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Moralism failed me, so where is my righteousness?

Gary K

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In Colossians I believe Paul is not warning that much about initial salvation. He is warning about going ON, growing, being rooted and grounded firmly in Christ. As they had initially received Christ they were to continue without distraction to WALK in Him.

As therefore you have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in Him,
Having been rooted and being built up in Him, and being established in the faith even as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
Beware that no one carries you off as spoil . . . (Col. 2:6,7, 8a)

It is the same with the audience of Galatians. They began in the Spirit. He was fighting to have them continue to be perfected
not in the law keeping flesh but in the bountiful supply of the Spirit.

This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith?
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Have you suffered so many things in vain, if indeed it was in vain?

He therefore who bountifully supplies to you the Spirit and does works of power among you, does He do it out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith? (Gal.2:2-5)

That persistent flavor from you and Soyeng of "Remember the law now. It all has to do with obeying the law" that concerns me.

Where is the thread where you and Soyeng talk more about Grace then the Law ?

Where is the thread where I see "Christ . . .Christ . . . Christ" mentioned more than "LAW . . . LAW . . . LAW"?

I think there is more than myself here that has this concern for the return again and again to remind
everyone that Jesus helps us keep the law. It is the regular emphasis that strikes me and the pushback you guys

offer on any New Testament passage highlighting the tensions between the old covenant way and the new covenant way.

Ie. "Oh, those conflicts are about the Talmud not the Law given at Mt. Sinai" doesn't do much for this concern I have.

I do wish to be fair to you.
I agree with everything you just said, The only thing I disagree with is the context that Paul is speaking against keeping the the 4th commandment

You beleive in righteousness by faith just like I do Our only difference is the Sabbath. I just don't understand you classifying me as a Judaizer as you know better.
 
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oikonomia

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No. Seeking to earn salvation through keeping the law is legalism. Keeping the law through faith in Jesus is not. They are two completely separate things. The second is done through and by faith in God. The first attempted through human power alone.
The Apostle Paul in his gospel preaching wanted to reach all kinds of people.
He tried to meet them on their level in order to attract them to Jesus.

FIrst Corinthians 9:19-21 - For though I am free from all, I have enslaved myself to all that I might gain the more.
And to the Jews I became as a Jew in order that I might gain Jews; to those under law, as under law (though I myself am not under law), that I might gain those under law. To those without law, as without law (though I am not without law to God but within law to Christ), that I might gain those without law.


Do you see he did not say he approached all people as one being under law?
I think you argue like he SHOULD have so lived.
 
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oikonomia

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I agree with everything you just said, The only thing I disagree with is the context that Paul is speaking against keeping the the 4th commandment

You beleive in righteousness by faith just like I do Our only difference is the Sabbath. I just don't understand you classifying me as a Judaizer as you know better.
I long for the day when I have to confess "Oh, these posters are just teaching GRACE, GRACE, GRACE and MORE GRACE."

Are you so called Seventh Day Adventist?
Are you of a Messianic congregation zealous to demonstrate that keeping the Saturday Sabbath is intrinsic to the new covenant ??
 
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oikonomia

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I agree with everything you just said, The only thing I disagree with is the context that Paul is speaking against keeping the the 4th commandment
Remember what I said about saying AMEN to everything written in the Bible.
This is the way of greatest blessing. Just take it.

I take it when he says the law of holy, righteous, spiritual, good, etc. I say AMEN to that.
You beleive in righteousness by faith just like I do Our only difference is the Sabbath. I just don't understand you classifying me as a Judaizer as you know better.
You did read through Romans 14 and 15 about believers being liberal, accomodating, and general with each other?
One holds one day to be special. Another holds all days the same. Each of us live to the Lord persuaded that we are His.
 
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Gary K

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Remember what I said about saying AMEN to everything written in the Bible.
This is the way of greatest blessing. Just take it.

I take it when he says the law of holy, righteous, spiritual, good, etc. I say AMEN to that.

You did read through Romans 14 and 15 about believers being liberal, accomodating, and general with each other?
One holds one day to be special. Another holds all days the same. Each of us live to the Lord persuaded that we are His.
You're once again reading things into scripture that aren't there.

MISHNA: Messengers were sent out 1 for the following six months: for Nissan, on account of
the Passover; for Abh, on account of the fast; for Elul, on account of the New Year; for Tishri,
on account of appointing the order of the (remaining) festivals; 2 for Kislev, on account of the
Feast of Dedication; for Adar, on account of the Feast of Passover; also for Iyar, when the
Temple was in existence, on account of the minor (or second) Passover. 3
GEMARA: Why were they not, also sent out for Tamuz and Tebheth (in which months there are
also fasts)? Did not R. Hana bar Bizna say in the name of R. Sin-peon the pious: What is the
meaning of the passage [Zach. viii. 19]: "Thus saith the Lord of hosts; the fast of the fourth, and
the fast of the fifth, and the fast of the seventh, and the fast of the tenth shall become in the
house of Judah joy and gladness," etc., that they are called fasts, and also days of joy and
gladness? Are we not to understand that only in the time of peace (cessation of persecution) they
shall be for joy and gladness, but in the time when there was not peace they shall be fasts? Said
p. 33
[paragraph continues] R. Papa: It means this: When there was peace, these days should be for joy and
gladness; in the time of persecution they shall be fasts; in times when there are neither
persecution nor peace people may fast or not, as they see fit. If that is so, why then (should
messengers have been sent out) on account of the fast of Abh? Said R. Papa: The fast (ninth
day) of Abh is different, since many misfortunes occurred on that day, as the master said: "On
the ninth of Abh, the first and second Temples were destroyed, Bether was captured, and the city
of Jerusalem was razed to the ground."
We have learned in a Boraitha: R. Simeon said: There are four matters that R. Aqiba expounded,
but which I interpret differently; "the fast of the fourth" means the ninth of Tamuz, on which the
city was broken in, as it is written [Jer. Iii. 6, 7]: "In the fourth, in the ninth day of the month . . .
the city was broken in." What does he mean by fourth? The fourth of the months. "The fast of
the fifth," means the ninth of Abh, on which the Temple of our Lord was burnt; and what does
he mean by calling it fifth? The fifth of the months. "The fast of the seventh" means the third of
Tishri, the day on which Gedaliah, the son of Ahikam, was slain (and we fast), because the death
of the righteous is equal to the loss of the house of our Lord. And what does he mean by calling
it the seventh? The seventh of the months. "The fast of the tenth," means the tenth of Tebheth,
the day on which the king of Babylon set himself against Jerusalem, as it is written [Ezek. xxiv.
1, 2]: "Again in the ninth year, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month the word of the
Lord came unto me saying, Son of man, write thee the name of the day, even of this same day;
the king of Babylon set himself against Jerusalem." And what does he mean by calling it the
tenth? The tenth of the months, and actually this last event should have been placed first (since it
occurred first). And why is it placed here last in order? To mention the months in their regular
order. Said R. Simeon: I, however, do not think so, but thus: "The fast of the tenth" means the
fifth of Tebheth, on which day the news came to the exiles that the city was smitten, as it is
written [Ezek. xxxiii. 21]: "And it came to pass in the twelfth year of our captivity, in the tenth
(month), in the fifth day of the month, that one that bad escaped out of Jerusalem came to me,
saying, The city is smitten," and they held the day on which they received the news equal to the
day (on which the Temple) was burnt. And it seems to me that my opinion is more satisfactory, for I speak of the first, first, and of the last, last; while he speaks of the last, first, and of the first, last; he mentions
them in the order of the months, while I mention them in the order in which the calamities
occurred.

The question about the feast of Tammuz was a feast for a heathen god. And you wonder why Paul is saying don't let anyone judge you on feast days, Sabbath days, etc...? The Sabbath was called a high Sabbath when a feast day occurred on a Sabbath so a pagan feast could be held on a Sabbath day and it would have been considered a high Sabbath.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I asked, "Is it safe to assume, then, that we are all under obligation to obey the law?" You said:
Yes. But that is not a problem as sin is not more powerful than God. It's only a problem for those who assume sin i more powerful than God.
I thanked you for your direct answer and explanation and said we only agreed on forgiveness. Upon further reflection, I should have been more direct on the concerns your answer raises.

My concern stems from your view that we are under obligation to obey the law. This is in spite of the fact that the NT says we are not under law but under grace, and it doesn't heed the Bible's warnings of being under a curse if we place ourselves under the law. Also, the only verse in the NT that says we are under obligation to obey the law is in Galatians 5:3, where it says if you pick up one law to keep it, you become obligated to obey all laws.

If my concerns are valid, I know from my own experience that the consequences are enormous. I also know that it can take a long time to undo. The path for me that finally ended it whas when I decided to stay on my knees at the feet of Jesus, receiving His forgiveness on an ongoing basis, instead of rising up again to obey the law after repeated failures.

I hope you are not going through this, but I hope you escape if you are.
 
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Gary K

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I asked, "Is it safe to assume, then, that we are all under obligation to obey the law?" You said:

I thanked you for your direct answer and explanation and said we only agreed on forgiveness. Upon further reflection, I should have been more direct on the concerns your answer raises.

My concern stems from your view that we are under obligation to obey the law. This is in spite of the fact that the NT says we are not under law but under grace, and it doesn't heed the Bible's warnings of being under a curse if we place ourselves under the law. Also, the only verse in the NT that says we are under obligation to obey the law is in Galatians 5:3, where it says if you pick up one law to keep it, you become obligated to obey all laws.

If my concerns are valid, I know from my own experience that the consequences are enormous. I also know that it can take a long time to undo. The path for me that finally ended it whas when I decided to stay on my knees at the feet of Jesus, receiving His forgiveness on an ongoing basis, instead of rising up again to obey the law after repeated failures.

I hope you are not going through this, but I hope you escape if you are.
So, you think sin is more powerful than God? Why would you believe such a thing? The evidence of alcoholics stopping drinking and drug addicts stopping using drugs ought to tell any Christian that God is much more powerful than sin. Why do I say these are sinful behaviors? Because both behaviors are self destructive and sin itself is self destructive so that makes them parallel behaviors and thus one and the same problem.

I have also failed many times in my walk with God. In fact I did so for decades. But my heart has been changed so that even deeply ingrained habits are being overcome by the power of God. I ask for the presence of the HS in my heart every morning and ask that He take control of my life. my heart and my mind. The results are incredible. I've only put this into practice for 3 months or so and I have received more victories over sin my life than I had in all the rest of my life. In fact during those decades of my life all I experienced was failure except when I first became a Christian and then I was staying in close communion with God too. Unfortuanately I drifted away from that and ever afterwards experienced nothing but failure. So I know God can and wiil give us the victory over the sin in our life.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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So, you think sin is more powerful than God? Why would you believe such a thing? The evidence of alcoholics stopping drinking and drug addicts stopping using drugs ought to tell any Christian that God is much more powerful than sin. Why do I say these are sinful behaviors? Because both behaviors are self destructive and sin itself is self destructive so that makes them parallel behaviors and thus one and the same problem.

I have also failed many times in my walk with God. In fact I did so for decades. But my heart has been changed so that even deeply ingrained habits are being overcome by the power of God. I ask for the presence of the HS in my heart every morning and ask that He take control of my life. my heart and my mind. The results are incredible. I've only put this into practice for 3 months or so and I have received more victories over sin my life than I had in all the rest of my life. In fact during those decades of my life all I experienced was failure except when I first became a Christian and then I was staying in close communion with God too. Unfortuanately I drifted away from that and ever afterwards experienced nothing but failure. So I know God can and wiil give us the victory over the sin in our life.
No, you missed my point altogether. I do think there may be a blind spot there that prevents you from seeing it.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Just what point did I miss?
My concern stems from your view that we are under obligation to obey the law. This is in spite of the fact that the NT says we are not under law but under grace, and it doesn't heed the Bible's warnings of being under a curse if we place ourselves under the law. Also, the only verse in the NT that says we are under obligation to obey the law is in Galatians 5:3, where it says if you pick up one law to keep it, you become obligated to obey all laws.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I ask for the presence of the HS in my heart every morning
I guess you are asking that the Holy Spirit make His presence known to you each day? Because I presume you know that He has taken up permanent residence in our hearts.
 
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oikonomia

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You're once again reading things into scripture that aren't there.



The question about the feast of Tammuz was a feast for a heathen god. And you wonder why Paul is saying don't let anyone judge you on feast days, Sabbath days, etc...? The Sabbath was called a high Sabbath when a feast day occurred on a Sabbath so a pagan feast could be held on a Sabbath day and it would have been considered a high Sabbath.
I don't think you are reading the Scriptures enough.
I honestly think it appears to be more likely that you are combing through histories to justify pre-conceived
notions dear to you.

The law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ.

John does not say some pagan feast was given. He says "the LAW was given".

This replacement of what was given by God with the grace that comes with Jesus, you will not be able to alter.
You may wish to read Tammuz, Pagan Feasts, Talmud rules, and other things to SAVE your affection for Law keeping.
 
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Gary K

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I guess you are asking that the Holy Spirit make His presence known to you each day? Because I presume you know that He has taken up permanent residence in our hearts.
God is very respectful of us. If we don't ask Him daily He will push Himself on us. It'd like Paul said:

Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

If Paul had to die daily, which is what I do by surrendering myself to God daily, I will stick with his example.
 
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Gary K

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I don't think you are reading the Scriptures enough.
I honestly think it appears to be more likely that you are combing through histories to justify pre-conceived
notions dear to you.

The law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ.

John does not say some pagan feast was given. He says "the LAW was given".

This replacement of what was given by God with the grace that comes with Jesus, you will not be able to alter.
You may wish to read Tammuz, Pagan Feasts, Talmud rules, and other things to SAVE your affection for Law keeping.

So by pointing out how legalistic the Talmud is I'm showing my love for legalism? That's a very odd conclusion.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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I said, "I presume you know that He has taken up permanent residence in our hearts."

You replied:
God is very respectful of us. If we don't ask Him daily He will push Himself on us.
I assume you meant to say He will not push Himself on us. This is another puzzling response that brings up possibly bad explanations.
 
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Gary K

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I said, "I presume you know that He has taken up permanent residence in our hearts."

You replied:

I assume you meant to say He will not push Himself on us. This is another puzzling response that brings up possibly bad explanations.
Yeah, that's what I meant. So Paul saying he died daily brings up bad connotations in your mind?
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Yeah, that's what I meant. So Paul saying he died daily brings up bad connotations in your mind?
No, the possibility that you don't know the Holy Spirit is in you all day every day brings up bad connotations. You may know it and don't want to admit it, that's fine. If you don't know it, that brings up one troubling possibility.
 
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Gary K

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No, the possibility that you don't know the Holy Spirit is in you all day every day brings up bad connotations. You may know it and don't want to admit it, that's fine. If you don't know it, that brings up one troubling possibility.
Oh. So it's just me doing the same thing as Paul that brings up bad connotations in your mind. I once again find that very strange. I'm doing the same thing but with the opposite motivation?
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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Oh. So it's just me doing the same thing as Paul that brings up bad connotations in your mind. I once again find that very strange. I'm doing the same thing but with the opposite motivation?
Whatever he meant, he didn't mean he was asking the Holy Spirit to come into his heart every day. He understood that the presence of Jesus in our hearts is what makes the difference between being alive spiritually and being carnal (Romans 8) and that the Spirit is the collateral which secures our eternal inheritance (Ephesians 1).
 
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