More terrorism uncovered!

[Hetta]

Where are the teachings that say the government should be taking care of the poor? They are not there, so I have to admit that their pov is valid.
However, I do get what you are saying. The church has been so divided into separate groups that the funds that are given by Christians are not pooled together and therefore are not as effective as they could be. Also in some churches many, many dollars are spend on luxuries while people go without life sustaining needs.
There are also the teachings that one needs to work for a living if they are able. The government is ineffective in seeing that this happens. I am all for supporting people who need help but those people need to be encouraged to do something in return that is beneficial to the society that helps them, not just for society but for their own sense of self-worth and the example that they set for their children, which again benefits society as a whole.

The government is made up of people, no? The government taxes people to provide for the people, and the reason that is done is because "people" (used loosely) were not taking care of people, so the poor and the needy and the sick were dying. Left to their own devices, I doubt that many would actively attempt to help the poor. I daily see comments about "lazy" people. Anyone on benefits is designated thus, regardless of their circumstances. They should be drug tested, they shouldn't have nice things, they shouldn't eat good food, they shouldn't have phones or private transport, they should sell everything they have, etc etc. I won't even address how stupid those ideas are - how does one get employed if a prospective employer cannot call for an interview? I am glad to pay taxes to help others to live a better life.

 

[stamperben]

Where are the teachings that say the government should be taking care of the poor? They are not there, so I have to admit that their pov is valid.
However, I do get what you are saying. The church has been so divided into separate groups that the funds that are given by Christians are not pooled together and therefore are not as effective as they could be. Also in some churches many, many dollars are spend on luxuries while people go without life sustaining needs.
There are also the teachings that one needs to work for a living if they are able. The government is ineffective in seeing that this happens. I am all for supporting people who need help but those people need to be encouraged to do something in return that is beneficial to the society that helps them, not just for society but for their own sense of self-worth and the example that they set for their children, which again benefits society as a whole.

As is prevalent in the bible there is much that isn't said. Can you show me the teachings that prohibit the government taking care of the poor?

 

[AionPhanes]

I don't pretend to define Islam. Mohammad did that by his own behaviors and actions. Or are you saying that Mohammad was not a 'true Muslim' practicing 'true Islam'?

"True Islam advocates terrorism" and "those who reject terrorism are not practicing True Islam" is a specific interpretation of the teachings of Muhammad. One that Muslims are in no way required to adopt. One that many Muslims would classify as absurd. There are numerous methods of exegesis and hermeneutic approaches to the Quran and hadith taken by widely divergent Islamic individuals and schools of thought. There are radically different interpretations of Islam obtained thereby in the Islamic community as a whole. Your understanding / interpretation isn't a guiding principle for non terrorist supporting Muslims.

 

[lupusFati]

You are just obnoxious, immature, and rude. I owe you no discussion until you can speak and behave as an adult.

Oh I'm sorry, did I hurt your feelings? I guess you can't argue against my point so you have to resort to attacking my character. I believe that's called "Ad Hominem".

As for "behaving like an adult", how would you define that? Or does it just mean I have to agree with you, otherwise I'm childish? I don't see how being direct and honest is less "adult", especially when I do not regularly promote hate speech against muslims, gays, women, etc. As I have seen many on this forum do.

If anyone needs to grow up on this site, it certainly isn't me. Also, my personal growth and development isn't up for debate here. Argue the point or not at all, that's your choice. But don't call me a child just because you can't handle someone like me.

 

[AionPhanes]

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I don't pretend to define Islam. Mohammad did that by his own behaviors and actions. Or are you saying that Mohammad was not a 'true Muslim' practicing 'true Islam'?

"True Islam requires support for terrorism" is one interpretation or understanding of the teachings of Muhammad. One that isn't incumbent on Muslims. One that many Muslims would also consider down right absurd. There are widely divergent manners of exegesis and hermeneutic method practiced by members of diverse Islamic schools of thought and communities. This results in many different understandings of what constitutes true Islam. Muslims who reject terrorism would also reject your interpretation of what true Islam entails.

Edit.... oops I thought the other one didn't post. I rewrote this for nothing.

 

[AionPhanes]

A liberal Ismaili Muslim living in Canada and a conservative Sunni from Saudi Arabia; an Iranian mullah and a Turkish Bektashi sheikh ; a Syrian ISIS supporter and a Muslim American peace movement supporter; a scholar of Hadith from Lebanon and a Quranist who rejects the Hadith all together; an Indian Sufi who honors local Hindu saints and a radical Pakistani cleric who hates Hindus in general..... all will have radically different understandings of Islam.

 

[JGG]

We could discuss that scripture if you would like to post it.

Discuss what? It says what it says.

Luke 14:26 - If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Are we going to judge True Christianity by what Jesus said, or what we want Jesus to have said?

 

[Hank77]

Can you show me the teachings that prohibit the government taking care of the poor?

Nope, I don't see anything in scripture against it.

There are numerous methods of exegesis and hermeneutic approaches to the Quran and hadith taken by widely divergent Islamic individuals and schools of thought. There are radically different interpretations of Islam obtained thereby in the Islamic community as a whole. Your understanding / interpretation isn't a guiding principle for non terrorist supporting Muslims.

I'll say it again, please try harder to understand.
I do not have ANY interpretation of the Quran, I don't judge Islam by anyone's interpretation of the Quran. I simply look at the history of the man they say is their prophet and teacher, that they say is the founder of Islam. History shows us that he was a violent man, a war lord, he conquered tribes across the ME and if they resisted him they were killed. This is the way Islam was spread.
Are you claiming that Mohammad did not do these things? Are you claiming that he was a peaceful, religious man?
What do you claim about Mohammad?

 

[AionPhanes]

Nope, I don't see anything in scripture against it.

I'll say it again, please try harder to understand.
I do not have ANY interpretation of the Quran, I don't judge Islam by anyone's interpretation of the Quran. I simply look at the history of the man they say is their prophet and teacher, that they say is the founder of Islam. History shows us that he was a violent man, a war lord, he conquered tribes across the ME and if they resisted him they were killed. This is the way Islam was spread.
Are you claiming that Mohammad did not do these things? Are you claiming that he was a peaceful, religious man?
What do you claim about Mohammad?

Your understanding of what the history of Muhammad, his apparent actions, teachings, etc.. implies regarding the nature of Islam isn't necesarily shared by Muslims. They may come to very different conclusions regarding how modern day Muslims should behave based on their reading of the Quran through a different hermeneutical lense. They may or may not base their understanding of Islam on the other historical texts you trust. They might also use some of the same texts and yet draw different conclusions. This is what matters.

To claim that your understanding of Islam, or what it's history implies, involves no act of interpretation makes no sense. I'm not misunderstanding you I'm just rejecting your premise. "Because Muhammad appears to have done things that would make me call him a warlord that means Muslims who don't commit acts of terrorism are being untrue to their religion." <~ Any statement along those lines would be intrepretation.

 

[Hank77]

Discuss what? It says what it says.

Luke 14:26 - If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Are we going to judge True Christianity by what Jesus said, or what we want Jesus to have said?

Luk 14:26 `If any one doth come unto me, and doth not hate his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, and yet even his own life, he is not able to be my disciple;
(keep reading the rest of what Jesus said about this in chapter 14) Then compare to another scripture using the same Greek word for hate.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3404&t=KJV

Luk 16:13 `No domestic is able to serve two lords, for either the one he will hate, and the other he will love; or one he will hold to, and of the other he will be heedless; ye are not able to serve God and (father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, self) mammon.'

Do you understand now? In other words one cannot put anyone or anything before serving God, including oneself. We should hate the very idea of it as it is idolatry to love/serve someone or something more than God.

 

[JGG]

Luk 14:26 `If any one doth come unto me, and doth not hate his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, and yet even his own life, he is not able to be my disciple;
(keep reading the rest of what Jesus said about this in chapter 14) Then compare to another scripture using the same Greek word for hate.
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3404&t=KJV

Luk 16:13 `No domestic is able to serve two lords, for either the one he will hate, and the other he will love; or one he will hold to, and of the other he will be heedless; ye are not able to serve God and (father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, self) mammon.'

Do you understand now? In other words one cannot put anyone or anything before serving God, including oneself. We should hate the very idea of it as it is idolatry to love/serve someone or something more than God.

Yes I get it. Jesus said to hate your father, mother, brother, etc...

I'm not interpreting, I'm just reading what Jesus said.

 

[Hank77]

You're understanding of what the history of Muhammad, his apparent actions, teachings, etc.. implies regarding the nature of Islam isn't necesarily shared by Muslims. They may come to very different conclusions regarding how modern day Muslims should behave based on their reading of the Quran through a different hermeneutical lense.

I don't care about the Quran as they say it is not a book that gives one interpretation. If they believe that they should be able to interpret it differently because of this Modern day, than it's no wonder they get in trouble with other Muslims who believe that Mohammad was a prophet from Allah who taught the correct way.

"Because Muhammad appears to have done things that would make me call him a warlord

What would you call him?

 

[Hank77]

Yes I get it. Jesus said to hate your father, mother, brother, etc...

I'm not interpreting, I'm just reading what Jesus said.

I can't help you seeing you choose to ignore the Greek language and compare how the word is used by Greek authors in other Greek writings. Or to read the verse in context.

 

[JGG]

I can't help you seeing you choose to ignore the Greek language and compare how the word is used by Greek authors in other Greek writings.

I accept your concession and apology.

 

[G54]

Discuss what? It says what it says.

Luke 14:26 - If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Are we going to judge True Christianity by what Jesus said, or what we want Jesus to have said?

I believe the word hate there comes from the Greek ..misew...which translated in the context of this verse would mean to "love less". Therefore the meaning of this rather difficult verse would be... If any man does not love his father, mother, etc ~less~ than Christ...

In other words, we are to love Jesus more than anything, even our family and ourselves.


Edit...Oops, sorry, I see this has been brought up. Too slow

 

[Hank77]

I believe the word hate there comes from the Greek ..misew...which translated in the context of this verse would mean to "love less". Therefore the meaning of this rather difficult verse would be... If any man does not love his father, mother, etc ~less~ than Christ...

In other words, we are to love Jesus more than anything, even our family and ourselves.


Edit...Oops, sorry, I see this has been brought up. Too slow

It always good to have confirmation.

 

[JGG]

I believe the word hate there comes from the Greek ..misew...which translated in the context of this verse would mean to "love less". Therefore the meaning of this rather difficult verse would be... If any man does not love his father, mother, etc ~less~ than Christ...

In other words, we are to love Jesus more than anything, even our family and ourselves.


Edit...Oops, sorry, I see this has been brought up. Too slow

Does it say how much less? Do I not love less those I hate? Thus, let's just use the word hate.

 

[G54]

Does it say how much less? Do I not love less those I hate? Thus, let's just use the word hate.

I don't think how much less is specified, and isn't the point. The point is to love the Lord more than anything else, with all our heart. Also the fifth commandment says to honor your Father and Mother. Hating them in the common useage of the word doesn't seem very honoring. And again we are commanded to love our neighbor as ourselves.

 

[lupusFati]

Basically it's saying if you have to choose between your family or God, then you're supposed to choose God.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

10 of the Worst Terror Attacks by Extreme Christians and Far-Right White Men

Most of the terrorist activity in the U.S. in recent years has come not from Muslims, but from radical Christianists, white supremacists and far-right militia groups.​

You touched a bit on this in a different thread...my answer in this thread is still the same as it was in the other one.

Typically, when authors set to out write an article to "prove that other groups can be just as bad as Islamic extremists", they often have to resort to some crafty means to be able to try to make their point.

Often times, they lump 5 or 6 different groups under the blanket term of "Right wing" simply so they can say "right wing produces more terrorism than Islamic extremists". They often times also have to include qualifiers like "in the US" and "since 9/11" in order to get the numbers to a place where they can make their case.

...and like I said in the previous article, the fact that these authors have to go as far as trying to lump Neo-Nazis in with "right wing" is a bit laughable given their tendencies toward the advocacy of socialism.

As noted in the other thread where you and I discussed this:
KKK
Neo-Nazis
Anti-abortionists
Anti-government
Christian extremists

...are all very different affiliations with different missions and different attitudes towards things...there might be some slight overlap in a few regards, but that doesn't make them all one big happy family. Put some anti-government extremists in a room with some Neo-Nazis and see if they get along... Attempting to lump them all into the same group of "Far Right" is little more than a creative way of aggregating the stats from 5 distinct different groups to create a grand total that helps them try to make their point...because the stats from each one of these groups individually would be counter-productive to the point that they're attempting to make.