LDS Mormonism and Non-Mormons

truefiction1 · Jan 24, 2020

He is the way said:
Baptism is a NECESSARY REQUIRED ordinance. God does not change His mind. He does however make baptism available to everyone through proxy baptism for the dead as mentioned in the Bible. There are millions of people waiting for this ordinance to be performed on their behalf so they can continue their progress. God has not changed His mind about this ordinance or about how it is to be performed.

Why didn't Christ require the thief who was crucified alongside Him to be baptized prior to letting him be with Him that very day in paradise? It's generally understood by Christians that God is Love, and does not require "NECESSARY REQUIRED ORDINANCES" to save a penitent person who confesses Him as Lord and asks for His mercy. It is "by grace, through faith" that we are saved, and not by works of the Law. We don't need to baptize dead people. It is wholly up to God what happens with regards to those whose time on earth has come and gone. Remember the rich man, how after he had left this life where he had received good things, as opposed to Lazarus who had suffered throughout his life? Did Jesus Christ say that being "baptized by proxy" would have any bearing upon his being able to cross, "the great chasm that is affixed" between him and Lazarus, who was in Abraham's bosom? I think not.

The Lord did not command us to baptize the dead, only the living. Since the Lord has never commanded it, we're not going to do it. If the Lord and his authoritative ministers whom He left in charge of doctrine and practice had thought it needful to do, then we would be doing it. But this is clearly not the case.

And I must add... the lds do not obey all of Christ's commands, so why bother making such a big deal about baptizing the dead (which you should not do, in any case) when you don't even obey the most essential of all commands? Huh? Do yourselves a gigantic favor and don't waste your time. Pray for the souls of your deceased loved ones, because it is good to do this. Ask them to pray for you if you feel so inclined. But any more than this you should not bother with.

He is the way · Jan 24, 2020

truefiction1 said:
Yes, we too believe in the resurrection of the body. And as I already stated, Paul mentioned a practice that he had become aware of, but he did not say that it was something that must be, or even ought to be done. He also speculated whether their could be any forgiveness of sins committed after one's baptism, and seemed to be saying that their could be none. So if you commit any intentional sin after you've been baptized, you might as well just eat, drink, and be merry, because you're going to hell forever after this life.

Paul was not speculating about what happens to the dead. Some people might think that out of sight, out of mind, but those who have passed away are very much aware of what is happening.

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6 - 8)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

He is the way · Jan 24, 2020

truefiction1 said:
Why didn't Christ require the thief who was crucified alongside Him to be baptized prior to letting him be with Him that very day in paradise? It's generally understood by Christians that God is Love, and does not require "NECESSARY REQUIRED ORDINANCES" to save a penitent person who confesses Him as Lord and asks for His mercy. It is "by grace, through faith" that we are saved, and not by works of the Law. We don't need to baptize dead people. It is wholly up to God what happens with regards to those whose time on earth has come and gone. Remember the rich man, how after he had left this life where he had received good things, as opposed to Lazarus who had suffered throughout his life? Did Jesus Christ say that being "baptized by proxy" would have any bearing upon his being able to cross, "the great chasm that is affixed" between him and Lazarus, who was in Abraham's bosom? I think not.

The Lord did not command us to baptize the dead, only the living. Since the Lord has never commanded it, we're not going to do it. If the Lord and his authoritative ministers whom He left in charge of doctrine and practice had thought it needful to do, then we would be doing it. But this is clearly not the case.

And I must add... the lds do not obey all of Christ's commands, so why bother making such a big deal about baptizing the dead (which you should not do, in any case) when you don't even obey the most essential of all commands? Huh? Do yourselves a gigantic favor and don't waste your time. Pray for the souls of your deceased loved ones, because it is good to do this. Ask them to pray for you if you feel so inclined. But any more than this you should not bother with.

Paradise is NOT the kingdom of heaven. Paradise is in the spirit world.

You said: "Since the Lord has never commanded it, we're not going to do it."

Yes the Lord did command it, but only those who are authorized can do it.

truefiction1 · Jan 24, 2020

He is the way said:
Paul was not speculating about what happens to the dead. Some people might think that out of sight, out of mind, but those who have passed away are very much aware of what is happening.

(New Testament | 1 Peter 4:6 - 8)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

Neither do we believe that the dead are unconscious. They just don't need us to perform baptisms on them, because after their souls are detached from their bodies, it makes no difference with regards to them. Thus, we don't do it.

truefiction1 · Jan 24, 2020

He is the way said:
Paradise is NOT the kingdom of heaven. Paradise is in the spirit world.

You said: "Since the Lord has never commanded it, we're not going to do it."

Yes the Lord did command it, but only those who are authorized can do it.

When and where does Christ explicitly command anyone to baptize dead people? He doesn't, yet you insist they must be baptized. The things He does explicitly command, this you do not do. This should concern you, and give you cause for alarm.

truefiction1 · Jan 24, 2020

He is the way said:
Paradise is NOT the kingdom of heaven. Paradise is in the spirit world.

You said: "Since the Lord has never commanded it, we're not going to do it."

Yes the Lord did command it, but only those who are authorized can do it.

To be in paradise is to be with Christ, our King, where He is; in His Kingdom.

He is the way · Jan 24, 2020

truefiction1 said:
To be in paradise is to be with Christ, our King, where He is; in His Kingdom.

Everyone returns to God when they die, that does not mean that they go to the kingdom of heaven:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:6 - 7)

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

There are two places in the spirit world, spirit prison, and paradise. Neither one of them is the kingdom of heaven. No unbaptized person is allowed to see the kingdom of heaven according to God.

He is the way · Jan 24, 2020

truefiction1 said:
When and where does Christ explicitly command anyone to baptize dead people? He doesn't, yet you insist they must be baptized. The things He does explicitly command, this you do not do. This should concern you, and give you cause for alarm.

(Old Testament | Malachi 4:4 - 6)

4 ¶ Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Temple Baptism for the Dead (Proxy Baptism or Vicarious Baptism) | The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Baptisms for the Dead

truefiction1 · Jan 24, 2020

He is the way said:
Everyone returns to God when they die, that does not mean that they go to the kingdom of heaven:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:6 - 7)

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

There are two places in the spirit world, spirit prison, and paradise. Neither one of them is the kingdom of heaven. No unbaptized person is allowed to see the kingdom of heaven according to God.

Nonsense. I've already told you that God, according to His own perfect will and ways, takes care of performing whatever baptism is needed for those who weren't able to be baptized by any of us before their passing. God needs nothing from you to take care of them. God does not depend on any of us for anything. If God had deemed it so important for baptism to be performed on people who have already died, then it most certainly would have been given as a commandment by Christ. Christ gave many important commandments. To baptize the dead was not one of them. Thus, we don't do it. We do such things as He commanded. You, however, don't keep His most essential commandment, so don't even bother with this thing which He never even commanded.

mmksparbud · Jan 24, 2020

He is the way said:
(Old Testament | Malachi 4:4 - 6)

4 ¶ Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Temple Baptism for the Dead (Proxy Baptism or Vicarious Baptism) | The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Baptisms for the Dead

We claim the death of Jesus for ourselves, His shed blood in place of our deserved eternal death. What in the world is so hard to imagine that His baptism---which He had no sin to be baptized for---can be used to cover those who, like the thief on the cross, were unable to do so?

truefiction1 · Jan 24, 2020

He is the way said:
(Old Testament | Malachi 4:4 - 6)

4 ¶ Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Temple Baptism for the Dead (Proxy Baptism or Vicarious Baptism) | The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Baptisms for the Dead

Nowhere in the entire Bible, or the Law of Moses, is there an ordinance given to baptize a deceased person. The Jews did not do any such thing. Jesus Christ, as a Jewish rabbi, performed no such ritual of baptizing deceased persons. The holy Forerunner and Baptist John did not baptize dead people and neither did Jesus or His disciples. Certain Christians may have been doing it in Corinth during Paul's time, but they obviously stopped the practice upon figuring out how stupid it is, considering that God has no need of our doing this when He can do it Himself if He wills, using whatever means that God is capable of.

truefiction1 · Jan 24, 2020

He is the way said:
There are two places in the spirit world, spirit prison, and paradise. Neither one of them is the kingdom of heaven. No unbaptized person is allowed to see the kingdom of heaven according to God.

This is actually not true. You see, the Kingdom of God is not so much a physical place, really: rather, it is more a state of spiritual existence. The Bible gives some pointers on what the Kingdom of Heaven is, and it is not as you are depicting it to be:

Romans 14:17
Luke 17:21

To have God in you, (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is to be in the Kingdom of Heaven. Paul had been there, as did all of the Apostles when they were in the fullness of the Holy Spirit. I've been there too, and that is how I know that your religion is peddling what is nothing but a bunch of bologna as if it is the true Gospel.

If you didn't worship your religion so much, then perhaps you too would long to receive the Holy Spirit as much as these have, so as to repent and seek after the knowledge of the Only True God. Such knowledge as this can be learned by following Christ's Beatitudes. But it will not be acquired by following false prophets.

If the wise thief is "with Christ in paradise", it is because Christ and His Father, is in the soul of this penitent thief, by the Holy Spirit, Whose temple the thief has become. The Bible is always crystal clear on all of these things. The Holy Spirit was in John the Baptist while he was yet inside the watery uterus of Elizabeth, his mother. Perhaps John was "born of water and the Spirit" before even being born. God can baptize any one of us by "water and the Spirit", even in the event that we die before even being born.

He is the way · Jan 24, 2020

truefiction1 said:
Nonsense. I've already told you that God, according to His own perfect will and ways, takes care of performing whatever baptism is needed for those who weren't able to be baptized by any of us before their passing. God needs nothing from you to take care of them. God does not depend on any of us for anything. If God had deemed it so important for baptism to be performed on people who have already died, then it most certainly would have been given as a commandment by Christ. Christ gave many important commandments. To baptize the dead was not one of them. Thus, we don't do it. We do such things as He commanded. You, however, don't keep His most essential commandment, so don't even bother with this thing which He never even commanded.

You said: "I've already told you that God, according to His own perfect will and ways, takes care of performing whatever baptism is needed for those who weren't able to be baptized by any of us before their passing."

Yes you did say this, but where is this mentioned?

You said: "God needs nothing from you to take care of them. God does not depend on any of us for anything."

So why did Paul mention baptism for the dead if it is not necessary? Why was the gospel preached to the dead. Why do we need to do works to glorify God? Why is the gospel preached? Why does He want us to find the lost sheep and bring them back? Why didn't God build the temples?

truefiction1 · Jan 24, 2020

He is the way said:
You said: "I've already told you that God, according to His own perfect will and ways, takes care of performing whatever baptism is needed for those who weren't able to be baptized by any of us before their passing."

Yes you did say this, but where is this mentioned?

You said: "God needs nothing from you to take care of them. God does not depend on any of us for anything."

So why did Paul mention baptism for the dead if it is not necessary? Why was the gospel preached to the dead. Why do we need to do works to glorify God? Why is the gospel preached? Why does He want us to find the lost sheep and bring them back? Why didn't God build the temples?

John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit in him while yet in the watery womb of Elizabeth. Baptism is baptism, even if God alone performs it in His own, mysterious ways.

He is the way · Jan 24, 2020

mmksparbud said:
We claim the death of Jesus for ourselves, His shed blood in place of our deserved eternal death. What in the world is so hard to imagine that His baptism---which He had no sin to be baptized for---can be used to cover those who, like the thief on the cross, were unable to do so?

If Jesus' baptism covers everyone, why are we commanded to be baptized? Do you believe that we are to do nothing because Jesus did everything for us?

He is the way · Jan 24, 2020

truefiction1 said:
This is actually not true. You see, the Kingdom of God is not so much a physical place, really: rather, it is more a state of spiritual existence. The Bible gives some pointers on what the Kingdom of Heaven is, and it is not as you are depicting it to be:

Romans 14:17
Luke 17:21

To have God in you, (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is to be in the Kingdom of Heaven. Paul had been there, as did all of the Apostles when they were in the fullness of the Holy Spirit. I've been there too, and that is how I know that your religion is peddling what is nothing but a bunch of bologna as if it is the true Gospel.

If you didn't worship your religion so much, then perhaps you too would long to receive the Holy Spirit as much as these have, so as to repent and seek after the knowledge of the Only True God. Such knowledge as this can be learned by following Christ's Beatitudes. But it will not be acquired by following false prophets.

If the wise thief is "with Christ in paradise", it is because Christ and His Father, is in the soul of this penitent thief, by the Holy Spirit, Whose temple the thief has become. The Bible is always crystal clear on all of these things. The Holy Spirit was in John the Baptist while he was yet inside the watery uterus of Elizabeth, his mother. Perhaps John was "born of water and the Spirit" before even being born. God can baptize any one of us by "water and the Spirit", even in the event that we die before even being born.

You said: "I've been there too, and that is how I know that your religion is peddling what is nothing but a bunch of bologna as if it is the true Gospel."

Have you had a near death experience? Did you meet family members?

truefiction1 · Jan 24, 2020

He is the way said:
If Jesus' baptism covers everyone, why are we commanded to be baptized? Do you believe that we are to do nothing because Jesus did everything for us?

Jesus wanted us to be baptized, and to baptize living people because something about doing this is essential for our own spiritual well being. The same goes for all of God's commandments. The commandments are for man; not man for the commandments. (Mark 2:27)

truefiction1 · Jan 24, 2020

He is the way said:
You said: "I've been there too, and that is how I know that your religion is peddling what is nothing but a bunch of bologna as if it is the true Gospel."

Have you had a near death experience? Did you meet family members?

No, I've been blessed to have been in the Holy Spirit at times, and so I can relate (though it may be only a little) to the Apostle Paul's expression:

“No eye has seen,

no ear has heard,

no heart has imagined,

what God has prepared for those who love Him.” But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. And this is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom, but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. (1 Corinthians 2:9-13)

truefiction1 · Jan 24, 2020

All I can think to say at this point, is that you have many times referred to LOVE in the course of these discussions.

If there is anything at all that I know to be undeniably true, it is this: If we would experience that LOVE the God is, that LOVE that is totally inexpressible, because it without limits, then we must receive this by the Holy Spirit. Without God's Spirit we can nowise receive it.

That, my dear friend, is no bologna.

He is the way · Jan 24, 2020

truefiction1 said:
Jesus wanted us to be baptized, and to baptize living people because something about doing this is essential for our own spiritual well being. The same goes for all of God's commandments. The commandments are for man; not man for the commandments. (Mark 2:27)

Yes it is for sure we need baptism for the remission of sins.

LDS Mormonism and Non-Mormons

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