More flood questions...

AV1611VET

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The ark must have been an amazing example of pre-civilization engineering.
Not really -- it was simply rendered indestructible until its purpose was fulfilled.
Not only must Noah make enough room on his boat to store all of this food, but he must have some way to keep it fresh and consumable for over a year--without refrigeration.
Not really -- I doubt Noah even took any food aboard.

Just like God sustained the widow of Zarephath in 1 Kings 17, He could have simply used one feeding trough to feed the entire animal population of the Ark for its entire duration.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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The ark must have been an amazing example of pre-civilization engineering.

Large herbivores, like elephants, eat about 350 pounds of vegetation a day. Large carnivores, like lions, eat about 75 pounds of meat a week. Not only must Noah make enough room on his boat to store all of this food, but he must have some way to keep it fresh and consumable for over a year--without refrigeration. (That's about 120 tons of food, for one year, for one pair of elephants. How many "kinds" of elephants where there on the ark? Perhaps five might cover it, that's 600 tons of food.)
No big deal.

Feeding sailors on a US aircraft carrier is an art of war - Monsters and Critics

For the USS Enterprise, America's first nuclear powered aircraft carrier that went into service in 1961, the feeding its sailors is one the largest daily operation on board.

The carrier, with some 5,000 sailors on board, is currently sailing through the Gulf supporting the US military occupation of Iraq and ongoing maritime security operations.

'We keep a food stock worth between 1.5 to 2.8 million US dollars on board and we get replenishments every 7 to 10 days,' USS Enterprise Food Service Officer Ken Howard told Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa. 'An average load would cost me 1.8 million US dollars worth of food.'

The ship's culinary operation also supplies the smaller ships in the battle group if needed. Altogether, the USS Enterprise, or 'BIG E' as it is also known, goes through 3,000 pounds of fried chicken per meal, along with 8,000 pounds of bacon, about 6,000 dozen of eggs, 24,000 pounds of hamburgers, and 44,000 pounds of hot dogs a month.

The sailors consume 12,000 pounds of rice, 3,000 pounds of fish, about 8,000 pounds of steak, about 8,000 pounds of fresh potatoes, and 8-9,000 pounds of lettuce per month.

They also go through 1,200 gallons of soda drinks, 1,800 gallons of milk, and 4,000 gallons of orange juice.

The Big E bake shop goes through more than 400 pounds of flour a day and 120 pounds of sugar, allowing it to make enough bread for 6,000 people.
***

Genesis 7:13
"In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort."

All of the animals boarded the ark "in the selfsame day." Since there were several million kinds of species, they would need to board at a rate of at least 100 per second. How did poor Noah and his family make sure that the correct number of each species entered through the door and then get them all settled into their proper living quarters so efficiently?
Have you ever heard of a miracle?

Miracle - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Main Entry: mir·a·cle
Pronunciation: \ˈmir-i-kəl\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirari to wonder at
Date: 12th century
1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs
2 : an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment
3 Christian Science : a divinely natural phenomenon experienced humanly as the fulfillment of spiritual law
***

How could he tell the male and female beetles (there are more than 400,000 species) apart?
Noah was the grandson of Methuselah and the great grandson of Enoch.

Therefore he was one of the greatest scientists and biologists who ever lived in recorded history having been personally instructed in matters of science and genetic engineering by extraterrestrial angels of the fallen variety who landed on Mount Hermon in U.F.O. spacecraft.

1ynuk8.jpg


"After the fallen angels went into the daughters of men, the sons of men taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order to provoke the Lord." -- Jasher 4:18

"And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the working of them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antinomy, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all coloring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven." -- Enoch 8:1-2

"And he [Methuselah] was moreover with the angels of God these six jubilees of years, and they showed him everything which is on the earth and in the heavens, the rule of the sun, and he wrote down everything." -- Jubilees 4:21

Genesis 8:20
"And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar."

Noah kills the "clean beasts" and burns their dead bodies for God. This would have caused the extinction of all "clean" animals since only two of each were taken onto the ark.
Took of every species does not mean every individual.
 
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theyre here said:
Not only must Noah make enough room on his boat to store all of this food, but he must have some way to keep it fresh and consumable for over a year--without refrigeration.

Not really -- I doubt Noah even took any food aboard.

That's not what the Bible says, AV:-

Genesis 1:21 (KJV)
And you shall take for yourself of all food that is eaten, and you shall gather it to yourself; and it shall be food for you and for them.

I doubt whether there were even any animals. The Flood has to be the silliest story in the Bible. I mean, if God can do this...

Genesis 1:24-25
Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

...and we know God was not happy the way the world had become corrupt:-

Genesis 6:5-6
Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”

...why couldn't he have done this:-

Then God said, “Let every living thing of all flesh disappear from the earth. Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind. But two of every kind will I will save, along with Noah, his sons, his wife, and his sons’ wives." And the beast of the earth ceased to exist according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. All disappeared, except for Noah and his family and the pairs of animals. And God saw that it was good.

No boat, no food and no suffering! Trouble is, there was already a Bablylonian flood story and there were those fossils on the mountain tops that had to be explained...
 
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That's not what the Bible says, AV:-

You're right, Mike -- my mistake.

Good catch! :thumbsup:
No boat, no food and no suffering!
Because instant annihilation would have all those who drowned in the Flood going to Hell w/o a chance to make what we call a "deathbed confession".
Trouble is, there was already a Bablylonian flood story and there were those fossils on the mountain tops that had to be explained...
Babylon wasn't built until well after the Flood -- by Noah's great-grandson Nimrod.

QV please: The Sixteen Grandsons of Noah.
 
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I doubt whether there were even any animals.
Well if you doubt the existence of animals in antiquity I guess it's not surprising you also doubt the Holy Bible.

The Flood has to be the silliest story in the Bible.
According to fundamentalist atheism, more than 80-90% of the world population in recorded history is silly.

"O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you. ... in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon [Venus], the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals; at such times those who live upon the mountains and in dry and lofty places are more liable to destruction than those who dwell by rivers or on the seashore. And from this calamity the Nile, who is our never-failing saviour, delivers and preserves us. When, on the other hand, the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water, the survivors in your country are herdsmen and shepherds who dwell on the mountains, but those who, like you, live in cities are carried by the rivers into the sea. Whereas in this land, neither then nor at any other time, does the water come down from above on the fields, having always a tendency to come up from below; for which reason the traditions preserved here are the most ancient. The fact is, that wherever the extremity of winter frost or of summer does not prevent, mankind exist, sometimes in greater, sometimes in lesser numbers. And whatever happened either in your country or in ours, or in any other region of which we are informed-if there were any actions noble or great or in any other way remarkable, they have all been written down by us of old, and are preserved in our temples. Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, comes pouring down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and education; and so you have to begin all over again like children, and know nothing of what happened in ancient times, either among us or among yourselves. As for those genealogies of yours which you just now recounted to us, Solon, they are no better than the tales of children. In the first place you remember a single deluge only, but there were many previous ones; in the next place, you do not know that there formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and noblest race of men which ever lived, and that you and your whole city are descended from a small seed or remnant of them which survived. And this was unknown to you, because, for many generations, the survivors of that destruction died, leaving no written word. For there was a time, Solon, before the great deluge of all, when the city which now is Athens was first in war and in every way the best governed of all cities, is said to have performed the noblest deeds and to have had the fairest constitution of any of which tradition tells, under the face of heaven. " -- Sonchis of Sais, priest, 6th century B.C.

"Many great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years, for that is the number of years which have elapsed since the time of which I am speaking...." --Plato, philosopher, Critias, 360 B.C.

"...the time must come when this place will be flooded again." -- Aristotle, philosopher, Meteorology, 350 B.C.

"And so even to the Athenians themselves, though they built the city of Sais in Egypt, yet by reason of the flood, were led into the same error of forgetting what was before." -- Diodorus Siculus, historian, ~1st century B.C.

"Afterwards, when most of the inhabitants of Greece were destroyed by flood, and all records and ancient monuments perished with them, the Egyptians took this occasion to appropriate the study of astrology solely to themselves; and whereas the Grecians (through ignorance) as yet valued not learning, it became a general opinion that the Egyptians were the first that found out the knowledge of the stars." -- Diodorus Siculus, historian, ~1st century B.C.

"And in the time of Crotopus occurred the burning of Phaethon, and the deluges of Deucalion." -- Clement of Alexandria, priest, Stromata, 2nd century

"One and seventy Ages are styled here a Patriarchate (manvantara); at it's end is said to be a twilight which has the number of years of a Golden Age, and which is a deluge." -- Brahmarishi Mayan, demon, The Surya Siddhanta, 490

"In the life of Manco Capac, who was the first Inca, and from whom they began to boast themselves children of the Sun and from whom they derived their idolatrous worship of the Sun, they had an ample account of the deluge. They say that in it perished all races of men and created things insomuch that the waters rose above the highest mountain peaks in the world. No living thing survived except a man and a woman who remained in a box and, when the waters subsided, the wind carried them ... to Tiahuanaco [where] the creator began to raise up the people and the nations that are in that region." -- Cristóbal de Molina, priest, 1572

"They make great mention of a deluge, which happened in their country ... The Indians say that all men were drowned in the deluge, and they report that out of Lake Titicaca came one Viracocha, who stayed in Tiahuanaco, where at this day there are to be seen ruins of ancient and very strange buildings, and from thence came to Cuzco, and so began to multiply." -- José de Acosta, priest, 1590

"In the lifetime of [Emperor] Yao the sun did not set for ten full days and the entire land was flooded." -- Johannes Hübner, evangelist, 1729

"Living organisms without number have been the victims of the catastrophes. Some were destroyed by deluges, others were left dry when the seabed was suddenly raised; their races are even finished forever, and all they leave in the world is some debris that is hardly recognizable to the naturalist." -- Georges Cuvier, naturalist, 1819

"Yea, foolish mortals, Noah's flood is not yet subsided; two thirds of the fair world it yet covers." -- Hermann Melville, author, 1851

"The belief in a great deluge is not confined to one nation singly, the Tamanacs; it makes part of a system of historical tradition, of which we find scattered notions among the Maypures of the great cataracts; among the Indians of the Rio Erevato, which runs into the Caura; and among almost all the tribes of the upper Orinoco. When the Tamanacs are asked how the human race survived this great deluge, the 'age of water' of the Mexicans, they say, 'a man and a woman saved themselves on a high mountain, called Tamanacu, situated on the banks of the Asiveru....'" -- Alexander Von Humboldt, Personal Narrative, naturalist, 1852

"I saw at once that I had here discovered a portion at least of the Chaldean account of the Deluge." -- George Smith, archaeologist, 1876

"The fragments of the Chaldean historian, Berosus, preserved in the works of various later writers, have shown that the Babylonians were acquainted with traditions referring to the Creation, the period before the Flood, the Deluge, and other matters forming parts of Genesis." -- George Smith, archaeologist, 1876

"There is, however, one special tradition which seems to be more deeply impressed and more widely spread than any of the others. The destruction of well-nigh the whole human race, in an early age of the world's history, by a great deluge, appears to have impressed the minds of the few survivors, and seems to have been handed down to their children, in consequence, with such terror-struck impressiveness that their remote descendants of the present day have not even yet forgotten it. It appears in almost every mythology, and lives in the most distant countries and among the most barbarous tribes." -- Hugh Miller, geologist, The Testimony of the Rocks, 1892

"The Babylonian account of the deluge is older than the Biblical story. It does not take away from it but rather corroborates its truth." -- Drusilla D. Houston, historian, Wonderful Ethiopians of the Cu[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]e Empire, Chapter XIII: The Civilization of Babylonia, 1926

"In the reign of Osorkon II of the Libyan Dynasty [22nd Dynasty] in Egypt, in the third year, the first month of the second season, on the twelfth day, according to a damaged inscription, 'the flood came on, in this whole land ... this land was in its power like the sea; there was no dyke of the people to withstand its fury. All the people were like birds upon it ... the tempest ... suspended ... like heavens. All the temples of Thebes were like marshes.'" -- Immanuel Velikovsky, polymath, 1950

"For many centuries, indeed until only a few generations ago, the story of Noah was accepted as a historical fact...." -- Leonard Woolley, archaeologist, March 12th 1953

"Geologists from earliest days, but especially from the eighteenth century (Baron Cuvier and others) recognized that a 'flood' had spread a blanket of 'drift' over Europe. Thus, it comes as no surprise that an 'event' 11,000 years ago had the energy and fluid medium to broadcast erratics and other debris in a thick blanket over southern Canada, the Great Lakes region, New England, the prairies of western Canada and the American midwest. Anyone who has pondered the well-established sudden disappearance from the region of whole species of the larger ungulates (elephants, camel, horse, sloth, etc.) and their predators, while the same families of creatures continued, apparently unaffected, elsewhere in the world, will find the 'flood' interpretation of prehistory convenient for explaining the facts." -- C. Warren Hunt, geologist, 1989

"The extent of the Sumerian flood was very substantial: a deposit 8-feet thick covering an area some 400 miles long by 100 miles wide -- a total of many billions of tons of material. And it was this discovery that sent a buzz through the corridors of uniformitarian geology. For here, at last, was evidence of a real Homo diluvii testis -- man a witness to the flood. Because this catastrophic event had occured in recorded history then -- uniquely in the geological record -- here was direct evidence of a substantial sediment that must have been laid down rapidly and all at once, rather than slowly over millions of years. And if this stratum then why not others?" -- Richard Milton, writer, 1992

"Flood legends appear in the mythology of so many cultures that a universal flood has often been invoked to explain their prevalence." -- Dorothy B. Vitaliano, geomythologist, 2007

"Noah's flood is a story so compelling that for centuries it has demanded a scientific explanation. The story clearly refers to an inundation so large that its survivors assumed that the whole world had been affected. People have long sought to tie the Flood to a specific event and location, but only recently has a plausible explanation, based on sound scientific research, been proposed. Ryan & Pitman (1999) hypothesize that postglacial melting elevated sea levels to the extent that the Mediterranean broke through into the Black Sea depression, drowing out so many settlements that a universal flood legend resulted. I am not only convinced that this is the true explanation of the Flood, but I am also impressed with how quickly and effectively these two scientists have brought this long-elusive story into the realm of science-based geomythology." -- Dorothy B. Vitaliano, geomythologist, 2007
 
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Mike Elphick said:
I doubt whether there were even any animals.

Well if you doubt the existence of animals in antiquity I guess it's not surprising you also doubt the Holy Bible.

I doubt whether there were even any animals on board Noah's Ark.

Agonaces of Susa said:
Mike Elphick said:
The Flood has to be the silliest story in the Bible.

According to fundamentalist atheism, more than 80-90% of the world population in recorded history is silly.

Global Flood with a capital 'F'!. Maybe I should have said "Noah's Ark has to be the silliest story in the Bible."

Agonaces of Susa said:
"O Solon, Solon...

What a long post! I never said there had never been any floods (with a lowercase 'f') — just look at Pakistan. What I was questioning was why God had to use such a blunt instrument to murder all those people and innocent animals, when he had the power to make them painlessly vanish. The reason, of course, is not that God caused a flood, but that people ascribed a natural local flood (or ancient myths of actual flood or floods) to an angry God.
 
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What I was questioning was why God had to use such a blunt instrument to murder all those people and innocent animals, when he had the power to make them painlessly vanish.
Murder?

So the Ten Commandments is a do-as-i-say-not-as-i-do list?
 
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<staff edit>.
I don't buy that.

If I were here trying to push Grimm's Fairy Tales past you guys, you'd be guffawing; but the fact that I'm trying to push the Bible past you guys, the laughter seems to carry a tone of true ridicule.

I think if you could look past the ad hominems, the laughter, and the ridicule, you'd see [a genuine] disgust.
 
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ctleff said:
staff edit.

I don't buy that.

Despite what I have written, neither do I, but for reasons different from AV. I respect the writers of the OT &#8212; they were simply trying to make sense of the world, and being scientifically naive, their stories reflect a mixture of religious, mythological and observation sources. Once you appreciate that, the Genesis account starts to make sense. Therefore, to believe the Noah's Ark story is literally true, in this day and age, is pretty silly. But people do :).
 
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Therefore, to believe the Noah's Ark story is literally true, in this day and age, is pretty silly. But people do :).
Maybe you'd like to tell us then, just who (or what) Noah is supposed to represent?
 
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Mike Elphick said:
What I was questioning was why God had to use such a blunt instrument to murder all those people and innocent animals, when he had the power to make them painlessly vanish.

Murder?

Well, Noah can't have been the only righteous person in the world, and there were children and babies, much like in the Pakistani flood — lots of suffering, not to mention the annihilation 99.99% of animal and plant life.

AV1611VET said:
So the Ten Commandments is a do-as-i-say-not-as-i-do list?

It looks like it :).

Referring to your previous post

Because instant annihilation would have all those who drowned in the Flood going to Hell w/o a chance to make what we call a "deathbed confession".

In those days Hell was simply a pit, only later did it get embellished into the terrible place it is now supposed to be, along with the required repentance.
 
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Gilgamesh.
Wow -- just wow.

Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Wikipedia said:
Gilgamesh, and his son Urlugal, rebuilt the sanctuary of the goddess Ninlil, in Tummal, a sacred quarter in her city of Nippur.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Wikipedia said:
Gilgamesh is described as two parts god and one part man.

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

So Noah was a giant (Nephilim)?

God chose a Nephilim to be a type of Christ in the Old Testament?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]No study of the person and character of Noah would be complete without viewing him as a type of the Lord Jesus. With one or two notable exceptions it will be beside our purpose to do more than call attention to some of the most striking points of correspondency between the type and the antitype, leaving our readers to develop at greater length these seed thoughts.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
SOURCE
[/FONT]
 
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Mike Elphick said:
Therefore, to believe the Noah's Ark story is literally true, in this day and age, is pretty silly. But people do :).

Maybe you'd like to tell us then, just who (or what) Noah is supposed to represent?

As I said, part mythological (Gilgamesh), part religious (introduction of the wrathful monotheistic god) and observational (there had been a serious flood). Add to that man's feeling of guilt in which he feels he has done bad things (we all feel that some times) and Noah's Flood represents punishment from above. Maybe Noah was a real person. Who knows?
 
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As I said, part mythological (Gilgamesh), part religious (introduction of the wrathful monotheistic god) and observational (there had been a serious flood). Add to that man's feeling of guilt in which he feels he has done bad things (we all feel that some times) and Noah's Flood represents punishment from above. Maybe Noah was a real person.
In other words -- you don't know.
Who knows?
I do.
 
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Wow -- just wow.

Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

So Noah was a giant (Nephilim)?

God chose a Nephilim to be a type of Christ in the Old Testament?

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
SOURCE
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It's obvious it's from the epic, with alterations to the original, of course. Even the Institute for Creation Research agrees that there is an obvious link between the two stories, even if their reasoning for this link is flawed.

From the early days of the comparative study of these two flood accounts, it has been generally agreed that there is an obvious relationship. The widespread nature of flood traditions throughout the entire human race is excellent evidence for the existence of a great flood from a legal/historical point of view.20 Dating of the oldest fragments of the Gilgamesh account originally indicated that it was older than the assumed dating of Genesis.21 However, the probability exists that the Biblical account had been preserved either as an oral tradition, or in written form handed down from Noah, through the patriarchs and eventually to Moses, thereby making it actually older than the Sumerian accounts which were restatements (with alterations) to the original.
 
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It's obvious it's from the epic, with alterations to the original, of course. Even the Institute for Creation Research agrees that there is an obvious link between the two stories, even if their reasoning for this link is flawed.
ICR can take a hike.

The Epic of Gilgamesh is Satan's cheap imitation for what really happened -- we call it Diabolical Plagiarism.

Has it occurred to you (or ICR) that a copy of the Epic of Gilgamesh can indeed be older than a copy of Genesis 6-9 -- even though Genesis 6-9 was written before the Epic of Gilgamesh?

In addition, notice that Shem -- Noah's son -- lived right up to the time that Jacob was born.

Thus he provided eyewitness testimony from someone who was actually there.

I've said this before, and it bears repeating: I'm sure Shem and Nimrod had some real knock-down-drag-out arguments over Nimrod's trash.
 
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