; "Yad", l.c. v. 3). He might not participate in a public banquet, but he might pay a visit of consolation to mourners, though even then his dignity was guarded by prescribed etiquette (Sanh. 18–19; "Yad", l.c. v. 4).


"He could not permit his hair to be disheveled, nor could he cut it ("Yad", l.c. v. 6). He had one house attached to the Temple (Mid. 71b), and another in the city of Jerusalem. His honor required that he should spend most of his time in the Sanctuary ("Yad", l.c. v. 7)."


Besides----the priesthood could only be conferred on the descendants of Aaron---and JS was not a descendant of Aaron. In short---John was never a priest---and certainly no High Priest.

 

[He is the way]

Are you kidding? Do you even know what the OT Aaronic priests did and how they became priests in the first place? You are showing a lot of ignorance here.


No one assumed that. You're just assuming someone assumed that. That gets pretty messy.

Jesus did not disclose where the authority came from. You even posted the verse.

I think this is a better source than Joseph Smith. No baptisms here.

PRIEST - JewishEncyclopedia.com

You said: "Jesus did not disclose where the authority came from."

Jesus did insinuate that John did have authority either from heaven or from man. I know that it must have been from heaven because Jesus was baptized by John. However it was important that he did have authority to baptize.

You said: "Are you kidding? Do you even know what the OT Aaronic priests did and how they became priests in the first place? You are showing a lot of ignorance here."

John did not spend his whole life in the wilderness:

(New Testament | Luke 3:2 - 3)

2 Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.
3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

We know little about when he was growing up. We do know that his father Zacharias had the priesthood of Aaron and likely ordained John while yet in his youth.

 

[He is the way]

We are not the ones who are guessing. You are following a religion that is based on [faulty] guesswork, not us.

We are doing what Jesus asked us to do namely keeping the commandments of LOVE given to us from God.

 

[He is the way]

The question was "Where is literally any non-Mormon source about Aaronic priests baptizing people?"

And that question remains, because you didn't answer it at all in your (non) reply.

That is why we have learned more about John and the requirements of baptism. I know that John did have authority from heaven to baptize.

 

[mmksparbud]

That is why we have learned more about John and the requirements of baptism. I know that John did have authority from heaven to baptize.

To baptize---not to ordain to the priesthood---and after death, no less!

 

[truefiction1]

You still did not give me the reason that Jesus Christ preached the gospel to the spirits in spirit prison. Without the baptism they will not be able to see the kingdom of God, so what is the purpose?

Those who hear Christ's preaching of the Gospel and believe in Him will all see the Kingdom of Heaven. That is the purpose of His preaching the Gospel to the spirits in prison. God will baptize them Himself, in the River of Living Water that flows forth from His throne:

"Then the angel showed me a river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb" (Revelation 22:1)

God directly baptizes with water and the Spirit when needed, without the aide of man.

 

[truefiction1]

Mormonism:
Boys and men are not ordained to the Aaronic Priesthood prior to baptism. They cannot baptize without having become Priests in the Aaronic Priesthood.

There are four offices, in the Aaronic Priesthood: deacon, teacher, priest and bishop (a bishop also holds the Melchizedek Priesthood and leads a local congregation). Usually, deacons are ages 12 to 14, teachers ages 14 to 16 and priests ages 16 to 18.
Aaronic Priesthood

How many times were Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery ordained?

According to the account in Joseph Smith–History 1:68, the first Latter Day Saint baptisms occurred on May 15, 1829, when Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery baptized each other in the Susquehanna River near Harmony, Pennsylvania shortly after receiving the Aaronic priesthood from John the Baptist.
Baptism in Mormonism - Wikipedia

68 We still continued the work of translation, when, in the ensuing month (May, 1829), we on a certain day went into the woods to pray and inquire of the Lord respecting baptism for the remission of sins, that we found mentioned in the translation of the plates. While we were thus employed, praying and calling upon the Lord, a messenger from heaven descended in a cloud of light, and having laid his hands upon us, he ordained us, saying:

69 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

70 He said this Aaronic Priesthood had not the power of laying on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, but that this should be conferred on us hereafter; and he commanded us to go and be baptized, and gave us directions that I should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that afterwards he should baptize me.

71 Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me—after which I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on me and ordained me to the same Priesthood—for so we were commanded.*

72 The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us, and that I should be called the first Elder of the Church, and he (Oliver Cowdery) the second. It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized.

73 Immediately on our coming up out of the water after we had been baptized, we experienced great and glorious blessings from our Heavenly Father. No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and prophesied many things which should shortly come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation.
Joseph Smith—History 1

Fiction.

 

[dzheremi]

That is why we have learned more about John and the requirements of baptism. I know that John did have authority from heaven to baptize.

Oh, I see...it's based on some 'further light and knowledge' that only Mormonism has received, and only Mormonism believes in, and hence only Mormons like you 'know'. (Which still doesn't answer my question...or I suppose it does, since I asked for any non-Mormon source to substantiate this, and you instead provided nothing but Mormon boilerplate, which shows everyone that there is no such non-Mormon source for your claims.)

What a bunch of hooey.

 

[truefiction1]

We are doing what Jesus asked us to do namely keeping the commandments of LOVE given to us from God.

Jesus never commanded anyone to baptize for the dead. Such things as he really did command, though, you don't even attempt to do.

 

[Rescued One]

Mormon Rule:

No priesthood before baptism! No baptizing others until a church member has advanced to priest (this comes after the Aaronic priesthood holder has been ordained to first the office of a deacon, second the office of a teacher, and third the office of a priest).

"In the LDS Church, deacon is the lowest of four offices of the Aaronic priesthood. Male members of the church may become deacons at the beginning of the year in which they turn 12 years of age. A bishop may give approval for such members to receive the Aaronic priesthood and ordained to the office of deacon."
Aaronic priesthood (Latter Day Saints) - Wikipedia

 

[Jamesone5]

Do I need to post it again so you can see it?

Yes prove it that I know this fine weill.

post #520: "You know fine well that baptism for the dead is taught by Paul and mentioned as a defense for the resurrection.--He is the Way

You instance means nothing by the way

 

[He is the way]

Those who hear Christ's preaching of the Gospel and believe in Him will all see the Kingdom of Heaven. That is the purpose of His preaching the Gospel to the spirits in prison. God will baptize them Himself, in the River of Living Water that flows forth from His throne:

"Then the angel showed me a river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb" (Revelation 22:1)

God directly baptizes with water and the Spirit when needed, without the aide of man.

Revelation 22:1 says nothing about baptism.

 

[He is the way]

Jesus never commanded anyone to baptize for the dead. Such things as he really did command, though, you don't even attempt to do.

There are two commandments that everyone needs to keep:

(New Testament | Matthew 22:37 - 40)

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

No one is exempt from these commandments, no one.

 

[He is the way]

Jesus never commanded anyone to baptize for the dead. Such things as he really did command, though, you don't even attempt to do.

(New Testament | John 21:25)

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

 

[He is the way]

Yes prove it that I know this fine weill.

post #520: "You know fine well that baptism for the dead is taught by Paul and mentioned as a defense for the resurrection.--He is the Way

You instance means nothing by the way

Okay, the Bible does have this scripture from Paul:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 15:26 - 29)

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

It is completely clear that Paul was using baptism for the dead as a defense for the resurrection. Do you not understand what Paul is saying? If not I apologize.

 

[BigDaddy4]

You said: "Jesus did not disclose where the authority came from."

Jesus did insinuate that John did have authority either from heaven or from man. I know that it must have been from heaven because Jesus was baptized by John. However it was important that he did have authority to baptize.

I agree that John's authority to baptize came from heaven. However, John was not a priest. That's more of you guessing based on your church's incorrect assumptions and resulting theology.

You said: "Are you kidding? Do you even know what the OT Aaronic priests did and how they became priests in the first place? You are showing a lot of ignorance here."

John did not spend his whole life in the wilderness:

Big whoop. Neither was he a priest.

We know little about when he was growing up. We do know that his father Zacharias had the priesthood of Aaron and likely ordained John while yet in his youth.

"Likely"?? Puh-lease. Here you are guessing again when there is evidence to the contrary. A priest couldn't serve until he was at least 25, but usually 30. So there is no way Zacharias could ordain John when John was a youth.