Morality vs Godliness

[k4c]

Can people be moral yet godless? Yes they can.

The last six commandments of God manifest morality in a person's life but the first four manifest godliness in a person's life. Satan and religious man have no problem with the last six because man receives the glory. The first four commandments is where all the problems come when it comes to true worship because God only receives the glory in the first four and Satan has a huge problem with that.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Can people be moral yet godless? Yes they can.

The last six commandments of God manifest morality in a person's life but the first four manifest godliness in a person's life.

If a person exhibits godliness, is that godliness conjured up from within the person himself, or does that godliness have a divine source?

Satan and religious man have no problem with the last six because man receives the glory.

The real world tells us that many, many people have problems with the last six. We have major leaders losing their positions due to sex scandals. The crime rate remains problematic. We have abuse of the elderly. We have many people trying to do better than the Joneses. And I am as guilty as the rest.

Why is that? Because the law does not change people. It merely points people to the One who changes people.

The first four commandments is where all the problems come when it comes to true worship because God only receives the glory in the first four and Satan has a huge problem with that.

If God does not receive the glory in the last six, then we are taking credit for behavior that is not ours.

BFA

 

[k4c]

If a person exhibits godliness, is that godliness conjured up from within the person himself, or does that godliness have a divine source?

The real world tells us that many, many people have problems with the last six. We have major leaders losing their positions due to sex scandals. The crime rate remains problematic. We have abuse of the elderly. We have many people trying to do better than the Joneses. And I am as guilty as the rest.

Why is that? Because the law does not change people. It merely points people to the One who changes people.

If God does not receive the glory in the last six, then we are taking credit for behavior that is not ours.

BFA

I have to give you credit, you are working hard to prove what the Bible is not saying.

When I talk about the last six vs the first four I am equating it with religious people, not the world.

Without the Law godly love would be open for interpretation and we can see what that looks like in the religious world today.

The Law is the standard and love is the motive, end of story.

 

[k4c]

If a person exhibits godliness, is that godliness conjured up from within the person himself, or does that godliness have a divine source?

BFA

It comes from a divine source.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

I have to give you credit, you are working hard to prove what the Bible is not saying.

If this is what I'm doing, why on earth would you give me credit for doing it?

When I talk about the last six vs the first four I am equating it with religious people, not the world.

When it comes to sin, there is 0 difference. Recent behavior among religious leaders make that point rather clear.

Without the Law godly love would be open for interpretation

Let's imagine that this is true. Would that scare you? If so, why? Where does faith factor in?

The Law is the standard and love is the motive, end of story.

How does the Spirit fit into this mathematical equation?

BFA

 

[k4c]

If this is what I'm doing, why on earth would you give me credit for doing it?

When it comes to sin, there is 0 difference. Recent behavior among religious leaders make that point rather clear.

Let's imagine that this is true. Would that scare you? If so, why? Where does faith factor in?

How does the Spirit fit into this mathematical equation?

BFA

There is a difference between one who sins out of ignorance and one who sins with knowledge.

2 Peter 2:21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.

How does the Spirit fit into this mathematical equation?

You see, I already answered this. This is why I say you are avoiding the truth.

I will repeat what I posted before.

Ezekiel 36:26-27 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

 

[Joe67]

Can people be moral yet godless? Yes they can.

The last six commandments of God manifest morality in a person's life but the first four manifest godliness in a person's life. Satan and religious man have no problem with the last six because man receives the glory. The first four commandments is where all the problems come when it comes to true worship because God only receives the glory in the first four and Satan has a huge problem with that.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

k4c,

The form of godliness is the mystery of iniquity. It denies the power of God.

2 Tim 3:4-5
lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. KJV

Joe

 

[k4c]

k4c,

The form of godliness is the mystery of iniquity. It denies the power of God.

2 Tim 3:4-5
lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. KJV

Joe

What defines godliness?

The Law.

Without the Law, godliness would be open to interpretation and we can see what that looks like in the religious today.

So yes, you can have a form of godliness yet deny it's power. The KJV also has the word, (meaning) for the word power. In other words, godliness is defined by it's meaning and it's meaning is defined by how God defines godliness. Neither you nor I set the standard for godliness.

He goes one to say in 2 Timothy how the Scriptures are able to make one wise for salvation.

2 Timothy 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

We know all Scriptures are inspired but when they say, it is written or when he said the Scriptures you have known from your youth are able to make you wise for salvation what Scriptures was he referring to here? The OT or the NT?

 

[StormyOne]

What defines godliness?

The Law.

Without the Law, godliness would be open to interpretation and we can see what that looks like in the religious today.

So yes, you can have a form of godliness yet deny it's power. The KJV also has the word, (meaning) for the word power. In other words, godliness is defined by it's meaning and it's meaning is defined by how God defines godliness. Neither you nor I set the standard for godliness.

He goes one to say in 2 Timothy how the Scriptures are able to make one wise for salvation.

2 Timothy 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

We know all Scriptures are inspired but when they say, it is written or when he said the Scriptures you have known from your youth are able to make you wise for salvation what Scriptures was he referring to here? The OT or the NT?

What you choose not to acknowledge is that the "law" that you have used to establish your position is interpreted by humans. You have chosen (and I am not saying its a bad thing, just that it is) in your mind what the law is and is not. Consequently the law and godliness is open to human interpretation.... "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy..." What does that mean? That is how do you define "holy" and does everyone who hears or reads that text define "Holy" the same way you do? Probably not. My point is that there are alot of built in assumptions that define your position that may not be true....

 

[k4c]

What you choose not to acknowledge is that the "law" that you have used to establish your position is interpreted by humans. You have chosen (and I am not saying its a bad thing, just that it is) in your mind what the law is and is not. Consequently the law and godliness is open to human interpretation.... "Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy..." What does that mean? That is how do you define "holy" and does everyone who hears or reads that text define "Holy" the same way you do? Probably not. My point is that there are alot of built in assumptions that define your position that may not be true....

You keep saying these are my ideas, but they are not. They are from the word of God. Oh yah, you don't believe it's the word of God so I guess we will never see eye to eye.

 

[StormyOne]

You keep saying these are my ideas, but they are not. They are from the word of God. Oh yah, you don't believe it's the word of God so I guess we will never see eye to eye.

Tsk tsk.... if you wish to state what I believe, then do so correctly.... I have said that I do not believe that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of God. Yes, they are your ideas... especially given the fact that you have gleaned from the bible what you believe the law of God is... Consequently, when I asked you to define a simple term which is found in the ten commandments which by the way is only a PART OF the law recognized by the children of Israel, you have chosen to this point not to provide a definition.... While we may not see eye to eye, dialog is possible and may aid in a better understanding of where you are coming from...

 

[k4c]

Tsk tsk.... if you wish to state what I believe, then do so correctly.... I have said that I do not believe that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of God. Yes, they are your ideas... especially given the fact that you have gleaned from the bible what you believe the law of God is... Consequently, when I asked you to define a simple term which is found in the ten commandments which by the way is only a PART OF the law recognized by the children of Israel, you have chosen to this point not to provide a definition.... While we may not see eye to eye, dialog is possible and may aid in a better understanding of where you are coming from...

Again...How can I discuss deep eternal truths of God's word with someone who says this,

StormyOne: Since God did not write the bible nor dictate it, please resist the urge to tell me that the bible is the infallible word of God.... You may believe it is, and I accept that, however that is not my belief....

http://www.christianforums.com/t7427324-4/

This will only lead to arguments and dead ends.

 

[StormyOne]

Again...How can I discuss deep eternal truths of God's word with someone who says this, http://www.christianforums.com/t7427324-4/

This will only lead to arguments and dead ends.

Unfortunately you believe that the bible is the only word of God... so based on your premise your statement is understandable..... however ask yourself this, before there was a bible, how did people interact with their Creator?

 

[k4c]

Unfortunately you believe that the bible is the only word of God... so based on your premise your statement is understandable..... however ask yourself this, before there was a bible, how did people interact with their Creator?

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in different ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets. has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Now God has spoken to us through His Son and what does Jesus say about the words He has spoken?

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

 

[StormyOne]

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at various times and in different ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets. has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Now God has spoken to us through His Son and what does Jesus say about the words He has spoken?

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

Before the prophets how did God interact with his creation? The assumption being that Jesus actually said that.... there is a significant difference between rejecting God and doubting that the bible is the "word of God." You may or may not see that difference at this stage, however I wish you well on your journey....

 

[k4c]

Before the prophets how did God interact with his creation? The assumption being that Jesus actually said that.... there is a significant difference between rejecting God and doubting that the bible is the "word of God." You may or may not see that difference at this stage, however I wish you well on your journey....

The only thing that speaks of creation and God is the Bible. But since you doubt the Bible and it's source how can you say what you say?

The stages of faith goes like this.

First you don't believe the Bible is the word of God but then God reveals to you all its life changing power and fulfilled prophecies which developes an assurance within that it is the inspired word of God. So when you speak of stage or journey you should speak of growing to believe the word of God, not doubt it. When you grow to doubt it that's called, falling away, which is not a good thing.

 

[StormyOne]

The only thing that speaks of creation and God is the Bible. But since you doubt the Bible and it's source how can you say what you say?

The stages of faith goes like this.

First you don't believe the Bible is the word of God but then God reveals to you all its life changing power and fulfilled prophecies which developes an assurance within that it is the inspired word of God. So when you speak of stage or journey you should speak of growing to believe the word of God, not doubt it. When you grow to doubt it that's called, falling away, which is not a good thing.

sorry my friend... long before the bible was written there was evidence of a creator all around us.... before "the heavens declare the glory of God" was written, someone actually saw that to be true... likewise it is clear that God interacted with humans one on one before the bible came along... In fact I am surprised that you did not quote a text or two suggesting that God talked to Adam, Cain, Abraham, or Noah....

There are no stages of faith.... faith is based on experience. As you experience your trust (faith) in something or someone grows. Do you not find it interesting that children do not need a book to tell them about their parents? How did that occur? Experience.... People grow to believe more in the Creator, not something written about the Creator.... I am more interested in a relationship with Him than in a relationship with something written about him.... you know that almost sounds like bible worship... but that's another thread....

Lastly, if the bible was so important for us to understand God, then God would have given Adam and Eve the first copy as he escorted them out of the garden.....

 

[k4c]

StormyOne; sorry my friend... long before the bible was written there was evidence of a creator all around us.... before "the heavens declare the glory of God" was written, someone actually saw that to be true... likewise it is clear that God interacted with humans one on one before the bible came along...

Evolutionist think differently on this so what gives you the right to quote the Bible as your bases for the heavens declaring the glory of a Creator when you yourself doubt the Bible?

In fact I am surprised that you did not quote a text or two suggesting that God talked to Adam, Cain, Abraham, or Noah....

I can't quote from the Bible with you because you pick a choose what you want to believe from a book you doubt.

There are no stages of faith.... faith is based on experience. As you experience your trust (faith) in something or someone grows. Do you not find it interesting that children do not need a book to tell them about their parents?

Evolutionist believe their parents are pond scum.

Some people believe we came from UFOs.

Some people believe we just appeared out of a big bang.

How did that occur? Experience.... People grow to believe more in the Creator, not something written about the Creator.... I am more interested in a relationship with Him than in a relationship with something written about him.... you know that almost sounds like bible worship... but that's another thread.

Experiences can be interpreted differently for each person, we need details to understand our experiences. For example: Acts 17:22-23 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; "for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to the unknown God. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: (Him I will proclaim to you. Behold, the Bible).

Lastly, if the bible was so important for us to understand God, then God would have given Adam and Eve the first copy as he escorted them out of the garden.....

Now where did you get the names, Adam and Eve?

 

[StormyOne]

Evolutionist think differently on this so what gives you the right to quote the Bible as your bases for the heavens declaring the glory of a Creator when you yourself doubt the Bible?



I can't quote from the Bible with you because you pick a choose what you want to believe from a book you doubt.



Evolutionist believe their parents are pond scum.

Some people believe we came from UFOs.

Some people believe we just appeared out of a big bang.



Experiences can be interpreted differently for each person, we need details to understand our experiences. For example: Acts 17:22-23 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; "for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: to the unknown God. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: (Him I will proclaim to you. Behold, the Bible).



Now where did you get the names, Adam and Eve?

Thanks for the morning chuckle, what gives me the right? This is a discussion, I can place on the table anything I wish in the course of this discussion.... just because I do not share your belief about the bible does not mean that it is not useful.....

There is also in creation room to believe that there is some evolution occurring. It's not fair to generalize what evolutionists believe because like christians there are many different kinds of beliefs within that field.... Having said that, even the concept of evolution does not diminish the belief that there is a Creator...

As for your quoting scripture, everyone picks and chooses what they wish to share, even you... However I do not feel the need to quote scripture to support what I believe, whereas you do... The practice is fine in this setting, other settings not so much....

Lastly, Adam and Eve, of course you know those names were really not their names, but translated into english as such....

 

[k4c]

Thanks for the morning chuckle, what gives me the right? This is a discussion, I can place on the table anything I wish in the course of this discussion.... just because I do not share your belief about the bible does not mean that it is not useful.....

There is also in creation room to believe that there is some evolution occurring. It's not fair to generalize what evolutionists believe because like christians there are many different kinds of beliefs within that field.... Having said that, even the concept of evolution does not diminish the belief that there is a Creator...

As for your quoting scripture, everyone picks and chooses what they wish to share, even you... However I do not feel the need to quote scripture to support what I believe, whereas you do... The practice is fine in this setting, other settings not so much....

Lastly, Adam and Eve, of course you know those names were really not their names, but translated into english as such....

Round and round she goes...where she stops, nobody knows.

Originally Posted by StormyOne

Tsk tsk.... if you wish to state what I believe, then do so correctly.... I have said that I do not believe that the bible is the infallible, inerrant word of God. Yes, they are your ideas... especially given the fact that you have gleaned from the bible what you believe the law of God is... Consequently, when I asked you to define a simple term which is found in the ten commandments which by the way is only a PART OF the law recognized by the children of Israel, you have chosen to this point not to provide a definition.... While we may not see eye to eye, dialog is possible and may aid in a better understanding of where you are coming from...
​

Again...How can I discuss deep eternal truths of God's word with someone who says this,

StormyOne: Since God did not write the bible nor dictate it, please resist the urge to tell me that the bible is the infallible word of God.... You may believe it is, and I accept that, however that is not my belief....

http://www.christianforums.com/t7427324-4/

This will only lead to arguments and dead ends.