Moralism failed me, so where is my righteousness?

[oikonomia]

You're reading scripture through the lens of today,

What is wrong with reading the New Testament through the lens of TODAY ?
While it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the provocation.” (Heb. 3:5)

For the purpose of responding to His salvation now, I should not read the Gospel through the lens of
the time of John the Baptist. While not despising the former things, I SHOULD read the Scripture through today's lens.

Remember when Yahweh told Israel this?

Do not call to mind the former things, Nor consider the things of old.
Indeed, I am doing a new thing; It will now spring forth;
Do you not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness,
Rivers in the desert. (Isaiah 43:18,19)

not from the context of the Jewish culture of Christ's and Paul's day. That's exactly why I read thing's like the the Talmud so I can view things from a culture that is nothing like our modern world.

God's way of God has to be taken at the time God says "THIS is the way to be saved righteously."
For example. If there is a fire in a house and God says "Go out the front door to be saved righteously."
But we go out of the window or the back door or the basement door, that is not His righteous way.

We cannot use "context" of His word and not obey His way to be saved righteously.
He certainly wants us to read the New Testament salvation obediently through the lens of new covenant times.
And here I mean "salvation" in its full sense - the salvation of the spirit and soul and body.

I do not just mean initial Justification by Faith for receiving forgiveness.

I read a lot of old out of copyright books so I can see things from different perspectives. I've read a lot of philosophy and history books from the days of ancient Rome to the 17th and 18th century. I've been curious about most things since I was a little kid. At one time I had more than 4500 ebooks until hackers bricked my laptop.

I am impressed at such a verocious appetite for knowledge.
This is also risky. You all the more need to ask the Lord for guidance.
That is so that in all your reading the Holy Spirit may impress you with what He really wants you to receive.

With the Bible, you have to read always with a willingness to have God CHANGE you.
The Holy Spirit is in the business of transforming us.
When we come to the Lord Jesus in His word, sometimes we have to ask "Well, what did I LOSE?"

We gain much no doubt. But hold on. We also lose something of the old way of thinking.
He leads us into transformation by the renewing of our minds.

This is why I urged you to not fight against verses with other verses.
Learn to Amen the word of God.

This does not hurt reading in context this or that portion.
It is faithful to the overall "context" that one comes to Jesus when searching the Scriptures.

I fear to search the Scriptures and pickup things but not be infused by Christ's Spirit.
Remember His telling the Pharisees about thier reading of Scriptures.

You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life;
and it is these that testify concerning Me.
Yet you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. (John 5:38,39)

 

[Gary K]

What is wrong with reading the New Testament through the lens of TODAY ?
While it is said, “Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the provocation.” (Heb. 3:5)

For the purpose of responding to His salvation now, I should not read the Gospel through the lens of
the time of John the Baptist. While not despising the former things, I SHOULD read the Scripture through today's lens.

Remember when Yahweh told Israel this?

Do not call to mind the former things, Nor consider the things of old.
Indeed, I am doing a new thing; It will now spring forth;
Do you not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness,
Rivers in the desert. (Isaiah 43:18,19)


God's way of God has to be taken at the time God says "THIS is the way to be saved righteously."
For example. If there is a fire in a house and God says "Go out the front door to be saved righteously."
But we go out of the window or the back door or the basement door, that is not His righteous way.

We cannot use "context" of His word and not obey His way to be saved righteously.
He certainly wants us to read the New Testament salvation obediently through the lens of new covenant times.
And here I mean "salvation" in its full sense - the salvation of the spirit and soul and body.

I do not just mean initial Justification by Faith for receiving forgiveness.

I am impressed at such a verocious appetite for knowledge.
This is also risky. You all the more need to ask the Lord for guidance.
That is so that in all your reading the Holy Spirit may impress you with what He really wants you to receive.

With the Bible, you have to read always with a willingness to have God CHANGE you.
The Holy Spirit is in the business of transforming us.
When we come to the Lord Jesus in His word, sometimes we have to ask "Well, what did I LOSE?"

We gain much no doubt. But hold on. We also lose something of the old way of thinking.
He leads us into transformation by the renewing of our minds.

This is why I urged you to not fight against verses with other verses.
Learn to Amen the word of God.

This does not hurt reading in context this or that portion.
It is faithful to the overall "context" that one comes to Jesus when searching the Scriptures.

I fear to search the Scriptures and pickup things but not be infused by Christ's Spirit.
Remember His telling the Pharisees about thier reading of Scriptures.

You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life;
and it is these that testify concerning Me.
Yet you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. (John 5:38,39)

I explained what the issue is. The scripture you quoted has nothing to do with the issue at hand. It's just saying now is the time to respond to the call of the HS. Today if ye will hear His voice....

When we fail to understand why people say the things they do we misunderstand why they expressed themselves the way they did. Have you ever read the James Fenimore Cooper novels about the white man called the Deerslayer? If so you will fail to understand the culture of Cooper's day and thus what our country used to be like. The same goes for the writings of Alexis de Toqueville. He was one of the greatest political analysts of all time. He came to the US in the early 1800s and spent months traveling around getting to know the people by spending time with them in what at their time was the cultural center of their day, the local tavern. People would go there and spend hours every day discussing the political happenings then going on. They also pored over the newspapers every day for political news. He was astounded at how politically savvy Americans were as the people of Europe were nothing like them. He was French by the way.

Our government power structure is upside down now compared to what it was then. The vast majority of the power resided at the township level, i. e, the local level. There was less power at the county level. Even less at the state level and even less at the federal level. Now it is just backwards and we have lost the vast majority of our liberty as power is now used against us rather than each community understanding and taking care of their own specific needs. It's no longer government of the people,by the people, and for the people as politicians and bureaucrats thousands of miles away make the vast majority of the rules.

When we fail to understand history we don't understand where we've come from and even worse where we're going. It's the same way in the spiritual world.

 

[oikonomia]

I explained what the issue is. The scripture you quoted has nothing to do with the issue at hand. It's just saying now is the time to respond to the call of the HS. Today if ye will hear His voice....

It goes to the issue of hearing His word to us as long as it is called today. Hearing the word through the lens of the present relevant time.

When we fail to understand why people say the things they do we misunderstand why they expressed themselves the way they did. Have you ever read the James Fenimore Cooper novels about the white man called the Deerslayer?

No. My older brother was well read. And as kids he always told me all about great classic books which he read ferociously.
In junior high I read some of a satire by Mark Twain making fun of James Fenimore Cooper's hero on those books. That is the way
he changed the way he spoke was ridiculed as unrealistic - both folksy and educated sounding depending on the situation.

You sound a bit like my older sibling who devoured lots of books I don't know if people even read anymore - Cooper, Dickens, Melville, Mary Roberts Reinhart, Burrouhgs, Talbot Munday, Jules Verne, etc. etc. etc. books that I see now as Cooper notes for college kids. He always told me about all of these stories.

My passion at the time was classical music instead.
I did like reading H.G. Wells & Ray Bradbury.
I speak of childhood days. We are both over 70 now.

If so you will fail to understand the culture of Cooper's day and thus what our country used to be like. The same goes for the writings of Alexis de Toqueville. He was one of the greatest political analysts of all time. He came to the US in the early 1800s and spent months traveling around getting to know the people by spending time with them in what at their time was the cultural center of their day, the local tavern. People would go there and spend hours every day discussing the political happenings then going on. They also pored over the newspapers every day for political news. He was astounded at how politically savvy Americans were as the people of Europe were nothing like them. He was French by the way.

This is very interesting. And we may miss many things because those times are not current times.
For example john 1;1 - "In the beginning was the Logos . . . " communicates with us today. We may not know exactly
how that sounded to those surrounding by Greek philsophy in the first century.

The Holy Spirit is here today to lead us into all the truth. We are not at the mercy of "context of the culture then" completely.

Our government power structure is upside down now compared to what it was then. The vast majority of the power resided at the township level, i. e, the local level. There was less power at the county level. Even less at the state level and even less at the federal level. Now it is just backwards and we have lost the vast majority of our liberty as power is now used against us rather than each community understanding and taking care of their own specific needs. It's no longer government of the people,by the people, and for the people as politicians and bureaucrats thousands of miles away make the vast majority of the rules.

When we fail to understand history we don't understand where we've come from and even worse where we're going. It's the same way in the spiritual world.

This sounds familiar as if I read this before on this Forum somewhere.
We are not with the Bible totally in the dark because the culture of that time is passed.
Some things do not change.

We are helped by the Holy Spirit to understand Galatians, Colossians, Philippians, and Ephesians. These are what I have been taught
are the heart of the New Testament. We read the four gospels and obedience of faith leads to deeper insight.
If we are opened in heart and willing for God to change us we gain great insight into Matthew through John and the book of Acts.
Faith and obedience result in God granting us more light.

And we also can stand upon the shoulders of those who have gone before, who had experience and wisdom in following the Lord.
This is fellowship. This is benefitting from the lives of faith from previous Christians down through the centuries.

Jude 3 - Beloved, while using all diligence to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you and exhort you to earnestly contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints.

 

[Gary K]

It goes to the issue of hearing His word to us as long as it is called today. Hearing the word through the lens of the present relevant time.

No. My older brother was well read. And as kids he always told me all about great classic books which he read ferociously.
In junior high I read some of a satire by Mark Twain making fun of James Fenimore Cooper's hero on those books. That is the way
he changed the way he spoke was ridiculed as unrealistic - both folksy and educated sounding depending on the situation.

You sound a bit like my older sibling who devoured lots of books I don't know if people even read anymore - Cooper, Dickens, Melville, Mary Roberts Reinhart, Burrouhgs, Talbot Munday, Jules Verne, etc. etc. etc. books that I see now as Cooper notes for college kids. He always told me about all of these stories.

My passion at the time was classical music instead.
I did like reading H.G. Wells & Ray Bradbury.
I speak of childhood days. We are both over 70 now.

This is very interesting. And we may miss many things because those times are not current times.
For example john 1;1 - "In the beginning was the Logos . . . " communicates with us today. We may not know exactly
how that sounded to those surrounding by Greek philsophy in the first century.

The Holy Spirit is here today to lead us into all the truth. We are not at the mercy of "context of the culture then" completely.

This sounds familiar as if I read this before on this Forum somewhere.
We are not with the Bible totally in the dark because the culture of that time is passed.
Some things do not change.

We are helped by the Holy Spirit to understand Galatians, Colossians, Philippians, and Ephesians. These are what I have been taught
are the heart of the New Testament. We read the four gospels and obedience of faith leads to deeper insight.
If we are opened in heart and willing for God to change us we gain great insight into Matthew through John and the book of Acts.
Faith and obedience result in God granting us more light.

And we also can stand upon the shoulders of those who have gone before, who had experience and wisdom in following the Lord.
This is fellowship. This is benefitting from the lives of faith from previous Christians down through the centuries.

Jude 3 - Beloved, while using all diligence to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you and exhort you to earnestly contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints.

Well, I tried. You completely missed the point of the Cooper novels. I wasn't pointing out that I thought his portrayal of the Deerslayer's time was necessarily accurate. I was pointing our that the popular novels of Cooper's day spoke readily and frequently of God unlike our current crop of novelists. That points to massive cultural change.

Have you ever read Henry Hart Millman's 3 volume tome titled The History of the Jews? It's Jewish history from the time of Abraham onward written from a secular viewpoint as Millman was not a Christian. It's accurate historically but not spiritually. It points out though how the Jews went insane as a people after the death of Christ. In the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans more than 1 million Jews died, and a large percentage of them needlessly. While Jerusalem was being besieged the different power structures inside Jerusalem. which were mostly outlaws and bandits, were busy killing each other. These bands had plenty of food but would kill each other to take food away from their rivals and during those battles would sometimes set fire to the warehouses filled with food. They destroyed much of the food stores that way. And sometimes the battles were so fierce blood would be running down the streets. It was mass insanity.

Titus said after the Romans had entered the city that it had to be a miracle that they had conquered Jerusalem when inspecting the battlements and fortifications from the inside. He and his officers tried to stop the destruction of the temple but his soldiers were so maddened by the insanity of the defenders they wouldn't/couldn't listen to their own officers as during the battle for the temple blood was running down the steps into the temple knee deep. And the Roman army was known for their discipline. It just goes to show what happens when a people reject God and He withdraws His spirit.

At Megiddo the Jewish defenders committed mass suicide when they realized they couldn't repel any more attacks. As they had their entire families with them they killed their families too. They left only one person alive to tell the Romans why they had done it: the mother of one of their leaders

Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Sometimes the only way to understand events is to know history. The HS can't help a person understand what they do not know or even have any interest in knowing.

 

[oikonomia]

Well, I tried. You completely missed the point of the Cooper novels. I wasn't pointing out that I thought his portrayal of the Deerslayer's time was necessarily accurate. I was pointing our that the popular novels of Cooper's day spoke readily and frequently of God unlike our current crop of novelists. That points to massive cultural change.

Have you ever read Henry Hart Millman's 3 volume tome titled The History of the Jews?

I hope do you do not imagine that I know nothing about Jewish history, though that three volume work I have not read.

So you trust that I do not understand Galatians because I have not read as many books as you on Jewish history?
Paul said Christ died to rescue the Galatians believer from "the present evil age."

In that day the present evil age was an age of exalting the Torah, that which was delivered to Moses from God, above the Son of God and in opposition to the new covenant ministry.

Who gave Himself for our sins that He might rescue us out of the present evil age according to the will of our God and Father, (Gal. 1:4)

I also wonder if you are trying to gradually move the discussion off of the word of God and more into another ball park - about books on Jewish history. You might be more at home in a history discussion thread here from this point.

 

[oikonomia]

Well, I tried.

You may continue to do so.
But grace and reality came through Jesus Christ in contrast to the indaquacy of the law given through Moses.

The HS can't help a person understand what they do not know or even have any interest in knowing.

Without His mercy this is certainly true.

Paul became so frustrated with the Judaizers that he wished they would cut themselves off for troubling
the churches he raised up to live by grace.

The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen. (Gal. 6:18)

I wish that those upsetting you would even cut themselves off. (Gal. 5:12)

 

[Gary K]

I hope do you do not imagine that I know nothing about Jewish history, though that three volume work I have not read.

So you trust that I do not understand Galatians because I have not read as many books as you on Jewish history?
Paul said Christ died to rescue the Galatians believer from "the present evil age."

In that day the present evil age was an age of exalting the Torah, that which was delivered to Moses from God, above the Son of God and in opposition to the new covenant ministry.

Who gave Himself for our sins that He might rescue us out of the present evil age according to the will of our God and Father, (Gal. 1:4)

I also wonder if you are trying to gradually move the discussion off of the word of God and more into another ball park - about books on Jewish history. You might be more at home in a history discussion thread here from this point.

Why would I do that? I love scripture. I'm just tying to open your mind to other possibilities of looking at scripture. But you seem to have no interest in learning about other points of view. Oh well. I tried presenting evidence for other points of view but you're satisfied with what you think you know and don't want to expand your mind/thinking. I don't understand that mindset but I'm fairly rare with the amount of curiosity I have.

 

[oikonomia]

Why would I do that? I love scripture. I'm just tying to open your mind to other possibilities of looking at scripture. But you seem to have no interest in learning about other points of view. Oh well. I tried presenting evidence for other points of view but you're satisfied with what you think you know and don't want to expand your mind/thinking. I don't understand that mindset but I'm fairly rare with the amount of curiosity I have.

This is not a matter of me not wanting to be expanded.

Paul did not want the Colossians to be "open minded" to the point of being distracted by man's philosophy or religion.
He would not have them lose the prize that they enjoyed.

He wrote of the mystery hidden from past generations but now made known to the New Covenant apostles and prophets.

Beware that no one carries you off as spoil through his philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ;
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily,
And you have been made full in Him, who is the Head of all rule and authority. (Col. 2:8-10)

 

[Gary K]

This is not a matter of me not wanting to be expanded.

Paul did not want the Colossians to be "open minded" to the point of being distracted by man's philosophy or religion.
He would not have them lose the prize that they enjoyed.

He wrote of the mystery hidden from past generations but now made known to the New Covenant apostles and prophets.

Beware that no one carries you off as spoil through his philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ;
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily,
And you have been made full in Him, who is the Head of all rule and authority. (Col. 2:8-10)

Where have I ever said salvation is possible by anything other than by faith in Jesus as your implied accusation is that I'm no different than the Judaizers of Paul's day? You know I don't believe that yet you accuse me of it anyway.

 

[B Griffin]

You're reading scripture through the lens of today, not from the context of the Jewish culture of Christ's and Paul's day. That's exactly why I read thing's like the the Talmud so I can view things from a culture that is nothing like our modern world.

I read a lot of old out of copyright books so I can see things from different perspectives. I've read a lot of philosophy and history books from the days of ancient Rome to the 17th and 18th century. I've been curious about most things since I was a little kid. At one time I had more than 4500 ebooks until hackers bricked my laptop.

You should look into getting Logos Bible Software. I has a vast set of resources that are all available for serching, etc. And since the library is housed online, it can't be destroyed when you suffer PC problems.

 

[B Griffin]

Where have I ever said salvation is possible by anything other than by faith in Jesus as your implied accusation is that I'm no different than the Judaizers of Paul's day? You know I don't believe that yet you accuse me of it anyway.

I didn't see where you ever addressed the main point that oikonomia made below. It was also the main point of a post of mine that you never addressed. Can you at least say you agree with it or not? If I missed it, I apologize.

If you try to make case that all problems of opposition to Gospel were due to the Talmud legalism, and extra biblical traditions
of Jews, it will not be a convincing care. You may legitimately point to legalism of the Talmud. You will not be able
to stretch that generalization over all legalism.

The point of course, is that the Bible says seeking to please God through obedience to the law is the problem with legalism, not the traditions.

 

[Gary K]

You should look into getting Logos Bible Software. I has a vast set of resources that are all available for serching, etc. And since the library is housed online, it can't be destroyed when you suffer PC problems.

I took a look at it and downloaded it. Unfortunately it won't allow me to log in. It keeps telling me there is no such account so unfortunately I can't use it.

 

[Gary K]

I didn't see where you ever addressed the main point that oikonomia made below. It was also the main point of a post of mine that you never addressed. Can you at least say you agree with it or not? If I missed it, I apologize.


The point of course, is that the Bible says seeking to please God through obedience to the law is the problem with legalism, not the traditions.

I posted a very small part of one of the laws governing behavior on Sabbath to oikonomia. It was two or three pages long.

 

[B Griffin]

I took a look at it and downloaded it. Unfortunately it won't allow me to log in. It keeps telling me there is no such account so unfortunately I can't use it.

Did you create an account? There is a lightweight free version that you should be able to use. You can contact support and they can help you.

 

[B Griffin]

I posted a very small part of one of the laws governing behavior on Sabbath to oikonomia. It was two or three pages long.

That doesn't directly answer the question. Do you agree that the Bible says seeking to please God through obedience to the law is the problem with legalism, not the traditions?

 

[Gary K]

That doesn't directly answer the question. Do you agree that the Bible says seeking to please God through obedience to the law is the problem with legalism, not the traditions?

No. Seeking to earn salvation through keeping the law is legalism. Keeping the law through faith in Jesus is not. They are two completely separate things. The second is done through and by faith in God. The first attempted through human power alone.

 

[B Griffin]

No. Seeking to earn salvation through keeping the law is legalism. Keeping the law through faith in Jesus is not. They are two completely separate things. The second is done through and by faith in God. The first attempted through human power alone.

Thank you for the direct answer and the explanation. Is it safe to assume, then, that we are all under obligation to obey the law?

 

[Gary K]

Thank you for the direct answer and the explanation. Is it safe to assume, then, that we are all under obligation to obey the law?

Yes. But that is not a problem as sin is not more powerful than God. It's only a problem for those who assume sin i more powerful than God.

 

[B Griffin]

Yes. But that is not a problem as sin is not more powerful than God. It's only a problem for those who assume sin i more powerful than God.

Thank you for the direct answer again, and the explanation. The only thing we agree on, then is that God forgives our sins.

 

[oikonomia]

Where have I ever said salvation is possible by anything other than by faith in Jesus as your implied accusation is that I'm no different than the Judaizers of Paul's day? You know I don't believe that yet you accuse me of it anyway.

In Colossians I believe Paul is not warning that much about initial salvation. He is warning about going ON, growing, being rooted and grounded firmly in Christ. As they had initially received Christ they were to continue without distraction to WALK in Him.

As therefore you have received the Christ, Jesus the Lord, walk in Him,
Having been rooted and being built up in Him, and being established in the faith even as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. Beware that no one carries you off as spoil . . . etc. (Col. 2:6,7, 8a)

It is the same with the audience of Galatians. They began in the Spirit. He was fighting to have them continue to be perfected
not in the law keeping flesh but in the bountiful supply of the Spirit.

This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith?
Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Have you suffered so many things in vain, if indeed it was in vain?
He therefore who bountifully supplies to you the Spirit and does works of power among you, does He do it out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith? (Gal.2:2-5)

That persistent flavor from you and Soyeng of "Remember the law now. It all has to do with obeying the law" that concerns me.

Where is the thread where you and Soyeng talk more about Grace then the Law ?
Where is the thread where I see "Christ . . .Christ . . . Christ" mentioned more than "LAW . . . LAW . . . LAW"?

I think there is more than myself here that has this concern for the return again and again to remind
everyone that Jesus helps us keep the law. It is the regular emphasis that strikes me and the pushback you guys
offer on any New Testament passage highlighting the tensions between the old covenant way and the new covenant way.

Ie. "Oh, those conflicts are about the Talmud , not the Law given at Mt. Sinai" doesn't do much for this concern I have.

I do wish to be fair to you.