LDS More False Doctrine Right There in LDS Scripture!

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Men don't become angels or Gods.

Nicely spotted! It's the old imputed vs. imparted teaching. It's also due to the weird and wacky New Age type mix that exist in this hybrid branch of Christianity where the doctrine of Atonement is not accurately portrayed.

 

[withwonderingawe]

". . .I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left . . . "

This one actually came to pass.

This was given to Stephen Douglas on May 18th, 1843 as they ate dinner together and recorded in William Clayton’s journal. (the man who invented the odometer) Joseph explained what had happened when he visited Washington DC and spoke to President Van Buren, who turned down his pleads for help.

Now the whole quote (yes they left some out once again).

“'I prophecy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left for their wickedness in permitting the murder of men, women and children, and the wholesale plunder and extermination of thousands of her citizens to go unpunished, thereby perpetrating a foul and corroding blot upon the fair fame of this great republic, the very thought of which would have caused the high-minded and patriotic framers of the Constitution of the United States to hide their faces with shame. Judge [Stephen A. Douglas], you will aspire to the Presidency of the United States; and if you ever turn your hand against me or the Latter-day Saints, you will feel the weight of the hand of the Almighty upon you; and you will live to see and know that I have testified the truth to you; for the conversation of this day will stick to you through life”

Please notice the “if” part of the prophecy “unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri” like Jonah’s prophecy to Nineveh it is built on an if, if you repent the Lord will not destroy you.

The United States did make a partial redress, the people of Quincy Illinois took the suffering Saints in and helped to provided for them. Then later when they started for the West the Untied States asked the church to provided men for the war with Mexico and paid them in advance for their efforts. With that money they were able to outfit themselves for their journey.

I found this at FairMormon
"…This financial assistance and protection was at least a partial redress for the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the State of Missouri. But it clearly was not enough, for the United States government was "utterly overthrown and wasted" in eleven southern states between 1860 and 1861. After these southern states had seceded from the Union, they rejected the US Constitution and wrote their own constitution for a new government and a new nation, "The Confederate States of America." Then they established their own congress, and elected their own President, Jefferson Davis. By the time these southern states had finished, there was not even a "potsherd left" of the U.S. government within the Confederacy.
But why wasn’t the United States government "utterly overthrown and wasted" in all of the states? Surely this was one possible outcome if the Confederacy had won the Civil War. However, during the course of the war, the United States government implemented Order Number 11, which punished at least some of those officers of the State of Missouri who had committed crimes against the Latter-day Saints. This partial punishment of the Missourian officers and the partial redress to the Saints was enough to mitigate or soften the penalty of the prophecy, so that the US government was not finally "utterly overthrown and wasted" in all of the states. In fact, it was soon after the implementation of Order Number 11 in 1863 that the course of the Civil War favored the Union, not the Confederacy."

There is another way to look at it. In England “the government” does not mean the whole country but the organized government formed by the party in power. When Joseph gave this prophecy the Whig Party was in power. Within a short time that party collapsed, lost their control of government and there isn’t a potshard left of it.

There are others who feel that the Civil War and the change which came over the United States is the answer to the prophecy. Missouri refused to protect the Saints from the mobs and the United States could not intervene because the Bill of Rights did not apply on the state level (bet you didn’t know that). The fourteenth amendment gave the federal government the power to enforce the defense of the citizens if the states failed to do so. It literal changed the nature of relationships between the federal government and the states. The America before the war was not the same America which came out of the war.

Now the end of that prophecy, 17 years later Douglas did aspire to be president of the United State but he must have not believed the part of the prophecy which said “and if you ever turn your hand against me or the Latter-day Saints, you will feel the weight of the hand of the Almighty upon you”

Because in one debate he said about the Mormon problem

“… Should such a state of things actually exist as we are led to infer from the reports--and such information comes in an official shape--the knife must be applied to this pestiferous, disgusting cancer which is gnawing into the very vitals of the body politic. It must be cut out by the roots and seared over by the red hot iron of stern and unflinching law. * * * Should all efforts fail to bring them [the Mormons] to a sense of their duty, there is but one remedy left. Repeal the organic law of the territory, on the ground that they are alien enemies and outlaws, unfit citizens of one of the free and independent states of this confederacy.
"To protect them further in their treasonable, disgusting and bestial practices would be a disgrace to the country--a disgrace to humanity--a disgrace to civilization, and a disgrace to the spirit of the age. Blot it out of the organized territories of the United States..”

Douglas turned his back on the Mormons, so what happened? Well he lost by a landslide and at the age of 48 died the very next year.

Prophecy fulfilled!

 

[withwonderingawe]

"A question may be asked, ‘Will mothers have their children in eternity?' Yes! Yes! Mothers, you shall have your children," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 10). "Eternity is full of thrones, upon which dwell thousands of children reigning on thrones of glory, with not one cubit added to their stature," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 10).

I believe these are quotes from Brigham Young.

There is a belief in our theology that the body you go into the grave with is the one which will be resurrected with. Mother's who have lost their children to death will raise them to adulthood during the millennial reign. I don't know of any scripture which says yea or nay on this and I don't know why it should be an issue really.

Do you think children who die will be resurrected as full adults?

 

[withwonderingawe]

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).

Yes that is Mormon theology, the three make up the one Elohim.

 

[withwonderingawe]

"In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 5).

Gen 1
26 ¶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of Gods created he him; male and female created he them.

 

[DJItalianspur]

So I'm gathering that you think this section of the Bible doesn't apply to you?
That you can't ask God for wisdom? Why not? Do you think God is mute?

You seem against the idea that God still speaks to men. Are you?

Well my point is the context. Which is suffering.
The application for this is to ask for wisdom when suffereing.
Why has God given us his word if he reveals wisdom that contradicts his word?
Or do you think that wisdom that contradicts his word is not his word?
Why does Paul give us instructions in the bible about false teachers if all we need to do is ask for wisdom in the matter?
What about other matters? Should I blaspheme or steal or murder, should I get my guidance from the bible or should I ask pray for guidance in this matter?
I think it's clear why God gave us the bible don't you?

 

[withwonderingawe]

Well my point is the context. Which is suffering.
The application for this is to ask for wisdom when suffereing.
Why has God given us his word if he reveals wisdom that contradicts his word?
Or do you think that wisdom that contradicts his word is not his word?
Why does Paul give us instructions in the bible about false teachers if all we need to do is ask for wisdom in the matter?
What about other matters? Should I blaspheme or steal or murder, should I get my guidance from the bible or should I ask pray for guidance in this matter?
I think it's clear why God gave us the bible don't you?

From Strongs
sophia
wisdom, broad and full of intelligence; used of the knowledge of very diverse matters

1. the wisdom which belongs to men
   
   1. spec. the varied knowledge of things human and divine, acquired by acuteness and experience, and summed up in maxims and proverbs
      
      
   2. the science and learning
      
      
   3. the act of interpreting dreams and always giving the sagest advice
      
      
   4. the intelligence evinced in discovering the meaning of some mysterious number or vision
      
      
   5. skill in the management of affairs
      
      
   6. devout and proper prudence in intercourse with men not disciples of Christ, skill and discretion in imparting Christian truth
      
      
   7. the knowledge and practice of the requisites for godly and upright living
      
2. supreme intelligence, such as belongs to God
   
   1. to Christ
      
      
   2. the wisdom of God as evinced in forming and executing counsels in the formation and government of the world and the scriptures
      

 

[DJItalianspur]

I love this quote;
“"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409). Click here to see this quote in context.”

Really funny how they managed to stop that quote just at the point where Joseph is about to explain himself, but we’ll get to that in a moment.

The first time I read it I was aghast, I had never read anything like it before and of course I read it in an anti Mormon pamphlet. So I hurried down to my neighborhood library to look it up.

Let’s set this up, he had just been released once again from jail on an attempt to drag him off to Missouri, it’s that writ of habeas corpus I mentioned earlier. And yes he was a little frustrated, he gets up and starts with “the 11th Chap. II Corinthians” so let’s take a look at that.

“Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me….. I say again, Let no man think me a fool; if otherwise, yet as a fool receive me, that I may boast myself a little. That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also. For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise….”

And then Joseph says

“ My object is to let you know that I am right here on the spot where I intend to stay. I, like Paul, have been in perils, and oftener than anyone in this generation. As Paul boasted, I have suffered more than Paul did. I should be like a fish out of water, if I were out of persecutions. Perhaps my brethren think it requires all this to keep me humble. The Lord has constituted me so curiously that I glory in persecution. I am not nearly so humble as if I were not persecuted. ..”

So then Joseph was speaking as a fool, he was joking with the crowed and having a good time. He does a little more light hearted boasting and then makes the comment you quoted, out of context I might add.

So let look at the claim

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " (just 18 more words and his boasting would have made sense)

The whole claim for the existence of the LDS Church is that the early church went into apostasy.

It says of the followers of Jesus

John 6; 66 ¶From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

And Paul complained to Timothy
2 Timothy 1:15
This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me;

James lamented
From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

Peter warned
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

And speaking of Paul’s writings

“They that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.” 2Peter 3

So there were some who had left the fold and he’s trying to hold on to these he’s writing to.

And John who wrote a bit about the anti Christ which was already working in their mist wrote;

3 John
“ 9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.

10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church”

So each of these men experience members leaving the Church or no longer following them.

Now Joseph said;
“ A large majority of the whole have stood by me… the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . "

So let’s back up time wise and go back to March of 1839. Joseph, his brother Hyrum, Sidney Rigdon, Lyman Wight and Alexander McRae had been sitting in a pit called Liberty Jail since December. It was basically a hole in the ground with a building over the top. The only way in or out was through a trap door. There was no toilet except for a bucket and no light except that which came through the cracks in the walls.

In the mean time the Church members had been run out of their homes, they were living along the banks of the Mississippi river in tents and huts all the way through the winter. Women had been raped and men murdered, there was a bloody trail leaving Missouri. In this time of trial and despair Joseph wrote down a prayer and then the answer he received.

1 O God, where art thou? And where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place?

2 How long shall thy hand be stayed, and thine eye, yea thy pure eye, behold from the eternal heavens the wrongs of thy people and of thy servants, and thine ear be penetrated with their cries?

3 Yea, O Lord, how long shall they suffer these wrongs and unlawful oppressions, before thine heart shall be softened toward them, and thy bowels be moved with compassion toward them?

4 O Lord God Almighty, maker of heaven, earth, and seas, and of all things that in them are, and who controllest and subjectest the devil, and the dark and benighted dominion of Sheol—stretch forth thy hand; let thine eye pierce; let thy pavilion be taken up; let thy hiding place no longer be covered; let thine ear be inclined; let thine heart be softened, and thy bowels moved with compassion toward us.

5 Let thine anger be kindled against our enemies; and, in the fury of thine heart, with thy sword avenge us of our wrongs.

6 Remember thy suffering saints, O our God; and thy servants will rejoice in thy name forever.

The Lord answered him this way;

7 My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment;

8 And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes.

9 Thy friends do stand by thee, and they shall hail thee again with warm hearts and friendly hands.

10 Thou art not yet as Job; thy friends do not contend against thee, neither charge thee with transgression, as they did Job.

Even through all of this suffering his friends stood by him, so when he said “A large majority of the whole have stood by me..” he was revering to this prayer.

Now the part of his speach which CARM did not give you;

“….The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation. I am in the bosom of a virtuous and good people…”

Why was he able to keep the church together because they his followers were “a virtuous and good people” , he took all of that boasting and laid it at their feet.

He went on to say;

“I am innocent of all these charges, and you can bear witness of my innocence, for you know me yourselves. ….I can go to the cross—I can lay down my life; but don't forsake me. I want the friendship of my brethren.—Let us teach the things of Jesus Christ. Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a downfall.

Be meek and lowly, upright and pure; render good for evil, …. As I grow older, my heart grows tenderer for you.. . I love you for your reception of me. …I have nothing in my heart but good feelings.”

Now I hope this shows you not to trust most of the anti Mormon material that you may see out there especially from CARM.

When Joseph Smith claims that the Church stayed with him, more so than Paul, Peter and Christ (who is the head of the Church) was he joking? I am not sure I understand why anyone would say this? Perhaps you could explain another way?

Maybe one could argue that it does not matter what Joseph Smith did or said There are some that will follow and defend him no matter what.

The quotes I provided show the difference between Christians and Mormons. Christians will not accept Muhammed as a prophet - why?
Christians will not accept Joseph Smith as a prophet -why?
What do think is the difference between Muhammed and Jospeh Smith (in terms of biblical criteria)?

I doubt everything that Joseph Smith said and did was completely evil but when I point out his many wives and there ages, to come back and say there is no eveidence he had sex with them is terrible argument. It must trouble you to think that God may have used a man like this. Where was the repentance in his life?

It not like Joseph Smith even tried to hide this and he went to jail for it. Are we to ignore this?

The bible gives us strict instructions to seek a holy way of living. Jospeh Smith not only ignored this but claimed God gave him instructions to do so! Can we find any biblical prophets who did this?

Where do start when looking at Joseph Smiths life? You can say that the OT prophets had more than one wife or that some of them committed murder, but compare any of them to Joseph Smith!
You see the more we look at his life the more we have to ask the question, what does God say in the bible can we find any examples like Joseph Smith that the bible gives us as an example?

He said the Church was in apostasy, well he certainly showed those churches by his lifestyle coming out of an apostate church Can lead to a more immoral lifestyle.

The problem is that If the church was in apostasy, then You could claim the same today both in and out of the Mormonism which gives rise to self proclaimed prophets. I am sure the bible say something about this...

How do you try to convince people that Joseph was a true prophet and not a false prophet when, let's say people go on the CARM website or read authors such as David Reed, john Farkas, Ron Rhodes and many other websites. It's slightly unbalanced to say everything anti Mormon is wrong and everything pro Mormon is correct.

We ask questions because we want to test if Mormons are right or if they are wrong it's not a trick or a trap. If you tell me you are prophet I need to see biblical evidence that is credible, we need to see answers.

I believe there are answers, the answer book is the bible and not the Book of Mormon.

But well done for your research, please correct me here (I don't know for sure) but I was told that Mormons can get in trouble for going to anti mormon websites? (This isn't that important so no need to respond to this).

One more point, we believe there are some perhaps many scriptures in the bible that without reading and applying in the context they do not really make sense or can be interpreted to mean something else, is this also your understanding?

 

[DJItalianspur]

From Strongs
sophia
wisdom, broad and full of intelligence; used of the knowledge of very diverse matters

1. the wisdom which belongs to men
   1. spec. the varied knowledge of things human and divine, acquired by acuteness and experience, and summed up in maxims and proverbs
      
      
   2. the science and learning
      
      
   3. the act of interpreting dreams and always giving the sagest advice
      
      
   4. the intelligence evinced in discovering the meaning of some mysterious number or vision
      
      
   5. skill in the management of affairs
      
      
   6. devout and proper prudence in intercourse with men not disciples of Christ, skill and discretion in imparting Christian truth
      
      
   7. the knowledge and practice of the requisites for godly and upright living
2. supreme intelligence, such as belongs to God
   1. to Christ
      
      
   2. the wisdom of God as evinced in forming and executing counsels in the formation and government of the world and the scriptures

Col 2:3 in Christ... in whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Let's go back to James 1:5 and apply this now...

 

[DJItalianspur]

Verse 6 starts by a linking word, so can not be understood in isolation. What does verse 6 teach us?

That we should not apply verse 5 with doubt, this isn't about a revelation if my next door neighbor is a prophet of God but and practice help for Christians in trials.

During trials stay firm and pray for wisdon during the trial (not to be delivered from the trial). Pray for wisdom during the trial, God gives to all men freely (there are many great sermons on this)but there is a warning in verse 6.

During the trial do pray with doubts but pray with faith.

The reward for doing so is in verse 12.

Where does the lds get the application to 'reveal if a prophet 1,500 years later is of God' in this verse or chapter?

one other point, the Book of revelation shows us what is to come as does Daniel. Do they mention Joseph Smith, Muhammed or Charles Taze Russell?
Any ideas why they are not mentioned?

 

[Rescued One]

So how did god manifest this knowledge to you?

The same way He does to every believer. If you're a believer, you know the answer.

 

[fatboys]

The same way He does to every believer. If you're a believer, you know the answer.

Lol. So how did you know it was from God and not the devil?

 

[DJItalianspur]

From Strongs
sophia
wisdom, broad and full of intelligence; used of the knowledge of very diverse matters

1. the wisdom which belongs to men
   1. spec. the varied knowledge of things human and divine, acquired by acuteness and experience, and summed up in maxims and proverbs
      
      
   2. the science and learning
      
      
   3. the act of interpreting dreams and always giving the sagest advice
      
      
   4. the intelligence evinced in discovering the meaning of some mysterious number or vision
      
      
   5. skill in the management of affairs
      
      
   6. devout and proper prudence in intercourse with men not disciples of Christ, skill and discretion in imparting Christian truth
      
      
   7. the knowledge and practice of the requisites for godly and upright living
2. supreme intelligence, such as belongs to God
   1. to Christ
      
      
   2. the wisdom of God as evinced in forming and executing counsels in the formation and government of the world and the scriptures

Again this is very good that you are researching this, Strongs concordance is probably the best, and better than the one I am using at the moment concordance says:

σοφία, σοφίας, ἡ (σοφός), Hebrew חָכְמָה, wisdom, broad and full intelligence (from Homer down); used of the knowledge of very diverse matters, so that the shade of meaning in which the word is taken must be discovered from the context in every particular case.

Interesting about the context, do you think the context is important in this verse or in any verse?

 

[DJItalianspur]

Again this is very good that you are researching this, Strongs concordance is probably the best, and better than the one I am using at the moment concordance says:

σοφία, σοφίας, ἡ (σοφός), Hebrew חָכְמָה, wisdom, broad and full intelligence (from Homer down); used of the knowledge of very diverse matters, so that the shade of meaning in which the word is taken must be discovered from the context in every particular case.

Interesting about the context, do you think the context is important in this verse or in any verse?

Or if we isolate the verse which I don't think you can do and take it in it's pure meaning only I.e general or broad wisdom then this could not be applied to a specific person in a specific time such as Muhammed or Jospeh Smith right?

I will research James 1:5 futher....

 

[Rescued One]

Kolob is a sun and He lives nigh unto it, I think most believe it's somewhere near the center of our galaxy. It really is kind of a speculation pulled together from several different passages and comments of Joseph Smith. Quoting John 5

Kolob is called a star. Some LDS leaders called it a planet.

"The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth"

He says God the Father was once a man as Jesus was, so there is this speculation that God the Father was a Messiah on another planet "far far away".

The true God never had endowments or temple marriages.

ONLY THROUGH CELESTIAL MARRIAGE CAN A PERSON BECOME LIKE GOD
(1-12) The Lord Commands Marriage
“Many people imagine that there is something sinful in marriage; there is an apostate tradition to that effect. This is a false and very harmful idea. To the contrary, God not only commends but He commands marriage. While man was yet immortal, before sin had entered the world, our Heavenly Father Himself performed the first marriage. He united our first parents in the bonds of holy matrimony and commanded them to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth. This command He has never changed, abrogated or annulled; but it has continued in force throughout all the generations of mankind.” (Joseph F. Smith, Juvenile Instructor, 1 July 1902, p. 400.)
(1-13) Exaltation Is Based on Celestial Marriage
“If you want salvation in the fullest, that is exaltation in the kingdom of God, so that you may become his sons and his daughters, you have got to go into the temple of the Lord and receive these holy ordinances which belong to that house, which cannot be had elsewhere. No man shall receive the fulness of eternity, of exaltation, alone, no woman shall receive that blessing alone; but man and wife, when they receive the sealing power in the temple of the Lord, if they thereafter keep all the commandments, shall pass on to exaltation, and shall continue and become like the Lord. And that is the destiny of men; that is what the Lord desires for his children.” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2 :43-44.)
(1-14) “Then Shall They Be Gods, Because They Have No End”
“But if we are married for time and for all eternity and it is sealed upon our heads by those who have the authority so to seal, and if we then keep our covenants and are faithful to the end, we shall come forth in the resurrection from the dead and receive the following promised blessings:
“ ‘Then shall they be gods.
“So if you want to enter into exaltation and become as God, that is a son of God or a daughter of God, and receive a fulness (sic) of the kingdom, then you have got to abide in his law—not merely the law of marriage but all that pertains to the new and everlasting covenant—and then you have the ‘continuation of the lives’ forever, for the Lord says:
“ ‘This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.’ (D&C 132:24.)” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:62-63.)
(1-15) Only Resurrected and Glorified Beings May Become Parents of Spirit Offspring
Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, 1992

 

[Rescued One]

I believe these are quotes from Brigham Young.

There is a belief in our theology that the body you go into the grave with is the one which will be resurrected with. Mother's who have lost their children to death will raise them to adulthood during the millennial reign. I don't know of any scripture which says yea or nay on this and I don't know why it should be an issue really.

Do you think children who die will be resurrected as full adults?

What difference does your question make? Mormon scriptures don't address it.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Well my point is the context. Which is suffering.
The application for this is to ask for wisdom when suffereing.

So you think "non suffering" people can't ask God for wisdom???

Why has God given us his word if he reveals wisdom that contradicts his word?
Or do you think that wisdom that contradicts his word is not his word?
.

Again, there are no contradictions.

What about other matters? Should I blaspheme or steal or murder, should I get my guidance from the bible or should I ask pray for guidance in this matter?

Did you not read the Bible? It's full of murder and stealing.

I think it's clear why God gave us the bible don't you?

You keep repeating the same questions and not listening to a single answer.

DJItalianspur, do you believe God is dead or mute? If not, why does the idea of a living speaking God offend you so?

 

[Jane_Doe]

The quotes I provided show the difference between Christians and Mormons.

Which quotes? I don't see a single one.

Christians will not accept Muhammed as a prophet - why?

Why are you obsessed with Mohammad as to keep bringing him up?

Christians will not accept Joseph Smith as a prophet -why?

Some do, myself being an example.

What do think is the difference between Muhammed and Jospeh Smith (in terms of biblical criteria)?

One is a prophet of God (Joseph Smith) and one is not (Mohammad). One taught that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and one did not.

I doubt everything that Joseph Smith said and did was completely evil but when I point out his many wives and there ages, to come back and say there is no eveidence he had sex with them is terrible argument. It must trouble you to think that God may have used a man like this. Where was the repentance in his life?

It not like Joseph Smith even tried to hide this and he went to jail for it. Are we to ignore this?

The bible gives us strict instructions to seek a holy way of living. Jospeh Smith not only ignored this but claimed God gave him instructions to do so! Can we find any biblical prophets who did this?

Where do start when looking at Joseph Smiths life? You can say that the OT prophets had more than one wife or that some of them committed murder, but compare any of them to Joseph Smith!
You see the more we look at his life the more we have to ask the question, what does God say in the bible can we find any examples like Joseph Smith that the bible gives us as an example?

He said the Church was in apostasy, well he certainly showed those churches by his lifestyle coming out of an apostate church Can lead to a more immoral lifestyle.

You entire argument is base on the assumption that a man of God must somehow be without sin-- an unbibilical requirement that all of God's prophets would fail.

The problem is that If the church was in apostasy, then You could claim the same today both in and out of the Mormonism which gives rise to self proclaimed prophets. I am sure the bible say something about this...

The Bible talk about modern day prophets, and how God never changes. Do you believe God changes and is now mute? I don't. Do you disbelieve the Bible when it talks about prophets? I don't.

How do you try to convince people that Joseph was a true prophet and not a false prophet when, let's say people go on the CARM website or read authors such as David Reed, john Farkas, Ron Rhodes and many other websites.

CARM's quote eddditting to make straw men cases has already been demonstrated on this thread. The others are likewise.

And we don't convince people Joseph Smith was a prophet- God does that. To whomever would ask Him.

It's slightly unbalanced to say everything anti Mormon is wrong and everything pro Mormon is correct.

No one said that.

We ask questions because we want to test if Mormons are right or if they are wrong it's not a trick or a trap.

Do you want to listen to Mormon answers here? Or is trickery your goal? Or some other option?

If you tell me you are prophet I need to see biblical evidence that is credible, we need to see answers.

Then why do you not ask God for it? Ask Him to testify.

But well done for your research, please correct me here (I don't know for sure) but I was told that Mormons can get in trouble for going to anti mormon websites?

Incorrect.

One more point, we believe there are some perhaps many scriptures in the bible that without reading and applying in the context they do not really make sense or can be interpreted to mean something else, is this also your understanding?

This is what's known as a leading question....

 

[withwonderingawe]

When Joseph Smith claims that the Church stayed with him, more so than Paul, Peter and Christ (who is the head of the Church) was he joking? I am not sure I understand why anyone would say this? Perhaps you could explain another way?

Maybe one could argue that it does not matter what Joseph Smith did or said There are some that will follow and defend him no matter what.

The quotes I provided show the difference between Christians and Mormons. Christians will not accept Muhammed as a prophet - why?
Christians will not accept Joseph Smith as a prophet -why?
What do think is the difference between Muhammed and Jospeh Smith (in terms of biblical criteria)?

I doubt everything that Joseph Smith said and did was completely evil but when I point out his many wives and there ages, to come back and say there is no eveidence he had sex with them is terrible argument. It must trouble you to think that God may have used a man like this. Where was the repentance in his life?

It not like Joseph Smith even tried to hide this and he went to jail for it. Are we to ignore this?

The bible gives us strict instructions to seek a holy way of living. Jospeh Smith not only ignored this but claimed God gave him instructions to do so! Can we find any biblical prophets who did this?

Where do start when looking at Joseph Smiths life? You can say that the OT prophets had more than one wife or that some of them committed murder, but compare any of them to Joseph Smith!
You see the more we look at his life the more we have to ask the question, what does God say in the bible can we find any examples like Joseph Smith that the bible gives us as an example?

He said the Church was in apostasy, well he certainly showed those churches by his lifestyle coming out of an apostate church Can lead to a more immoral lifestyle.

The problem is that If the church was in apostasy, then You could claim the same today both in and out of the Mormonism which gives rise to self proclaimed prophets. I am sure the bible say something about this...

How do you try to convince people that Joseph was a true prophet and not a false prophet when, let's say people go on the CARM website or read authors such as David Reed, john Farkas, Ron Rhodes and many other websites. It's slightly unbalanced to say everything anti Mormon is wrong and everything pro Mormon is correct.

We ask questions because we want to test if Mormons are right or if they are wrong it's not a trick or a trap. If you tell me you are prophet I need to see biblical evidence that is credible, we need to see answers.

I believe there are answers, the answer book is the bible and not the Book of Mormon.

But well done for your research, please correct me here (I don't know for sure) but I was told that Mormons can get in trouble for going to anti mormon websites? (This isn't that important so no need to respond to this).

One more point, we believe there are some perhaps many scriptures in the bible that without reading and applying in the context they do not really make sense or can be interpreted to mean something else, is this also your understanding?

*When Joseph Smith claims that the Church stayed with him, more so than Paul, Peter and Christ (who is the head of the Church) was he joking? I am not sure I understand why anyone would say this? Perhaps you could explain another way?



Well we could start a whole thread on the apostasy, there are tons of references in the New Testament by way of prophecy and the different apostles watching it happen. Jesus started teaching this strange doctrine about eating his flesh and many of his disciples no longer followed him, shortly afterwards they are yelling Crucify Him, Crucify Him.

While speaking to his apostles “privately” Jesus prophesied

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

Strongs says the word ‘offended’ there means; to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey

He was telling them about the apostasy and how many of the early church members would betray them and cause their deaths. “and shall betray one another” they would then turn on each other and send each other to the lions. All of the early Jewish members were martyred and the Church lost it’s founding members who knew the true Gospel


*What do think is the difference between Muhammed and Jospeh Smith (in terms of biblical criteria)?

*1 John 4 :2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist,

Mohammad denied the deity and atonement of Christ, at least he seems so it depends on how one translates some of the Quran

Joseph Smith reaffirmed the deity and atonement of Christ over and over again.

*Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Like Christians who accept the Trinity Islam teaches God is an immaterial substance, he is without gender and they both insist there is one God.

Joseph taught that Jesus is the Son of God the Father and the Father is a he and we are made in his actual image, he has a right hand. There are three personages who are separate but one in purpose and authority.

*Matthew 18:16
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

Mohammed had no witnesses to his visions while Joseph had 11 plus many more.

*Acts 2:37 ¶Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Like Born Again Christianity In Islam one need only to declare his faith by repeating a few words and bang you are saved. Here’s the little prayer which is in a pamphlet that was left on my son’s car.

Dear Lord, I know I’m a sinner; but I am sorry for my sins. I believe that the Lord died for me and rose again and with all my heart I turn from my sin and receive Him as my Savior right now. Thank you , Lord; for saving me! Amen.

Now the Muslim prayer is this;
"La ilaha illallah, Muhammadun rasulullah " This translates to "I testify that there is no other god but Allah, and Muhammad is God's messenger (prophet)."

They do ask you to read their scriptures, talk to an Imam, have a witness and then go take a shower.

In Mormonism we ask a little more, with fruits of repentance, a confession of faith and baptism by one having authority and then the gift of the Holy Ghost is given by the laying on of hands.

*Rev 1
5 And from Jesus Christ, ….And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Like Born Again Christianity Mohammed claimed no priesthood.

Joseph claimed to have the priesthood passed down through the prophets and then given to him by Peter, James and John. Joseph healed many people using his priesthood, I don’t think there is any such claim with Mohammed.

*Mal 4: 5 ¶Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

See also 1 Peter 3 & 4 & 1 Cor 15

Like Born Again Christianity Mohammed has no concept of saving families and those that are dead.

Joseph said Elijah came to him and he taught that we can help save our ancestors by doing their baptisms by proxy.
* Eph 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine

*Islam claims that Mohammed was the last prophet, born again Christians claim there were none after the apostles died. To both God stopped talking to mankind.

Joseph claim there would be continuing revelation and set up a church that would have new prophets and apostles.


There are many difference between Joseph and Mohammed whose doctrines more closely resemble some “Christian” doctrines.

 

[Rescued One]

Yes that is Mormon theology, the three make up the one Elohim.

"In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through—Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us; and when you take [that] view of the subject, it sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfection of the Gods.” (Teachings, p. 372.)

Elder James E. Talmage explained the special significance Elohim has for Latter-day Saints:

“The name Elohim … is expressive of supreme or absolute exaltation and power. Elohim, as understood and used in the restored Church of Jesus Christ, is the name-title of God the Eternal Father, whose firstborn Son in the spirit is Jehovah—the Only Begotten in the flesh, Jesus Christ.” (Jesus the Christ, p. 38.)
Old Testament Student Manual Genesis-2 Samuel, (1980), 45