LDS Mormonism and Non-Mormons

[truefiction1]

We can also trace our priesthood authority all the way back to Jesus Christ.

But you really cannot trace it all the way back to Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ established His Apostles about 2000 years ago, whereas the Mormon religion began in the 1840's. No Mormon leader has ever been consecrated as a successive receiver of the Apostolic authority.

 

[He is the way]

Your belief is incorrect. When we die, we go either to the place where lazarus went or to the place where the rich man went. There is a great gulf fixed between those residing in these two places (actually they are not places, but spiritual states of being), so that those who are in hell are not able to be relieved by those who are in the place where the "just" repose. (refer to the story of the rich man and Lazarus in the Gospel of Luke (Luke 16:19-31). Death is the cut off point. What your spiritual orientation is at the moment of your death, that is what it will likely remain forever.

Then why would the spirits in spirit prison be preached to?

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:18 - 22)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

 

[He is the way]

But you really cannot trace it all the way back to Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ established His Apostles about 2000 years ago, whereas the Mormon religion began in the 1840's. No Mormon leader has ever been consecrated as a successive receiver of the Apostolic authority.

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:68 - 74)

68 We still continued the work of translation, when, in the ensuing month (May, 1829), we on a certain day went into the woods to pray and inquire of the Lord respecting baptism for the remission of sins, that we found mentioned in the translation of the plates. While we were thus employed, praying and calling upon the Lord, a messenger from heaven descended in a cloud of light, and having laid his hands upon us, he ordained us, saying:
69 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.
70 He said this Aaronic Priesthood had not the power of laying on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, but that this should be conferred on us hereafter; and he commanded us to go and be baptized, and gave us directions that I should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that afterwards he should baptize me.
71 Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me—after which I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on me and ordained me to the same Priesthood—for so we were commanded.
72 The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us, and that I should be called the first Elder of the Church, and he (Oliver Cowdery) the second. It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized.
73 Immediately on our coming up out of the water after we had been baptized, we experienced great and glorious blessings from our Heavenly Father. No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and prophesied many things which should shortly come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation.
74 Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of. In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances of having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owing to a spirit of persecution which had already manifested itself in the neighborhood.

 

[truefiction1]

Then why would the spirits in spirit prison be preached to?

(New Testament | 1 Peter 3:18 - 22)

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

The spirits in prison were being taught by God, because Jesus Christ Who died preached His Gospel to those deceased people who had not heard the Gospel. Jesus Christ is God, so, He can do this. But no one else can. Only God. Christ does not need for you Mormons to baptize any dead people.

 

[truefiction1]

(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:68 - 74)

68 We still continued the work of translation, when, in the ensuing month (May, 1829), we on a certain day went into the woods to pray and inquire of the Lord respecting baptism for the remission of sins, that we found mentioned in the translation of the plates. While we were thus employed, praying and calling upon the Lord, a messenger from heaven descended in a cloud of light, and having laid his hands upon us, he ordained us, saying:
69 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.
70 He said this Aaronic Priesthood had not the power of laying on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, but that this should be conferred on us hereafter; and he commanded us to go and be baptized, and gave us directions that I should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that afterwards he should baptize me.
71 Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me—after which I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on me and ordained me to the same Priesthood—for so we were commanded.
72 The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us, and that I should be called the first Elder of the Church, and he (Oliver Cowdery) the second. It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized.
73 Immediately on our coming up out of the water after we had been baptized, we experienced great and glorious blessings from our Heavenly Father. No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and prophesied many things which should shortly come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation.
74 Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of. In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances of having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owing to a spirit of persecution which had already manifested itself in the neighborhood.

This is a complete work of fiction, and isn't even Biblical in spirit and certainly not of the flavor of the New Testament, because John the Baptist was never one of Christ's ordained Apostles, and he would never have ordained anyone to the Aaronic priesthood. So, not having the power to bind or loose that Christ gave to the Apostles, John the Baptist is not even the sort of minister who would perform a priestly ordination by any means. Only The Apostles and their ordained successors ordain priests in the Church, and they never ordained anyone, nor would they, to the Aaronic priesthood because all priests since Christ are of the Jesus Christ priesthood. How in the heck can you even begin to believe that the Lord would desire lesser priests than those who are of the priesthood in Christ. Thus, it still stands that no Mormon priest has Apostolic authority by successive ordination.

 

[truefiction1]

Gee, I guess if you think that you do well to dedicate your whole life to what is absolutely, 100% guaranteed, a completely made up religion (yes, that's right: this religion is entirely engineered by some particular men and who knows how many evil spirits), then I think that there isn't much I can say that will prevent you. So go on ahead then.

Farewell, for now.

 

[He is the way]

The spirits in prison were being taught by God, because Jesus Christ Who died preached His Gospel to those deceased people who had not heard the Gospel. Jesus Christ is God, so, He can do this. But no one else can. Only God. Christ does not need for you Mormons to baptize any dead people.

You still did not give me the reason that Jesus Christ preached the gospel to the spirits in spirit prison. Without the baptism they will not be able to see the kingdom of God, so what is the purpose?

 

[Rescued One]

The spirits in prison were being taught by God, because Jesus Christ Who died preached His Gospel to those deceased people who had not heard the Gospel. Jesus Christ is God, so, He can do this. But no one else can. Only God. Christ does not need for you Mormons to baptize any dead people.

They baptize live people as proxies for the deceased members of the family trees that have been researched.

Doctrine and Covenants 128
1–5, Local and general recorders must certify to the fact of baptisms for the dead; 6–9, Their records are binding and recorded on earth and in heaven; 10–14, The baptismal font is a similitude of the grave; 15–17, Elijah restored power relative to baptism for the dead; 18–21, All of the keys, powers, and authorities of past dispensations have been restored; 22–25, Glad and glorious tidings are acclaimed for the living and the dead...

4 Then, let there be a general recorder, to whom these other records can be handed, being attended with certificates over their own signatures, certifying that the record they have made is true. Then the general church recorder can enter the record on the general church book, with the certificates and all the attending witnesses, with his own statement that he verily believes the above statement and records to be true, from his knowledge of the general character and appointment of those men by the church. And when this is done on the general church book, the record shall be just as holy, and shall answer the ordinance just the same as if he had seen with his eyes and heard with his ears, and made a record of the same on the general church book.

5 You may think this order of things to be very particular; but let me tell you that it is only to answer the will of God, by conforming to the ordinance and preparation that the Lord ordained and prepared before the foundation of the world, for the salvation of the dead who should die without a knowledge of the gospel...

8 Now, the nature of this ordinance consists in the power of the priesthood, by the revelation of Jesus Christ, wherein it is granted that whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Or, in other words, taking a different view of the translation, whatsoever you record on earth shall be recorded in heaven, and whatsoever you do not record on earth shall not be recorded in heaven; for out of the books shall your dead be judged, according to their own works, whether they themselves have attended to the ordinances in their own propria persona, or by the means of their own agents, according to the ordinance which God has prepared for their salvation from before the foundation of the world, according to the records which they have kept concerning their dead...

15 And now, my dearly beloved brethren and sisters, let me assure you that these are principles in relation to the dead and the living that cannot be lightly passed over, as pertaining to our salvation. For their salvation is necessary and essential to our salvation, as Paul says concerning the fathers—that they without us cannot be made perfect—neither can we without our dead be made perfect.
Doctrine and Covenants 128

I recall a verse in Hebrews that doesn't mention our ancestors:

Hebrews 10:14
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[BigDaddy4]

There are a few problems with this story.

69 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins;

The Aaronic Priesthood held no such keys.

I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me—after which I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on me and ordained me to the same Priesthood—for so we were commanded.

Your church is caught in a major catch 22 here. Your rules state that someone with "priesthood authority" are the only ones who can baptize and ordain.
"I baptized him first" - JS didn't have any authority to do such a thing, since he himself had not been baptized first.
"I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood" - again JS did not have this authority, according to your church's rules, since he did not hold the priesthood yet.
Conclusion: the mutual baptisms and ordinations are invalid, according to your own church's rules.

72 The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament,

John wasn't a priest, did not hold the Aaronic Priesthood, and therefore did not have the "authority" to confer anything. This further invalidates any claim to so-called "proper" baptisms or ordinations by one in authority.

By its own rules, the lds church has no baptismal or ordinational authority to pass on.

 

[He is the way]

There are a few problems with this story.

The Aaronic Priesthood held no such keys.

Your church is caught in a major catch 22 here. Your rules state that someone with "priesthood authority" are the only ones who can baptize and ordain.
"I baptized him first" - JS didn't have any authority to do such a thing, since he himself had not been baptized first.
"I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood" - again JS did not have this authority, according to your church's rules, since he did not hold the priesthood yet.
Conclusion: the mutual baptisms and ordinations are invalid, according to your own church's rules.

John wasn't a priest, did not hold the Aaronic Priesthood, and therefore did not have the "authority" to confer anything. This further invalidates any claim to so-called "proper" baptisms or ordinations by one in authority.

By its own rules, the lds church has no baptismal or ordinational authority to pass on.

You said: "Your church is caught in a major catch 22 here. Your rules state that someone with "priesthood authority" are the only ones who can baptize and ordain.
"I baptized him first" - JS didn't have any authority to do such a thing, since he himself had not been baptized first.
"I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood" - again JS did not have this authority, according to your church's rules, since he did not hold the priesthood yet.
Conclusion: the mutual baptisms and ordinations are invalid, according to your own church's rules."

Did you not notice that John ordained them FIRST????? I guess you missed it.

While we were thus employed, praying and calling upon the Lord, a messenger from heaven descended in a cloud of light, and having laid his hands upon us, he ordained us, saying:
69 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

You said: "John wasn't a priest, did not hold the Aaronic Priesthood"

He most certainly was:

(New Testament | Matthew 21:23 - 27)

23 ¶ And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

 

[mmksparbud]

You said: "Your church is caught in a major catch 22 here. Your rules state that someone with "priesthood authority" are the only ones who can baptize and ordain.
"I baptized him first" - JS didn't have any authority to do such a thing, since he himself had not been baptized first.
"I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood" - again JS did not have this authority, according to your church's rules, since he did not hold the priesthood yet.
Conclusion: the mutual baptisms and ordinations are invalid, according to your own church's rules."

Did you not notice that John ordained them FIRST????? I guess you missed it.

While we were thus employed, praying and calling upon the Lord, a messenger from heaven descended in a cloud of light, and having laid his hands upon us, he ordained us, saying:
69 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

You said: "John wasn't a priest, did not hold the Aaronic Priesthood"

He most certainly was:

(New Testament | Matthew 21:23 - 27)

23 ¶ And when he was come into the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came unto him as he was teaching, and said, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority?
24 And Jesus answered and said unto them, I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things.
25 The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
26 But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

John was never ordained into the Priesthood -- he could not ordain anyone into the priesthood----He was ordained unto baptism and that is what He did---he baptized! John was never a priest. He had the linage, but never became one! He was never trained as one. He was not raised in the temple, but in the wilderness. JOHN COULD NOIT HAVE ORDAINED ANYOINE INTO THE PRIESTHOOD---ESP. ONE THAT WAS DONE AWAY WITH AT THE CROSS! It is one of the most glaring signs that this whole vision was not of God and that JS was not a prophet of God!

 

[He is the way]

John was never ordained into the Priesthood -- he could not ordain anyone into the priesthood----He was ordained unto baptism and that is what He did---he baptized! John was never a priest. He had the linage, but never became one! He was never trained as one. He was not raised in the temple, but in the wilderness. JOHN COULD NOIT HAVE ORDAINED ANYOINE INTO THE PRIESTHOOD---ESP. ONE THAT WAS DONE AWAY WITH AT THE CROSS! It is one of the most glaring signs that this whole vision was not of God and that JS was not a prophet of God!

The Book of Mormon is from God.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Did you not notice that John ordained them FIRST????? I guess you missed it.

I guess you missed the part where John was not a priest.

He most certainly was:

No he was not. You proved that yourself with the following passage:

27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell. And he said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

Jesus never revealed the source of the authority. You have no Biblical standing to support your argument. But it is more evidence that JS made a bunch of stuff up that your church has bought hook, line, and sinker.

 

[He is the way]

I guess you missed the part where John was not a priest.

No he was not. You proved that yourself with the following passage:

Jesus never revealed the source of the authority. You have no Biblical standing to support your argument. But it is more evidence that JS made a bunch of stuff up that your church has bought hook, line, and sinker.

Jesus did not reveal His authority, neither did He reveal John's authority to baptize. However, Jesus did mention that John had the authority. That is how we know that John had the priesthood.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Jesus did not reveal His authority, neither did He reveal John's authority to baptize. However, Jesus did mention that John had the authority. That is how we know that John had the priesthood.

You are assuming something that's not there based on something that's not true. Poor theology for sure.

John was not a priest. He lived in the wilderness for most of his life. So him having the Aaronic Priesthood is just plain false.

It's only your church that believes one must have this Aaronic Priesthood to baptize and assumes this is what Jesus gave John. There is no such requirement in the Bible. Aaronic priests did not baptize.

 

[He is the way]

You are assuming something that's not there based on something that's not true. Poor theology for sure.

John was not a priest. He lived in the wilderness for most of his life. So him having the Aaronic Priesthood is just plain false.

It's only your church that believes one must have this Aaronic Priesthood to baptize and assumes this is what Jesus gave John. There is no such requirement in the Bible. Aaronic priests did not baptize.

John living in the wilderness has nothing to do with his authority or his priesthood. Why do anyone assume that John had no authority to baptize? Are you saying that his authority did not come from heaven? You say "Aaronic priests did not baptize." How do you know they didn't? Not everything is in the Bible.

 

[dzheremi]

John living in the wilderness has nothing to do with his authority or his priesthood. Why do anyone assume that John had no authority to baptize? Are you saying that his authority did not come from heaven? You say "Aaronic priests did not baptize." How do you know they didn't? Not everything is in the Bible.

Okay then. Where is literally any non-Mormon source about Aaronic priests baptizing people? I am aware of their duty being limited to offering sacrifices in the temple, teaching the Torah, blessing the people -- nothing about them baptizing anyone.

If it actually happened, there should be evidence for it outside of JS' imagination.

 

[mmksparbud]

Jesus did not reveal His authority, neither did He reveal John's authority to baptize. However, Jesus did mention that John had the authority. That is how we know that John had the priesthood.

Again and again---John was never trained to be a priest. He resided in the desert and always was indented for preaching and baptizing---He had never been ordained into the priesthood and could not ordain anyone into the priesthood. The mere fact that JS says he had this vision proves JS was not a prophet of God.

 

[He is the way]

Okay then. Where is literally any non-Mormon source about Aaronic priests baptizing people? I am aware of their duty being limited to offering sacrifices in the temple, teaching the Torah, blessing the people -- nothing about them baptizing anyone.

If it actually happened, there should be evidence for it outside of JS' imagination.

Those who performed baptisms in the New Testament were set apart by Christ for that duty in the church. For example Peter, Paul, and Phillip were given that authority. The command to baptize, was given to them, not to every believer indiscriminately. There is no evidence to show members baptized one another.

 

[Rescued One]

Mormonism:
Boys and men are not ordained to the Aaronic Priesthood prior to baptism. They cannot baptize without having become Priests in the Aaronic Priesthood.

There are four offices, in the Aaronic Priesthood: deacon, teacher, priest and bishop (a bishop also holds the Melchizedek Priesthood and leads a local congregation). Usually, deacons are ages 12 to 14, teachers ages 14 to 16 and priests ages 16 to 18.
Aaronic Priesthood

How many times were Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery ordained?

According to the account in Joseph Smith–History 1:68, the first Latter Day Saint baptisms occurred on May 15, 1829, when Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery baptized each other in the Susquehanna River near Harmony, Pennsylvania shortly after receiving the Aaronic priesthood from John the Baptist.
Baptism in Mormonism - Wikipedia

68 We still continued the work of translation, when, in the ensuing month (May, 1829), we on a certain day went into the woods to pray and inquire of the Lord respecting baptism for the remission of sins, that we found mentioned in the translation of the plates. While we were thus employed, praying and calling upon the Lord, a messenger from heaven descended in a cloud of light, and having laid his hands upon us, he ordained us, saying:

69 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.

70 He said this Aaronic Priesthood had not the power of laying on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, but that this should be conferred on us hereafter; and he commanded us to go and be baptized, and gave us directions that I should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that afterwards he should baptize me.

71 Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me—after which I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on me and ordained me to the same Priesthood—for so we were commanded.*

72 The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us, and that I should be called the first Elder of the Church, and he (Oliver Cowdery) the second. It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized.

73 Immediately on our coming up out of the water after we had been baptized, we experienced great and glorious blessings from our Heavenly Father. No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and prophesied many things which should shortly come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation.
Joseph Smith—History 1