Morality in the Bible

Jan 8, 2011
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I'd suggest reading Rob Bell's "Velvet Elvis" book. He explains the Adam and Eve thing very well for me.

Hah! I loved Velvet Elvis! I was reccomended that, alongside a book by an Australian author, Michael Frost. "Exiles: Living Missionally in a Post-Christian Culture." I was hooked just by the title.

But I really got a lot out of it. Michael Frost is a great thinker, yet still down to earth. I'm 10 posts shy of posting links (har-har-har), but you can find it easily enough if you want to.

I'm not on commission, FYI...

1. That makes sense, and I admit that I have no scriptural passage that indicates generational punishment, so I can accept that it may not be the case with Adam and Eve.

2. As for the stoning, I agree that it is a hard thing to conceptualize and rationalize in one's mind. I would love to hear your opinions about it when your thoughts are collected and in order.

Are you asking about the morality of execution, or the specific method of stoning? I'm not splitting hairs; I think depending on the angle, you'll get two differing answers.
 
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2. Is stoning a person to death moral?

OK... in this day and age, no. Society has moved on somewhat.

But the OT, particularly the first half, was written for a vastly different world, which we would find very unfamiliar. We're reading the OT as post-modern 21st century westerners (the majority of us, anyway), yet its context was ancient civilisation, pre-Greco-Roman Middle Easterners. That's the first grain of salt to bear in mind.

Stoning was a method of public execution, before firing squad, lethal injection, guillotine, and even, by and large, the concept of beheading by executioner. People were stoned, rather than strangled or stabbed, so that the death was an official, "sanctioned" death, not to be confused with a murder, and removing the possibility of revenge attacks by the deceased's family.

It was also often for crimes which broke the laws of the community, and the particular method of stoning meant it was the collective community at large which carried out the punishment. Thus, not only was the perpetrator punished, but the survivors were also warned / reminded, much how a hanged criminal was placed in a gibbet at the crossroads in medieval times (the historical period, not the family restaurant).

So, to a degree, the question of morality in regards to stoning is more a question regarding capital punishment. Stoning was widely regarded as socially acceptable in its location and day. But even as early as Jesus' time on earth, stoning had ceased to be applicable in the eyes of God. Humanity had become more civilised and enlightened, and Jesus was starting to really push the grace and mercy envelope, overturning the "eye for an eye" principle. Obviously, the government of Iran missed the memo...

Now, I know you'll probably have a question or challenge to this, but that's great! If you can refine and hone the argument, I can do the same with my response.

Hope your day/evening is treating you well! (Currently 7:10pm in NSW as I write this...)
 
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drich0150

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Looks like we've got one of the countless contradictions of the bible here:

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.
DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

You do realize that what was being said in Isa is different the command that was given in deu right? The Law given in deu was a law given to the Jew in how they were to govern themselves With Other Jews.

What was said in Isa was the continuation of a prophesy against Babylon that was started in chapter 13, and is not a law or command given on how to interact with other Jews.

Context, will break 95% of the "contradictions" found on websites that seemingly point them out.
 
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drich0150

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1. Is it moral to punish a person for his/her ancestor's sins?
Who is doing the punishing, and how?

2. Is stoning a person to death moral?
For an Old testament Jew under the right circumstances, Yes. For you no.

What I'm basically asking for is whether or not god's actions are moral and why or why not.
Yes, and Because He has the authority.

For instance what makes you think of "punishment" for sin is immoral? why do you think your judgment is any more or less valuable than that of God?
 
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I still find a lot of things within the bible that seem utterly immoral to me. I just don't understand how a "loving" and "just" god could say and do the things that are recorded in the bible. I find it rather off-putting to say the least.

Play, that's totally understandable.

The origins and destiny of humanity, the purpose behind our existence, and the very meaning of life, are questions, or causes, which have eluded our best and brightest from the beginning. From Plato, to Aristotle, to Descartes, to Nietzsche, to Shaw, to Chesterton, to Dawkins, greater minds than yours or mine have grappled with it, and argued with one another over it - and although they have put up many hypotheses, none has provided an answer which seems definitively conclusive. If any one of them was, those who disagreed would be a collection of small minorities, rather than the broad divisions we see in the world both historically and today.

If the Judeo-Christian God is real, we must remember that although our minds are modelled on His, His is as vastly superior - and even alien - as Deep Blue would be to a Commodore 64. We will often be confused by His motives, because, as Bono said, she moves in mysterious ways.

Personally speaking, I've been reading to bible, studying the bible, reading books about the bible, and reading books by other people who believe in the bible, for my whole life. There are still parts of it which I struggle to reconcile. But for the most part, after all these years, my understanding of a loving God who is invested in the good of humanity is more complete, rather than more fragmented.

I am, literally, more than happy to discuss the pros and cons of philosophies, pro- and anti-biblical, secular and Christian, with any polite and open person. But I have next to no tolerance for close-minded fools who spit "clever" quips from foam-flecked mouths.

Sorry, Play, I seem to have written more than I originally intended. In a nutshell, though, if you have specifics to talk about, that would be great. I'm not trying to change your worldview - let's be honest, it's next to impossible to do that to any adult - but maybe if you have one or two misconceptions, I might be able to turn them into conceptions.

Or, you may be right after all, and you can help free me from my mistaken delusion. We can but try, right?
 
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CryptoLutheran

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Okay hedrick, thank you for the quote correction. Why then are we guilty? By what fault are we guilty of the punishment of Adam and Eve?

Original Sin, properly understood in the Western Theological tradition is not our being punished for Adam's sin, but our inheriting the human nature of Adam which is intrinsically broken and fallen. We have inherited Adam's "fallenness".

The Augustinian doctrine was expounded directly in contrast to the things Pelagius was saying. While Pelagius did not explicitly deny the necessity of grace, Augustine argued it was the inevitable consequence of Pelagius' doctrine. Pelagius argued that that it was, in theory, possible for a person to live a holy and godly life through effort and abstain from sin (not that Pelagius said anyone had actually done this, only that it was theoretically possible). Thus Pelagianism, in Augustine's mind--and ever after in the minds of Western theologians--claimed that human beings could under their own strength achieve righteousness and holiness, thereby rendering the reconciliation needed in Jesus, uniting us to God and His grace, unnecessary. For Augustine, it wasn't simply a matter of personal sin, but an issue of our very human nature, that there was something intrinsic about the nature of man due to the Fall that separates us from God and turns us inward toward ourselves and our own selfish desires--what later Western theologians such as Thomas Aquinas call concupiscence. This innate problem in the essential fabric of our humanity requires external grace from God, and union with Jesus by His atoning (reconciliatory) work through dying and rising thereby reuniting us with God and bringing us into the sanctifying and transformative work of God.

Now, it is very possible that Pelagius has been misunderstood (particularly in the West, since in the East the Augustinian-Pelagian controversy was regarded as minor or insignificant). Particularly, Pelagius' chief concern was Christian moral behavior, as a Christian monk from Britain visiting Rome he was deeply depressed by the moral laxity of Christians there, and believed that the emphasis should be placed on seeking to live a moral life that is pleasing to God; in that capacity he took umbrage with Augustine's theology in which he accused Augustine of being under the influence of Manichaean determinism and that Augustine's doctrine didn't place enough emphasis on human effort to live righteously, thereby implicitly encouraging moral laxity in the Christian life.

However, the point is that Original Sin does not mean our being guilty for Adam eating a fruit from a tree, but about our intrinsic disconnection from life with and in God by a natural and essential compulsion toward satisfying ourselves (again, concupiscence); and that it is not merely personal sin that we need salvation from, but rather a fundamental overhaul of our very human nature--and thereby necessitating external grace that comes from God, and union to God and the life of God by being reconciled in Jesus.

Now, as you may have noticed I've several times emphasized this as a Western theology. That's important, because as I noted the Augustinian-Pelagian debate was fundamentally only a Western issue, and it was never something that important in the East. Augustinian theology was never influential in the East, whereas Augustinian theology--coupled with Thomist and Scholastic theology--forms much of the basis of Western theology (though, in Protestantism, influenced/reformed/modified by the theological teachings of Luther, Calvin, Wesley, et al; as well as their theological descendants).

In the East, rather, they call it Ancestral Sin, that is, Adam's sin was the first sin and by consequence the world itself now endures under the yoke of sin and death; it has created an environment where sinning is inevitable. It's less about our human nature having been tarnished by the Fall and more about the world having been brought under the yoke of the devil and sin; and the necessity of being ransomed, liberated from that yoke by the atoning work of Jesus--this also helps explain (though, perhaps only in part) why East and West hold to different views on the Atonement, namely that in the West it is viewed through a moral or judicial lens, whereas in the East it is viewed more through a medical lens.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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play_smom

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@Hamish: I am very interested to have sincere discussions with you. I like to discuss pretty much everything, so if you or anyone else has something to bring up, by all means, go for it. Clearly, I haven't experienced the bible and Christianity as positively as you have, but I try not to be against it for no reason. I try to view it objectively despite my nonbelief in its truth. It's difficult, but I do try and I will attempt to discuss as objectively I can without unfounded assumptions.

Also, I agree that minds are difficult to change espeically after a person has left childhood. I have not quite come out of that stage myself actually. Not legally anyway. I'm 17 and my current point of view is a rather recent change.

@CryptoLutheran: I didn't know of that distinction between East and West. That's interesting and I guess my original assumptions were more similar to the Eastern View than the Western. Either way, though, I don't think much of the idea that we are all inherently "fallen" or whatever. I see no reason to believe so.
 
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Either way, though, I don't think much of the idea that we are all inherently "fallen" or whatever. I see no reason to believe so.

The concept original sin, or alternatively, fallen humanity, is a secondary belief. That is, it only becomes relevant if another, 'primary' belief, is accepted first.

In this case, sin could be defined as an act of rebellion against God. Or, the breaking of a rule of His. Obviously, you need to have a belief in God, and a belief that He actually has rules, before the concept of fallen humanity makes any sense at all.

So on that basis, I totally understand how you see no reason to believe in fallen humanity. It would, in truth, be rather peculiar if you did.

From an evolutionary perspective, there is no such thing as morality or ethics transcending those of a cultural creation, and thus, 'sin' is irrelevant. But aside from your own belief in the concept, can you understand how those who do believe in a sentient, interactive deity do believe in a form of inherent sinfulness?

(PS - Hope you've been well in the past six months!)
 
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