Moralism failed me, so where is my righteousness?

[Mercy Shown]

As a practicing Christian all of my life, I was schooled in moralism by operant conditioning. My bad deeds garnered negative responses and my good deeds were rewarded. I must admit, to a certain extent that is true with most families regardless of their religious affiliation or lack thereof. My view and understanding of God was forged by the carrot and stick and as a result I never felt I was good enough. Moralism did make me aware of how weak and helpless I really was but it offered no solution and no means to attain salvation.

I was taught that faith was a thing developed by exercise and this concept was very puzzling to me since I couldn't quite put it into an action plan. This resulted often in my prayers being followed by intense claims of belief and often ultimate disappointment in the results -- I would write this off to my own lack of faith rather than believing that something was broken in that great vending machine in the sky.

When I came upon This forum it struck me that the title, “The Sabbath and The Law” appeared a little strange in that the Sabbath is part of the law rather than something separate from it so that any discussion regarding the Sabbath was also a discussion of of law keeping. And it always been drilled into me that if you break one of The Commandments you break them all. After all, when Moses came down from the mountain the people were breaking the whole law that's why he threw the tablets to the ground even though the people were only specifically trampling the first commandment.

My story is too long to print here but in short I am filled with joy and happiness because God has revealed that my righteousness is not found in keeping the law or in any form of behavior. In fact, my righteousness is not even in my possession for it sits at this very moment at the right hand of God: it is Jesus Christ!

As the Apostle Paul explained, "But it is from Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God [revealing His plan of salvation], and righteousness [making us acceptable to God], and sanctification [making us holy and setting us apart for God], and redemption [providing our ransom from the penalty for sin]" (1 Cor 1:30) When I was trying to earn my salvation or at the least earn Christ's Grace I was acting as my own savior and showing God away from the ultimate Throne of my heart. I was, in fact, Eve plucking the fruit from the tree in the center of the garden.

Does this mean that I am now free to be as sinful as I want to be? If this question is asked of me I always wonder how sinful the inquisitor wishes to be because the truth is that the behavior prescribed by the law, which includes the all Commandments is a lagging indicator of our Salvation found in Christ Jesus. It is the fruit of Salvation and not the root of salvation. When we abide in Jesus Christ we will bear much fruit but we cannot bear much fruit in order to abide in Jesus Christ. Praise God from whom all blessings flow!

 

[Soyeong]

As a practicing Christian all of my life, I was schooled in moralism by operant conditioning. My bad deeds garnered negative responses and my good deeds were rewarded. I must admit, to a certain extent that is true with most families regardless of their religious affiliation or lack thereof. My view and understanding of God was forged by the carrot and stick and as a result I never felt I was good enough. Moralism did make me aware of how weak and helpless I really was but it offered no solution and no means to attain salvation.

Hello,

The Hebrew word "yada" refers to relational knowledge gained through experience, such as in Genesis 4:1, where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him how to walk in His way that he might know (yada) Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know (yada) God and Jesus, which is eternal life (John 17:3), not to provide a means of earning our salvation through being good enough.

I was taught that faith was a thing developed by exercise and this concept was very puzzling to me since I couldn't quite put it into an action plan. This resulted often in my prayers being followed by intense claims of belief and often ultimate disappointment in the results -- I would write this off to my own lack of faith rather than believing that something was broken in that great vending machine in the sky.

Proverbs 3:5-7 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. 7 Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord, and turn away from evil.

Our desires cloud our judgement so that by ourselves we can't be sure if something is truly good or if we just think that it is good because we desire it, so we have a choice of whether we are going to learn on our own understand of right and wrong or whether we are going to trust with all of our heart in God to correctly divide between right and wrong through what He has instructed. "Faith" is synonymous with "trust", so this is the way to have faith with God.

In Jeremiah 9:24, those who know (yada) God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in practicing these and other aspects of God's nature in obedience to what He has instructed is the way to have the experience of knowing God, and the way to experience knowing Jesus because he is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). Likewise, the way to have faith in God is by trusting in His nature to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying what He has instructed.

When I came upon This forum it struck me that the title, “The Sabbath and The Law” appeared a little strange in that the Sabbath is part of the law rather than something separate from it so that any discussion regarding the Sabbath was also a discussion of of law keeping. And it always been drilled into me that if you break one of The Commandments you break them all. After all, when Moses came down from the mountain the people were breaking the whole law that's why he threw the tablets to the ground even though the people were only specifically trampling the first commandment.

Indeed, the Sabbath is part of God's law, through the reason why the forum has that title is because much of the discussion of keeping the law is focused on keeping the Sabbath. In regard to James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had sinned by showing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late, and he was not trying to discourage them from keeping the law, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and keep it more consistently. He was essentially saying that breaking any law causes us to become a lawbreaker, so we should not pick and choose which laws we should follow, not saying that if we break one law, then we become guilty of breaking all of the other laws.

My story is too long to print here but in short I am filled with joy and happiness because God has revealed that my righteousness is not found in keeping the law or in any form of behavior. In fact, my righteousness is not even in my possession for it sits at this very moment at the right hand of God: it is Jesus Christ!

To describe someone as having a character trait is to describe them as being someone who chooses to take actions that express that trait while there is no such thing as someone having a character trait apart from being someone who chooses to take actions that express it. For example, to describe someone as courageous is to describe them as being someone who chooses to take actions that express courage while there is no such thing as someone being courageous apart from being someone who chooses to take actions that express courage. Likewise, to describe God as righteous is to say that He chooses to take actions that express righteousness while there is no such thing as someone being righteous apart from being someone who chooses to take actions that express righteousness, so while we do not earn our righteousness as the result of having obeyed God's law, the gift of becoming righteous by grace through faith is the gift of becoming someone who does what is righteous in obedience to it by grace through faith.

In Romans 3:27-31, we are declared righteous by faith apart from works of the law insofar as there are no works that we can do to earn our righteousness, however, our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous is also the faith by which we take actions that express righteousness. While Paul denied that we can earn our righteousness as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), he also said that only doers of the law will be declared righteous (Romans 2:13), so there much be reasons why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith.

As the Apostle Paul explained, "But it is from Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God [revealing His plan of salvation], and righteousness [making us acceptable to God], and sanctification [making us holy and setting us apart for God], and redemption [providing our ransom from the penalty for sin]" (1 Cor 1:30) When I was trying to earn my salvation or at the least earn Christ's Grace I was acting as my own savior and showing God away from the ultimate Throne of my heart. I was, in fact, Eve plucking the fruit from the tree in the center of the garden.

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the one and only way to become righteous by grace through faith, so again our obedience to God's law has never been about trying to earn our salvation or earn Christ's grace.

God commanded not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and by Eve doing so she was disobeying what God had commanded, so it doesn't make any sense to consider you obeying what God has commanded to be like you eating from the tree.

Does this mean that I am now free to be as sinful as I want to be? If this question is asked of me I always wonder how sinful the inquisitor wishes to be because the truth is that the behavior prescribed by the law, which includes the all Commandments is a lagging indicator of our Salvation found in Christ Jesus. It is the fruit of Salvation and not the root of salvation. When we abide in Jesus Christ we will bear much fruit but we cannot bear much fruit in order to abide in Jesus Christ. Praise God from whom all blessings flow!

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so doing those works is neither the root nor the fruit of salvation, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Hello,

The Hebrew word "yada" refers to relational knowledge gained through experience, such as in Genesis 4:1, where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him how to walk in His way that he might know (yada) Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know (yada) God and Jesus, which is eternal life (John 17:3), not to provide a means of earning our salvation through being good enough.

I always wondered what Seinfeld was saying. Anyway, I could not learn a thing from the bible until I surrendered myself to God. He filled my heart with understanding that I did not posses. A good man can only bring good form the good treasury of his heart but an evil man can only produce evil from the treasures of his heart. I could never achieve knowing God by walking in his way since I did not know it and was blind poor and naked. By now God though I am able to walk in his way. It was in knowing him that I received sight, hearing and power in order to walk in his way. How wonderful it is. (Not to say that I am completely there yet but I am on my way. And counted perfect before God.)

Proverbs 3:5-7 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. 7 Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord, and turn away from evil.

Our desires cloud our judgement so that by ourselves we can't be sure if something is truly good or if we just think that it is good because we desire it, so we have a choice of whether we are going to learn on our own understand of right and wrong or whether we are going to trust with all of our heart in God to correctly divide between right and wrong through what He has instructed. "Faith" is synonymous with "trust", so this is the way to have faith with God.

I thought I had faith when I had none. God had to lead me in a way I knew not. It wasn't a pleasant experience but He brought me through the desert safely.

In Jeremiah 9:24, those who know (yada) God know that He delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in practicing these and other aspects of God's nature in obedience to what He has instructed is the way to have the experience of knowing God, and the way to experience knowing Jesus because he is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3). Likewise, the way to have faith in God is by trusting in His nature to correctly divide between right and wrong through obeying what He has instructed.


Indeed, the Sabbath is part of God's law, through the reason why the forum has that title is because much of the discussion of keeping the law is focused on keeping the Sabbath. In regard to James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had sinned by showing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late, and he was not trying to discourage them from keeping the law, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and keep it more consistently. He was essentially saying that breaking any law causes us to become a lawbreaker, so we should not pick and choose which laws we should follow, not saying that if we break one law, then we become guilty of breaking all of the other laws.


To describe someone as having a character trait is to describe them as being someone who chooses to take actions that express that trait while there is no such thing as someone having a character trait apart from being someone who chooses to take actions that express it. For example, to describe someone as courageous is to describe them as being someone who chooses to take actions that express courage while there is no such thing as someone being courageous apart from being someone who chooses to take actions that express courage. Likewise, to describe God as righteous is to say that He chooses to take actions that express righteousness while there is no such thing as someone being righteous apart from being someone who chooses to take actions that express righteousness, so while we do not earn our righteousness as the result of having obeyed God's law, the gift of becoming righteous by grace through faith is the gift of becoming someone who does what is righteous in obedience to it by grace through faith.

In my experience, "choosing to be righteous" was impossible when I did not know what righteousness was. Sure, I knew the rules, but I did not know righteousness. I see it all the time, even in the forums where fellow Christians often cross swords over insignificant doctrinal disputes. When I see myself at the foot of the cross all the self-righteous starch drains from me.

In Romans 3:27-31, we are declared righteous by faith apart from works of the law insofar as there are no works that we can do to earn our righteousness, however, our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it insofar as the faith by which we are declared righteous is also the faith by which we take actions that express righteousness. While Paul denied that we can earn our righteousness as a wage (Romans 4:1-5), he also said that only doers of the law will be declared righteous (Romans 2:13), so there much be reasons why our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith.

If I am declared righteous apart from the works of the law. Then why do "I need to keep them?" This seems to be a contradiction, help me out here.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

As a practicing Christian all of my life, I was schooled in moralism by operant conditioning. My bad deeds garnered negative responses and my good deeds were rewarded. I must admit, to a certain extent that is true with most families regardless of their religious affiliation or lack thereof. My view and understanding of God was forged by the carrot and stick and as a result I never felt I was good enough. Moralism did make me aware of how weak and helpless I really was but it offered no solution and no means to attain salvation.

I was taught that faith was a thing developed by exercise and this concept was very puzzling to me since I couldn't quite put it into an action plan. This resulted often in my prayers being followed by intense claims of belief and often ultimate disappointment in the results -- I would write this off to my own lack of faith rather than believing that something was broken in that great vending machine in the sky.

When I came upon This forum it struck me that the title, “The Sabbath and The Law” appeared a little strange in that the Sabbath is part of the law rather than something separate from it so that any discussion regarding the Sabbath was also a discussion of of law keeping. And it always been drilled into me that if you break one of The Commandments you break them all. After all, when Moses came down from the mountain the people were breaking the whole law that's why he threw the tablets to the ground even though the people were only specifically trampling the first commandment.

My story is too long to print here but in short I am filled with joy and happiness because God has revealed that my righteousness is not found in keeping the law or in any form of behavior. In fact, my righteousness is not even in my possession for it sits at this very moment at the right hand of God: it is Jesus Christ!

As the Apostle Paul explained, "But it is from Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God [revealing His plan of salvation], and righteousness [making us acceptable to God], and sanctification [making us holy and setting us apart for God], and redemption [providing our ransom from the penalty for sin]" (1 Cor 1:30) When I was trying to earn my salvation or at the least earn Christ's Grace I was acting as my own savior and showing God away from the ultimate Throne of my heart. I was, in fact, Eve plucking the fruit from the tree in the center of the garden.

Does this mean that I am now free to be as sinful as I want to be? If this question is asked of me I always wonder how sinful the inquisitor wishes to be because the truth is that the behavior prescribed by the law, which includes the all Commandments is a lagging indicator of our Salvation found in Christ Jesus. It is the fruit of Salvation and not the root of salvation. When we abide in Jesus Christ we will bear much fruit but we cannot bear much fruit in order to abide in Jesus Christ. Praise God from whom all blessings flow!

Remember His Holy Spirit who dwells in each believer. He is our helper.
Blessings.
“For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, ‘Abba! Father!’ The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.”

 

[Gary K]

As a practicing Christian all of my life, I was schooled in moralism by operant conditioning. My bad deeds garnered negative responses and my good deeds were rewarded. I must admit, to a certain extent that is true with most families regardless of their religious affiliation or lack thereof. My view and understanding of God was forged by the carrot and stick and as a result I never felt I was good enough. Moralism did make me aware of how weak and helpless I really was but it offered no solution and no means to attain salvation.

I was taught that faith was a thing developed by exercise and this concept was very puzzling to me since I couldn't quite put it into an action plan. This resulted often in my prayers being followed by intense claims of belief and often ultimate disappointment in the results -- I would write this off to my own lack of faith rather than believing that something was broken in that great vending machine in the sky.

When I came upon This forum it struck me that the title, “The Sabbath and The Law” appeared a little strange in that the Sabbath is part of the law rather than something separate from it so that any discussion regarding the Sabbath was also a discussion of of law keeping. And it always been drilled into me that if you break one of The Commandments you break them all. After all, when Moses came down from the mountain the people were breaking the whole law that's why he threw the tablets to the ground even though the people were only specifically trampling the first commandment.

My story is too long to print here but in short I am filled with joy and happiness because God has revealed that my righteousness is not found in keeping the law or in any form of behavior. In fact, my righteousness is not even in my possession for it sits at this very moment at the right hand of God: it is Jesus Christ!

As the Apostle Paul explained, "But it is from Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God [revealing His plan of salvation], and righteousness [making us acceptable to God], and sanctification [making us holy and setting us apart for God], and redemption [providing our ransom from the penalty for sin]" (1 Cor 1:30) When I was trying to earn my salvation or at the least earn Christ's Grace I was acting as my own savior and showing God away from the ultimate Throne of my heart. I was, in fact, Eve plucking the fruit from the tree in the center of the garden.

Does this mean that I am now free to be as sinful as I want to be? If this question is asked of me I always wonder how sinful the inquisitor wishes to be because the truth is that the behavior prescribed by the law, which includes the all Commandments is a lagging indicator of our Salvation found in Christ Jesus. It is the fruit of Salvation and not the root of salvation. When we abide in Jesus Christ we will bear much fruit but we cannot bear much fruit in order to abide in Jesus Christ. Praise God from whom all blessings flow!

The only righteousness any of us have is found in Jesus. He is our all-in-one stop for righteousness.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

The way we are to live righteous lives is the same way we become justified. i.e. forgiven: by faith.

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Jesus said to ask and it will be given unto us.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Once you have done that you just need to do the same thing every day of your to build your relationship with Him, and keep on doing that for the rest of your life. That is all there is to becoming a Christian and remaining one for the rest of your life. He takes care of all the changes that need to be made in your life. The devil will do all he can to distract you from keeping on building your relationship with Jesus but has no power to separate you from Jesus . As long as you retain your faith in Him even when you know you've failed Him is just ask forgiveness and go on building your relationship with Hm.

Just remember without Him you can do nothing.

 

[oikonomia]

Hello,

The Hebrew word "yada" refers to relational knowledge gained through experience, such as in Genesis 4:1, where Adam knew (yada) Eve, she conceived, and gave birth to Cain. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him how to walk in His way that he might know (yada) Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know (yada) God and Jesus, which is eternal life (John 17:3), not to provide a means of earning our salvation through being good enough.

Isn't your take on "the goal of the law" somewhat different from Paul's revelation?
He says the law's goal was to help the sinner to know sin.
While I agree it leads to Grace which is Christ living in man, it is to expose the hopelessness of the sin nature.

We've talked about this before. And I thought it was constructive.
I do get the impression you wish the Apostle Paul would have been your student before he wrote his letters.

 

[Soyeong]

Isn't your take on "the goal of the law" somewhat different from Paul's revelation?
He says the law's goal was to help the sinner to know sin.
While I agree it leads to Grace which is Christ living in man, it is to expose the hopelessness of the sin nature.

No, in Romans 10:2-4, knowing Jesus is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. God's law divides between what is in accordance with and what is contrary to God's nature, so delighting in acting in accordance with God's nature in obedience to God's law is the way to know Him while acting contrary to God's nature in disobedience to it is the way to know sin. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is how God is gracious to us. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So we have a choice. Likewise, in Matthew 19:17, and Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that obedience to God's commandments is the way to enter eternal life.

We've talked about this before. And I thought it was constructive.
I do get the impression you wish the Apostle Paul would have been your student before he wrote his letters.

If I could meet with anyone in the Bible, then Paul would be pretty high on the list, but no, I do not wish that he had been my student before he wrote his letters. Growing up, I was taught to interpret Paul as having a negative view towards God's law. However, the Psalms express an extremely positive view of God's law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so all those who consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view towards God's law will also have the same view towards obeying it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22). For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the law of the Lord and who mediate on it day and night, so we can't believe in the truth of these words while not allowing them to shape our view of God's law. Paul and other other NT authors considered the Psalms to be Scripture, so I simply choose to interpret their writings as though they were in complete agreement with the view of God's law expressed in the Psalms, which I don't think is a stretch, and I've found that the Bible makes much more sense when I interpret it in this manner.

 

[Gary K]

Is this really the place to argue theology? The OP said she had been a Christian for years but had not felt right with God through moralism, i.e. theology. I would suggest leaving her thread to that subject as her well being ought to be our number one priority.

 

[DamianWarS]

As a practicing Christian all of my life, I was schooled in moralism by operant conditioning. My bad deeds garnered negative responses and my good deeds were rewarded. I must admit, to a certain extent that is true with most families regardless of their religious affiliation or lack thereof. My view and understanding of God was forged by the carrot and stick and as a result I never felt I was good enough. Moralism did make me aware of how weak and helpless I really was but it offered no solution and no means to attain salvation.

I was taught that faith was a thing developed by exercise and this concept was very puzzling to me since I couldn't quite put it into an action plan. This resulted often in my prayers being followed by intense claims of belief and often ultimate disappointment in the results -- I would write this off to my own lack of faith rather than believing that something was broken in that great vending machine in the sky.

When I came upon This forum it struck me that the title, “The Sabbath and The Law” appeared a little strange in that the Sabbath is part of the law rather than something separate from it so that any discussion regarding the Sabbath was also a discussion of of law keeping. And it always been drilled into me that if you break one of The Commandments you break them all. After all, when Moses came down from the mountain the people were breaking the whole law that's why he threw the tablets to the ground even though the people were only specifically trampling the first commandment.

My story is too long to print here but in short I am filled with joy and happiness because God has revealed that my righteousness is not found in keeping the law or in any form of behavior. In fact, my righteousness is not even in my possession for it sits at this very moment at the right hand of God: it is Jesus Christ!

As the Apostle Paul explained, "But it is from Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God [revealing His plan of salvation], and righteousness [making us acceptable to God], and sanctification [making us holy and setting us apart for God], and redemption [providing our ransom from the penalty for sin]" (1 Cor 1:30) When I was trying to earn my salvation or at the least earn Christ's Grace I was acting as my own savior and showing God away from the ultimate Throne of my heart. I was, in fact, Eve plucking the fruit from the tree in the center of the garden.

Does this mean that I am now free to be as sinful as I want to be? If this question is asked of me I always wonder how sinful the inquisitor wishes to be because the truth is that the behavior prescribed by the law, which includes the all Commandments is a lagging indicator of our Salvation found in Christ Jesus. It is the fruit of Salvation and not the root of salvation. When we abide in Jesus Christ we will bear much fruit but we cannot bear much fruit in order to abide in Jesus Christ. Praise God from whom all blessings flow!

You will find this code of freedom right in the law. The 4th commandment is as much about resting from work as it is about not causing others to work as well from the forienger in your care to your whole household including slaves and animals.

Look at the Sabbath as not God resting on the 7th day (because God doesn't need rest) but instead God ceasing his works (cease is another meaning of Sabbath). Why did he cease? He ceased working because the work was complete and it is for this reason the number 7 is viewed as the number of completion or God's number. The 7th day is the antithesis to before day one and contrasts complete/incomplete, full/empty, rest/chaos, light/darkness, etc... And these are indeed powerful salvation metaphors

Back to the forienger and the animals and slaves or even entire households. They all partake of the rest but did they earn it? Or put a other way do they have authority to take that rest? The ox cannot say to his master I don't want to work, they have no authority to take rest and in order to have rest they must be given it by their master. This is a mirror of salvation. We may do a 1000 things to "earn" salvation but in the end we have no authority to take it, so it is given to us by the one with authority who is Christ and Christ starts a work in us that when complete users in our 7th day.

 

[oikonomia]

No, in Romans 10:2-4, knowing Jesus is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. God's law divides between what is in accordance with and what is contrary to God's nature, so delighting in acting in accordance with God's nature in obedience to God's law is the way to know Him while acting contrary to God's nature in disobedience to it is the way to know sin.

Man's nature must be changed. Or man must receive a new nature to live unto God.
Jesus taught that the whole matter hinged what nature man had.

Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt; for by the fruit the tree is known.
(Matt. 12:33)

In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is how God is gracious to us. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So we have a choice. Likewise, in Matthew 19:17, and Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that obedience to God's commandments is the way to enter eternal life.

Do you think only the Old Testament speaks honorably about the Law?
You eagerly reach back into the Old Testament to prove that the Law has this high place.
As said before, Paul did speak that the law (though it was weak and became a curse) was good.

Romans 7:7a - What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Absolutely not!

Verse 12 - So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good.

Why do you feel you must always go to the Old Testament to vindicate this when the Paul in the NT informs us?
Could be that the ones who taught you Paul spoke negatively of the Law only partially represented Paul?

If I could meet with anyone in the Bible, then Paul would be pretty high on the list, but no, I do not wish that he had been my student before he wrote his letters. Growing up, I was taught to interpret Paul as having a negative view towards God's law.

He did have a negative attitude. But he was not ONLY saying negative things about it.
The whole picture is he spoke positively about it AND he spoke negatively about it in comparison to the Gospel of Grace.

We need to be careful and thorough to represent Paul.

However, the Psalms express an extremely positive view of God's law, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so all those who consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view towards God's law will also have the same view towards obeying it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22).

Yes in the progressive unfolding of God's economy, there is that stage when the Law being God's word, is lovable.
But it is not the NT first followed by the OT. It is the Old Testament followed by the New Testament.
You know in God's arrangement it was not the Gospel of Luke followed by Deuteronomy.
It is that John has the last word rather than Moses has the last word.

This is not to detract from Moses. This is rather to see his place in the unfolding of God's plan.
Do you dislike the book of Galations?

For example, in Psalms 1:1-2, blessed are those who delight in the law of the Lord and who mediate on it day and night, so we can't believe in the truth of these words while not allowing them to shape our view of God's law. Paul and other other NT authors considered the Psalms to be Scripture, so I simply choose to interpret their writings as though they were in complete agreement with the view of God's law expressed in the Psalms, which I don't think is a stretch, and I've found that the Bible makes much more sense when I interpret it in this manner.

Here you do admit that the Law is also spoken positively of by New Testament apostles.
Having seen the Law itself is not to be dispised, grace transcends it.
You don't want Christians to know that Grace is higher than the law ?

You are unhappy when Christians are taught that the Law is not to be exalted above the Son of God and His grace? Do you feel that if Grace is exalted over Law keeping believers may have an attitude to "continue in sin that grace may abound?"

 

[Soyeong]

Man's nature must be changed. Or man must receive a new nature to live unto God.
Jesus taught that the whole matter hinged what nature man had.

Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt; for by the fruit the tree is known.
(Matt. 12:33)

In Ephesians 2:10 we are new creations in Christ to do good works and God's law is His instructions for how to do good works in accordance with His nature.

Do you think only the Old Testament speaks honorably about the Law?
You eagerly reach back into the Old Testament to prove that the Law has this high place.
As said before, Paul did speak that the law (though it was weak and became a curse) we good.

Romans 7:7a - What then shall we say? Is the law sin? Absolutely not!

Verse 12 - So then the law is holy, and the commandment holy and righteous and good.

Why do you feel you must always go to the Old Testament to vindicate this when the Paul in the NT informs us?
Could be that the ones who taught you Paul spoke negatively of the Law only partially represented Paul?

He did have a negative attitude. But he was not ONLY saying negative things about it.
The whole picture is he spoke positively about it AND he spoke negatively about it in comparison to the Gospel of Grace.

We need to be careful and thorough to represent Paul.

About 1/3 of the verses in the NT contain quotes or allusion to the OT, which the NT authors did thousands of times in order to show that it supported what they are saying and to show that they hadn't departed from it, included the Psalms being the OT book that is most quoted in the NT, so you should have no problem with me using any part of what Paul considered to be Scripture to inform how we should understand him. The Psalms do not speak both positively and negatively about God's law, but uniformly express an extremely positive view of it, so anything less than the view that we ought to delight in obeying it is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law other than the Law of God, such as in Romans 3:27, he contrasted a law works with a law of faith, in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-11, he contrasted a law that our faith upholds with a law that is not of faith, and in Romans 7:25-8:2, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin and death, so while there were categories of law that he spoke negatively about, what he spoke about the Law of God was also uniformly positive.

Yes in the progressive unfolding of God's economy, there is that stage when the Law being God's word, is lovable.
But it is not the NT first followed by the OT. It is the Old Testament followed by the New Testament.
You know in God's arrangement it was not the Gospel of Luke followed by Deuteronomy.
It is that John has the last word rather than Moses has the last word.

This is not to detract from Moses. This is rather to see his place in the unfolding of God's plan.

The Bible begins, ends, and everything in between is about the way to the Tree of Life, so it is all part of one plan and everything that is progressively revealed is in accordance with what has been previously revealed. For example, in Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they diligently tested everything that Paul said against OT Scripture to see if what He said was true, so according to that precedent, agreement with what has been previously revealed is the standard by which we should accept what has been progressively revealed. In the book of Luke, Jesus quoted three times from Deuteronomy to defeat the temptations of Satan, so he affirmed its authority, and the placement of Luke following Deuteronomy does not detract from the truth of anything that is said in Deuteronomy.

Do you dislike the book of Galations?

Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example, so it is not that I don't like the book of Galatians, but that I just don't think that it should be interpreted as speaking against following Christ.

Here you do admit that the Law is also spoken positively of by New Testament apostles.
Having seen the Law itself is not to be dispised, grace transcends it.
You don't want Christians to know that Grace is higher than the law ?

You are unhappy when Christians are taught that the Law is not to be exalted above the Son of God and His grace? Do you feel that if Grace is exalted over Law keeping believers may have an attitude to "continue in sin that grace may abound?"

Graciousness and righteousness have always been compatible character traits of the same God, so His graciousness does not transcend and is not higher than His righteousness, and vice versa, but rather God is gracious to us by teaching us to walk in His way in obedience to His law (Genesis 6:8-9, Exodus 33:13, Psalms 119:29, Romans 1:5, Titus 2:11-14). I've said nothing to suggest that God's law should be exalted out the Son of God and his grace, but rather God's law is God's word and the Son of God is the embodiment of God's word expressed through living in sinless obedience to it, and he is gracious to us by teaching us to also embody it.

 

[oikonomia]

In Ephesians 2:10 we are new creations in Christ to do good works and God's law is His instructions for how to do good works in accordance with His nature.

Your typical sequence is here:
1.) We are a new creation in Christ.
2.) New creations in Christ are created for good works.
3.) The Torah was written that we may do good works.

But the hint seems:
4.) Therefore today we must be keepers of the Torah.

The Law, the Torah seems always to be your focus, your arrival point. It is all for the keeping of the Torah.
Is this the spirit of the New Testament? I think you try to put old wine into new wineskins.

About 1/3 of the verses in the NT contain quotes or allusion to the OT, which the NT authors did thousands of times in order to show that it supported what they are saying and to show that they hadn't departed from it, included the Psalms being the OT book that is most quoted in the NT, so you should have no problem with me using any part of what Paul considered to be Scripture to inform how we should understand him.

Of course there are many quotations or allusions to the OT. Afterall, that was the only Scripture they had written then.
But the cause and attitude with which they referred to the OT I do not think is the same attitude that you display.

Its like this. When Jesus appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration and with Him Moses and Elijah appeared, Peter wanted to
place the three on the same level. He foolishly proposed that they make three equally important tents.
God interrputed Peter's foolish proposal with a voice telling them to hear His Beloved Son the Chosen One.

And a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is My Son, the Chosen One. Hear Him! (Luke9:35)

The flavor you convey is that if you had been there, you would have strongly endorsed that "No, we need to hear Moses. There is no one like Moses who gave us the Torah."

I think you are still there trying to erect a tent in honor of Moses, equal with that of the Son of God, maybe even more notable.

The Psalms do not speak both positively and negatively about God's law, but uniformly express an extremely positive view of it, so anything less than the view that we ought to delight in obeying it is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture.

Again, the unfolding progressive revelation is not FIRST the Gospel of John followed by a concluding word, the book of Psalms,
Your view is looking in the rear view mirror, as it were.

The Psalms are there now to serve the enjoynent of Christ.
Your flavor comes over to me always as "Christ came to help us be law keepers to return to the wonderful Torah."

Paul spoke about multiple different categories of law other than the Law of God, such as in Romans 3:27, he contrasted a law works with a law of faith, in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-11, he contrasted a law that our faith upholds with a law that is not of faith, and in Romans 7:25-8:2, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit with the law of sin and death, so while there were categories of law that he spoke negatively about, what he spoke about the Law of God was also uniformly positive.

I will not look up all these verses just now. But I have noticed that to uphold your attitude that the Torah must be held in honor over Christ, you go through some oft elaborate exegesis of Paul's words.

It too often comes across as you "tolerating" what Paul wrote, IF you can cast his words in your Torah exalting light.
I question the spirit with which you handle many of Paul's teachings. The spirit is not always the same, imo.

The Bible begins, ends, and everything in between is about the way to the Tree of Life,

That is Christ as life. Surely the Gospel of John proves that Jesus Christ today is the reality of that tree of life. He is the life.
Is your focus more that the tree of life represents the Torah?

so it is all part of one plan and everything that is progressively revealed is in accordance with what has been previously revealed. For example, in Acts 17:11, the Bereans were praised because they diligently tested everything that Paul said against OT Scripture to see if what He said was true,

They honorably sought to study the only Scripture they had, to see if Paul's handling of it was true. That is in the things Paul was revealing to them in Scripture about Jesus Christ.

so according to that precedent, agreement with what has been previously revealed is the standard by which we should accept what has been progressively revealed. In the book of Luke, Jesus quoted three times from Deuteronomy to defeat the temptations of Satan, so he affirmed its authority, and the placement of Luke following Deuteronomy does not detract from the truth of anything that is said in Deuteronomy.

Latter in Matthew, Jesus uses this scheme - "You have heard of old by the ancients thus and such. BUT NOW I SAY TO YOU thus and such."
Yes He defeated the temptations of Satan with the words of Deuteronomy.
But He comes with a higher law- the law of Himself.

He is more penetrating, deeper, more radical. more going to the root of the problem. Radical means to go to the root.
The misunderstanding of Him by the Law experts was so bad that they sought to kill Him.

They did not do as you frequently do. That is suggest "Why we welcome this man. He has obviously come to help us all go to the Law of Moses and keep it."

Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Law of Moses by word and by example, so it is not that I don't like the book of Galatians, but that I just don't think that it should be interpreted as speaking against following Christ.

What on earth could you mean by this? It is written by one who absolutely pioneered in the following of Christ, the Spirit.
Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the fesh. (Gal. 5:16)

The flesh there is also the law keeping effort. This law keeping striving is part of "the present evil age" he says Christ came to
rescue us out of.

Who gave Himself for our sins that He might rescue us out of the present evil age according to the will of our God and Father, (Gal. 1:4)

Do you get the spirit of these words?
Galatians 3:2 - This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith?
It is the hearing of faith VERSES the works of the law. They here are set in opposition to each other.

Verse 3 - Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
Begun by the Spirit is VERSES being perfected by the flesh. They here are set in opposition to each other.
And "perfected by the flesh" is his other way of saying "the works of the law."

Verse 4 - Have you suffered so many things in vain, if indeed it was in vain?
If their reply would counter Paul that the law keeping is all they have learned, Paul says his labor for them
has been in vain. He has wasted his effort and time. He has labored for the Galatian churches in VAIN.

Is your spirit akin to Paul's in Galatians? Or are your sympathies more with the bewitched Galatian Christians?

Verse 5- He therefore who bountifully supplies to you the Spirit and does works of power among you, does He do it out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith?
Here being bountifully supplied by the Spirit is set verses and against works of the law.
Being bountifully supplied by the life giving Spirit goes along here with the hearing of faith.

Which is the Apostle's priority here? the fleshly striving to keep the law or the receiving of the Spirit?
His priorities are with receiving the Spirit of life and the empowering grace the Spirit of Christ brings.

Graciousness and righteousness have always been compatible character traits of the same God, so His graciousness does not transcend and is not higher than His righteousness, and vice versa, but rather God is gracious to us by teaching us to walk in His way in obedience to His law (Genesis 6:8-9, Exodus 33:13, Psalms 119:29, Romans 1:5, Titus 2:11-14). I've said nothing to suggest that God's law should be exalted out the Son of God and his grace, but rather God's law is God's word and the Son of God is the embodiment of God's word expressed through living in sinless obedience to it, and he is gracious to us by teaching us to also embody it.

I still have the feeling you exalt the Law over the Son of God as divine life living in the believers - as GRACE and as Spirit.
I welcome the day when you remove from me this taste I too often get from your way.

Look to enter into the spirit of Galatians you have to see this contrasts -
The flesh, the law keeping, the works of the law, the curse the law brings are on one side.
And on the other side for which Paul battles - Christ, the Spirit, Faith, Grace, the Gospel, Life, the Blessing.

Instead of highlighting this tension you seem to want to REMOVE it.
It seems an embarressment to you that Paul would teach this way.

I want to represent you fairly and not unfairly. I have no intention to twist your attitude, your spirit with which you affirm things.
But LOOK at what is written.


Verse 10 - For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in the book of the law to do them.
Be honest with me now. Don't you prefer that Paul had said "As many as of do not keep the law are under a curse. The law keepers are blessed"

Verse 11 - And that by law no one is justified before God is evident because, “The righteous one shall have life and live by faith”;
I think you prefer that Paul wrote - "The righteous one shall live by keeping the law."
I find it hard to shake the feeling that as you read in your mind you turn things upside down.

Verse 12 - But the law is not of faith, yet, “He who does them shall live because of them.”
You see the words. But I think what goes through your mind is "The law IS of faith."
But Paul contrast is the LAW verses FAITH. You seem to want to erase these contrasts. You do not like them.
You run to the Psalms, Deuteronomy, Exodus, etc. to minimize the stark contrast Christ's apostle brings to our attention.

Verse 13 - Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the law, having become a curse on our behalf; because it is written, “Cursed is everyone hanging on a tree”;
I think you see the words but what you THINK is "There is no curse of the law. There is only curse for its disobedience in Deuteronomy."
In the letter it is time for Paul to wage the warfare of truth by speaking of "the curse of the law."

Verse 14 - In order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Yes, you do read the words. But the persistent flavor of your explanations are "The blessing of Abraham is to keep the Law. Jesus came to bless us all by showing us how to go back to keeping the Law of Moses."

I think you are looking too much in the rear view mirror of the gospel car (so to speak).
Now with Christ has come the indwelling Spirit of life, Faith in Christ, the Grace of Christ, the walking by the Spirit, righteousness through Christ being allowed to live in those who receive Him, being dead to the unsuccessful fleshly striving to keep the law, being united with Christ.

 

[Doran]

As a practicing Christian all of my life, I was schooled in moralism by operant conditioning. My bad deeds garnered negative responses and my good deeds were rewarded. I must admit, to a certain extent that is true with most families regardless of their religious affiliation or lack thereof. My view and understanding of God was forged by the carrot and stick and as a result I never felt I was good enough. Moralism did make me aware of how weak and helpless I really was but it offered no solution and no means to attain salvation.

I was taught that faith was a thing developed by exercise and this concept was very puzzling to me since I couldn't quite put it into an action plan. This resulted often in my prayers being followed by intense claims of belief and often ultimate disappointment in the results -- I would write this off to my own lack of faith rather than believing that something was broken in that great vending machine in the sky.

When I came upon This forum it struck me that the title, “The Sabbath and The Law” appeared a little strange in that the Sabbath is part of the law rather than something separate from it so that any discussion regarding the Sabbath was also a discussion of of law keeping. And it always been drilled into me that if you break one of The Commandments you break them all. After all, when Moses came down from the mountain the people were breaking the whole law that's why he threw the tablets to the ground even though the people were only specifically trampling the first commandment.

My story is too long to print here but in short I am filled with joy and happiness because God has revealed that my righteousness is not found in keeping the law or in any form of behavior. In fact, my righteousness is not even in my possession for it sits at this very moment at the right hand of God: it is Jesus Christ!

As the Apostle Paul explained, "But it is from Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God [revealing His plan of salvation], and righteousness [making us acceptable to God], and sanctification [making us holy and setting us apart for God], and redemption [providing our ransom from the penalty for sin]" (1 Cor 1:30) When I was trying to earn my salvation or at the least earn Christ's Grace I was acting as my own savior and showing God away from the ultimate Throne of my heart. I was, in fact, Eve plucking the fruit from the tree in the center of the garden.

Does this mean that I am now free to be as sinful as I want to be? If this question is asked of me I always wonder how sinful the inquisitor wishes to be because the truth is that the behavior prescribed by the law, which includes the all Commandments is a lagging indicator of our Salvation found in Christ Jesus. It is the fruit of Salvation and not the root of salvation. When we abide in Jesus Christ we will bear much fruit but we cannot bear much fruit in order to abide in Jesus Christ. Praise God from whom all blessings flow!

Wow! Awesome testimony of God's grace. He has shown you the straight and narrow path that leads to life (Mat 7:13-14). My suggestion is that you intently focus on the Two Greatest Commandments upon which the entire OT is hinged. Pray to God that he will shower you with the Holy Spirit and fill your heart with love for Him; for when He does that the rest of the Law will inevitably and naturally follow in the wake of that love -- HIS love, including your love on the horizontal level for your neighbor. As explained on another thread recently, while the commands to love God and neighbor are in the Law, paradoxically they transcend Law for the reason stated above and because love is as eternal as the God of Love. It existed long before the Tablets of Stone have and the Source of all true "agape" love is God. Love does no wrong (Rom 13:10). Moreover, it covers a multitude of sins (1Pet 4:8)! What other commandment in God's holy law does that!?

May the Lord bless you richly as you make your exodus out of the wilderness of this dark, sin-filled world to the Promised Land of the City of God.

 

[Clare73]

The only righteousness any of us have is found in Jesus. He is our all-in-one stop for righteousness.

Jesus is our righteousness in that his atonement and sacrifice removed our sin, unrighteousness.

There is:
1) forensic righteousness - imputed in God's declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, finding of right standing with the Court; i.e., penalty paid, time served, nothing owing to the Court,
2) actual righteousness - through obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness leading to holinesss (Ro 6:16, 19), and
3) Jesus our righteousness - his atoning sacrifice removing our sin, unrighteousness.

The way we are to live righteous lives is the same way we become justified. i.e. forgiven: by faith.

There is an actual work of obedience involved in the actual righteousness of sanctification (Ro 6:16-19).

Jesus said to ask and it will be given unto us.

It will be given to us through obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16-19).

Once you have done that you just need to do the same thing every day

As long as that same thing includes obedience in the Holy Spirit (Ro 6:16-19).

of your to build your relationship with Him, and keep on doing that for the rest of your life. That is all there is to becoming a Christian and remaining one for the rest of your life. He takes care of all the changes that need to be made in your life. The devil will do all he can to distract you from keeping on building your relationship with Jesus but has no power to separate you from Jesus . As long as you retain your faith in Him even when you know you've failed Him is just ask forgiveness and go on building your relationship with Hm.

Just remember without Him you can do nothing.

 

[oikonomia]

The only righteousness any of us have is found in Jesus. He is our all-in-one stop for righteousness.



The way we are to live righteous lives is the same way we become justified. i.e. forgiven: by faith.


Jesus said to ask and it will be given unto us.


Once you have done that you just need to do the same thing every day of your to build your relationship with Him, and keep on doing that for the rest of your life. That is all there is to becoming a Christian and remaining one for the rest of your life. He takes care of all the changes that need to be made in your life. The devil will do all he can to distract you from keeping on building your relationship with Jesus but has no power to separate you from Jesus . As long as you retain your faith in Him even when you know you've failed Him is just ask forgiveness and go on building your relationship with Hm.

Just remember without Him you can do nothing.

Gary,
I recall, but cannot locate, an interesting post you wrote about John chapter 3. The jist of it was
that Jesus expected that Nicodemus SHOULD have known what being born again was because it was in the Old Testament.

Jesus answered and said to him, You are a teacher of Israel, and you do not know these things? (John 3:10)

I have a hard time locating that post so that I can respond immediately to it.
Can we continue that exchange here?

Maybe you want to reiterate your point first.

 

[Soyeong]

Your typical sequence is here:

1.) The Torah is God's instructions for how to equip us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:15-17).
2.) We are new creations in Christ to do good works (Ephesians 2:10).
3.) Therefore we are new creations in Christ to keep the Torah.

1.) Those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6).
2.) Christ set an example for us to follow of walking in obedience to the Torah (1 Peter 2:21-22)
3.) Therefore those who are in Christ should follow Christ's example of walking in obedience to the Torah.

The Law, the Torah seems always to be your focus, your arrival point. It is all for the keeping of the Torah.
Is this the spirit of the New Testament? I think you try to put old wine into new wineskins.

According to Mark 12:29-30 and Deuteronomy 6:4-7, the way to keep the most important commandment in the Bible is by always being focused on the Torah. According to Luke 5:33-39, Jesus gave the parable of the wineskins in response to being asked about why his disciples were eating and drinking instead of fasting, so you are taking out of context.

Again, the unfolding progressive revelation is not FIRST the Gospel of John followed by a concluding word, the book of Psalms,

All of Scripture is true, so the fact that John was written after Psalms does not make it any less true, especially when John used Psalms to support the truth of what he said. To hold anything less than the view that we ought to love the Torah and delight in obeying it is to deny that the Psalms are Scripture.

Your flavor comes over to me always as "Christ came to help us belaw keepers to return to the wonderful Torah."

Why is it strange to you that the one who is the embodiment of God's word would be sent to show us how to embody God's word?

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Torah was how his audience knew what they should be repenting from doing, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Jesus also set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20). So indeed the sum of everything that Jesus accomplished through the ministry and through the cross was to help us be to return to the wonderful Torah, which is in accordance with Acts 3:25-26, where Jesus was sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness.

But the cause and attitude with which they referred to the OT I do not think is the same attitude that you display.

The fact that the NT frequently quotes the OT shows that its authors saw the OT as being foundational to what they wrote and that they held the same attitude towards it as I do. None of the accounts of the transfiguration say that Peter was acting foolishly. The Torah is God's word, so it is contradictory to think that we should listen to the one who is the embodiment of God's word instead of listening to God's word.

I will not look up all these verses just now. But I have noticed that to uphold your attitude that the Torah must be held in honor over Christ,
you go through some oft elaborate exegesis of Paul's words.

Distinguishing between which law Paul was speaking about is important to correctly understanding him. In 2 Peter 3:15-18, it says that Paul is difficult to understand, that those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction, to be careful not to be carried away by the error of lawless men, so when Paul is correctly understood he never spoke against obey the Torah. Nevertheless, it is still common for people to misunderstand Paul as speaking against obeying the Torah and to be carried away by the error of lawless men, which is why I try to make the strongest case that I can for why I disagree with them.

I have never suggested that the Torah must be held in honor over Christ and I have denied having that attitude, so it is completely absurd for you to keep acting like I have. Jesus is not greater or lesser than God's word, but rather He is the embodiment of God's word.

That is Christ as life. Surely the Gospel of John proves that Jesus Christ today is the reality of that tree of life. He is the life.
Is your focus more that the tree of life represents the Torah?

It is not that the Tree of Life represents the Torah, but that she is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of her (Proverbs 3:18). The Torah is God's way (Psalms 119:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:46-47), and the way to know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus is the embodiment of the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to know the Father (John 14:6-7). Jesus also confirmed that obedience to the Torah is the way to enter eternal life (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28).

They honorably sought to study the only Scripture they had, to see if Paul's handling of it was true. That is in the things Paul was revealing to them in Scripture about Jesus Christ.

That does not change that agreement with the OT is the standard by which they accepted the truth of what Paul said.

Latter in Matthew, Jesus uses this scheme - "You have heard of old by the ancients thus and such. BUT NOW I SAY TO YOU thus and such."
Yes He defeated the temptations of Satan with the words of Deuteronomy.
But He comes with a higher law- the law of Himself.

He is more penetrating, deeper, more radical. more going to the root of the problem. Radical means to go to the root.

In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from Torah, so Jesus did not do that, and he was not higher or more radical than God's word, but rather he is the embodiment of God's word. In Matthew 4, when Jesus quoted from what was written in Deuteronomy, he preceded it by saying "it is written...", but in Matthew 5, when he was quoting from what the people had heard being said, he proceeded it by saying "you have heard that it was said...", so his emphasis on the different form of communication is important. Jesus was not sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by making changes in disagreement with what was written, but rather he was fulfilling the law by correcting what the people had heard being incorrectly taught and by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended. For example:

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

While we are instructed to love our neighbor in Leviticus 19:18, the Bible does not instruct us to hate our enemy, but rather loving our enemy is in accordance with verses like Exodus 23:4-5, Deuteronomy 23:7, Proverbs 24:17-18, and Proverbs 25:21-22, so that is what he was correcting, which was not detracting from the truth of what is written.

What on earth could you mean by this? It is written by one who absolutely pioneered in the following of Christ, the Spirit.
Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the fesh. (Gal. 5:16)

The flesh there is also the law keeping effort.

Do you get the spirit of these words?
Galatians 3:2 - This only I wish to learn from you, Did you receive the Spirit out of the works of law or out of the hearing of faith?
It is the hearing of faith VERSES the works of the law. They here are set in opposition to each other.

The sum of everything that Christ accomplished through his ministry and through the cross was to lead us to obey the Torah, so I interpreted Galatians as being in accordance with following Chris while you just interpreted Galatians as speaking against obeying the Torah, so you interpret it as speaking against following Christ, so that is what I meant by that.

For example, in Galatians 5:16-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Torah while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with the Torah, yet you misinterpret the works of the flesh as referring to keeping the Torah.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit is given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2, it denies that works of the law are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore the phase "works of the law" does not refer to obedience to God, yet you interpret what Paul said against works of the law as being against obeying the Torah.

The Spirit is God, so you shouldn't need me to help you to recognize how absurd it is for you to interpret Paul as contrasting following God with following the Spirit, especially when the Spirit has the role of leading us to follow the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

I still have the feeling you exalt the Law over the Son of God as divine life living in the believers - as GRACE and as Spirit.

And on the other side for which Paul battles - Christ, the Spirit, Faith, Grace, the Gospel, Life, the Blessing.

I can show many versed those show that following what God has instructed in the Torah is in accordance with Christ, the Spirit, Faith, Grace, the Gospel, Life, and the Blessing, yet for some bizarre reason you think it makes sense to interpret Paul as contrasting those things with following what God has instructed as if God was misleading His people away from those things when He gave the Torah.

In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh, who are enemies of God, who refuse to submit to the Torah, so if Paul thought that people are enemies of God simply for refusing to submit to the Torah, then how much more are you making him out to be an enemy of God by interpreting him as speaking obeying it? If there was a king who gave laws to govern the conduct of his people and there was someone going around speaking against obeying what the king instructed, then this person would not be a servant of the king, but rather he would be an enemy of the king, so I am simply interpreting Galatians as though Paul was a servant of God rather you interpreting it as though he were an enemy of God.

Verse 10 - For as many as are of the works of law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all the things written in the book of the law to do them.

Be honest with me now. Don't you prefer that Paul had said "As many as of do not keep the law are under a curse. The law keepers are blessed"

According to Deuteronomy 27-28, those who rely on the Torah will be blessed while those who do not rely on it will be cursed, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing against that passage, rather all those who rely on works of the law are under a curse because they are doing that instead of relying on the Book of the Law.

Verse 11 - And that by law no one is justified before God is evident because, “The righteous one shall have life and live by faith”;
I think you prefer that Paul wrote - "The righteous one shall live by keeping the law."
I find it hard to shake the feeling that as you read in your mind you turn things upside down.

Again, in Romans 3:27-31 and Galatians 3:10-11, Paul contrasted the Torah that our faith upholds with works of the law that are not of faith. God is trustworthy, therefore what He has instructed is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obeying what He instructed, to deny that what what God has instructed is of faith would be to deny the faithfulness of God, and it is contradictory for you to think that God is trustworthy while also thinking that what He has instructed is not. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Torah, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not obedience to it.

Verse 12 - But the law is not of faith, yet, “He who does them shall live because of them.”
You see the words. But I think what goes through your mind is "The law IS of faith."
But Paul contrast is the LAW verses FAITH. You seem to want to erase these contrasts. You do not like them.
You run to the Psalms, Deuteronomy, Exodus, etc. to minimize the stark contrast Christ's apostle brings to our attention.

According to Romans 3:27, while there is a law that is not of faith, there is also a law that is of faith, so the problem is that you are taking what was only said against the law of works and applying it to what was said about the law of faith in spite of many verses like Matthew 23:23, where Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah and Romans 3:31, where our faith upholds the Torah. In Galatians 3:11-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 saying that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys the Torah shall live by it, so again the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Torah. It is not that I don't like what these verses say, but that I just don't interpret them in a way that makes Paul out to be an enemy of God.

Verse 13 - Christ has redeemed us out of the curse of the law, having become a curse on our behalf; because it is written, “Cursed is everyone hanging on a tree”;
I think you see the words but what you THINK is "There is no curse of the law. There is only curse for its disobedience in Deuteronomy."
In the letter it is time for Paul to wage the warfare of truth by speaking of "the curse of the law."

Again, in Deuteronomy 27-28, it describes the blessing of the law for those who rely on it and the curse of the law for those who do not, so being set free from the cruse of not relying on the Torah is being set free to enjoy the blessing of relying on it. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Christ gave himself to free us from God's law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness.

Verse 14 - In order that the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Yes, you do read the words. But the persistent flavor of your explanations are "The blessing of Abraham is to keep the Law. Jesus came to bless us all by showing us how to go back to keeping the Law of Moses."

The Gospel that Jesus preached in Matthew 4:15-23 called for repenting from transgressing the Torah, which was in accordance with him being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, which is also in accordance with the Gospel that was made know in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5). In Genesis 18:19, Genesis 26:4-5, and Deuteronomy 30:16, the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, and he taught his children and those of his household how to do that, and because they did that in obedience to the Torah. In John 8:39, Jesus stud that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him, so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied in accordance with the promise is not through having physical descendants, but through teaching others how to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way. Likewise, in Psalms 119:1-3, the Torah is how the children of Abraham knew how to be blessed by walking in God's way, so the way to inherit the promise through faith of being a blessing to the nations is by teaching the nations how to be blessed by turning them from their wickedness and teaching them to obey the Torah in accordance with spreading the Gospel of Christ Jesus.

Now with Christ has come the indwelling Spirit of life, Faith in Christ, the Grace of Christ, the walking by the Spirit, righteousness through Christ being allowed to live in those who receive Him, being dead to the unsuccessful fleshly striving to keep the law, being united with Christ.

I can cite verses that show how everything you listed is in accordance with living in obedience to the Torah except that dying to the flesh is dying to living in sin, which is in transgression of the Torah, not striving to keep it through faith.

 

[Gary K]

Gary,
I recall, but cannot locate, an interesting post you wrote about John chapter 3. The jist of it was
that Jesus expected that Nicodemus SHOULD have known what being born again was because it was in the Old Testament.

Jesus answered and said to him, You are a teacher of Israel, and you do not know these things? (John 3:10)

I have a hard time locating that post so that I can respond immediately to it.
Can we continue that exchange here?

Maybe you want to reiterate your point first.

Sorry, I'm an old guy with a failing memory. I can remember making the post but exactly what was in it I can't remember, I'll pray about it and see if God decides to help both of us out. I believe He will because He has worked a lot of miracles in my life and it is His desire that we all learn as much about Him as possible. We just may have to wait some time before my memory of that post comes back.

 

[Gary K]

1.) The Torah is God's instructions for how to equip us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:15-17).
2.) We are new creations in Christ to do good works (Ephesians 2:10).
3.) Therefore we are new creations in Christ to keep the Torah.

1.) Those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6).
2.) Christ set an example for us to follow of walking in obedience to the Torah (1 Peter 2:21-22)
3.) Therefore those who are in Christ should follow Christ's example of walking in obedience to the Torah.


According to Mark 12:29-30 and Deuteronomy 6:4-7, the way to keep the most important commandment in the Bible is by always being focused on the Torah. According to Luke 5:33-39, Jesus gave the parable of the wineskins in response to being asked about why his disciples were eating and drinking instead of fasting, so you are taking out of context.


All of Scripture is true, so the fact that John was written after Psalms does not make it any less true, especially when John used Psalms to support the truth of what he said. To hold anything less than the view that we ought to love the Torah and delight in obeying it is to deny that the Psalms are Scripture.


Why is it strange to you that the one who is the embodiment of God's word would be sent to show us how to embody God's word?

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and the Torah was how his audience knew what they should be repenting from doing, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Jesus also set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to the Torah and we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20). So indeed the sum of everything that Jesus accomplished through the ministry and through the cross was to help us be to return to the wonderful Torah, which is in accordance with Acts 3:25-26, where Jesus was sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness.


The fact that the NT frequently quotes the OT shows that its authors saw the OT as being foundational to what they wrote and that they held the same attitude towards it as I do. None of the accounts of the transfiguration say that Peter was acting foolishly. The Torah is God's word, so it is contradictory to think that we should listen to the one who is the embodiment of God's word instead of listening to God's word.


Distinguishing between which law Paul was speaking about is important to correctly understanding him. In 2 Peter 3:15-18, it says that Paul is difficult to understand, that those who are ignorant and unstable twist his words to their own destruction, to be careful not to be carried away by the error of lawless men, so when Paul is correctly understood he never spoke against obey the Torah. Nevertheless, it is still common for people to misunderstand Paul as speaking against obeying the Torah and to be carried away by the error of lawless men, which is why I try to make the strongest case that I can for why I disagree with them.

I have never suggested that the Torah must be held in honor over Christ and I have denied having that attitude, so it is completely absurd for you to keep acting like I have. Jesus is not greater or lesser than God's word, but rather He is the embodiment of God's word.


It is not that the Tree of Life represents the Torah, but that she is a Tree of Life for all who take hold of her (Proverbs 3:18). The Torah is God's way (Psalms 119:1-3), the truth (Psalms 119:142), and the life (Deuteronomy 32:46-47), and the way to know the Father (Exodus 33:13), and Jesus is the embodiment of the way, the truth, and the life, and the way to know the Father (John 14:6-7). Jesus also confirmed that obedience to the Torah is the way to enter eternal life (Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28).


That does not change that agreement with the OT is the standard by which they accepted the truth of what Paul said.


In Deuteronomy 4:2, it is a sin to add to or subtract from Torah, so Jesus did not do that, and he was not higher or more radical than God's word, but rather he is the embodiment of God's word. In Matthew 4, when Jesus quoted from what was written in Deuteronomy, he preceded it by saying "it is written...", but in Matthew 5, when he was quoting from what the people had heard being said, he proceeded it by saying "you have heard that it was said...", so his emphasis on the different form of communication is important. Jesus was not sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by making changes in disagreement with what was written, but rather he was fulfilling the law by correcting what the people had heard being incorrectly taught and by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended. For example:

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’

While we are instructed to love our neighbor in Leviticus 19:18, the Bible does not instruct us to hate our enemy, but rather loving our enemy is in accordance with verses like Exodus 23:4-5, Deuteronomy 23:7, Proverbs 24:17-18, and Proverbs 25:21-22, so that is what he was correcting, which was not detracting from the truth of what is written.


The sum of everything that Christ accomplished through his ministry and through the cross was to lead us to obey the Torah, so I interpreted Galatians as being in accordance with following Chris while you just interpreted Galatians as speaking against obeying the Torah, so you interpret it as speaking against following Christ, so that is what I meant by that.

For example, in Galatians 5:16-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Torah while all of the fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature that are in accordance with the Torah, yet you misinterpret the works of the flesh as referring to keeping the Torah.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit is given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2, it denies that works of the law are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore the phase "works of the law" does not refer to obedience to God, yet you interpret what Paul said against works of the law as being against obeying the Torah.

The Spirit is God, so you shouldn't need me to help you to recognize how absurd it is for you to interpret Paul as contrasting following God with following the Spirit, especially when the Spirit has the role of leading us to follow the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27).


I can show many versed those show that following what God has instructed in the Torah is in accordance with Christ, the Spirit, Faith, Grace, the Gospel, Life, and the Blessing, yet for some bizarre reason you think it makes sense to interpret Paul as contrasting those things with following what God has instructed as if God was misleading His people away from those things when He gave the Torah.

In Romans 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh, who are enemies of God, who refuse to submit to the Torah, so if Paul thought that people are enemies of God simply for refusing to submit to the Torah, then how much more are you making him out to be an enemy of God by interpreting him as speaking obeying it? If there was a king who gave laws to govern the conduct of his people and there was someone going around speaking against obeying what the king instructed, then this person would not be a servant of the king, but rather he would be an enemy of the king, so I am simply interpreting Galatians as though Paul was a servant of God rather you interpreting it as though he were an enemy of God.


According to Deuteronomy 27-28, those who rely on the Torah will be blessed while those who do not rely on it will be cursed, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as Paul quoting from that passage in order to support a point that is arguing against that passage, rather all those who rely on works of the law are under a curse because they are doing that instead of relying on the Book of the Law.


Again, in Romans 3:27-31 and Galatians 3:10-11, Paul contrasted the Torah that our faith upholds with works of the law that are not of faith. God is trustworthy, therefore what He has instructed is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust God is by obeying what He instructed, to deny that what what God has instructed is of faith would be to deny the faithfulness of God, and it is contradictory for you to think that God is trustworthy while also thinking that what He has instructed is not. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Torah, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not obedience to it.


According to Romans 3:27, while there is a law that is not of faith, there is also a law that is of faith, so the problem is that you are taking what was only said against the law of works and applying it to what was said about the law of faith in spite of many verses like Matthew 23:23, where Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Torah and Romans 3:31, where our faith upholds the Torah. In Galatians 3:11-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 saying that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys the Torah shall live by it, so again the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to the Torah. It is not that I don't like what these verses say, but that I just don't interpret them in a way that makes Paul out to be an enemy of God.


Again, in Deuteronomy 27-28, it describes the blessing of the law for those who rely on it and the curse of the law for those who do not, so being set free from the cruse of not relying on the Torah is being set free to enjoy the blessing of relying on it. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Christ gave himself to free us from God's law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness.


The Gospel that Jesus preached in Matthew 4:15-23 called for repenting from transgressing the Torah, which was in accordance with him being sent in fulfillment of the promise to bless us by turning us from our wickedness, which is also in accordance with the Gospel that was made know in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise (Galatians 3:8), which he spread to those in Haran in accordance with the promise (Genesis 12:1-5). In Genesis 18:19, Genesis 26:4-5, and Deuteronomy 30:16, the promise was made to Abraham and brought about because he walked in God's way in obedience to His law, and he taught his children and those of his household how to do that, and because they did that in obedience to the Torah. In John 8:39, Jesus stud that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him, so the way that the children of Abraham are multiplied in accordance with the promise is not through having physical descendants, but through teaching others how to do the same works as Abraham by walking in God's way. Likewise, in Psalms 119:1-3, the Torah is how the children of Abraham knew how to be blessed by walking in God's way, so the way to inherit the promise through faith of being a blessing to the nations is by teaching the nations how to be blessed by turning them from their wickedness and teaching them to obey the Torah in accordance with spreading the Gospel of Christ Jesus.


I can cite verses that show how everything you listed is in accordance with living in obedience to the Torah except that dying to the flesh is dying to living in sin, which is in transgression of the Torah, not striving to keep it through faith.

Keeping the law through faith doesn't require striving. It becomes natural to us as the substance of God's law is written in our hearts. If loving God and His law has become part of who we are it takes no effort to keep it. I've experienced this in my life and am now living proof of it.

 

[Soyeong]

Keeping the law through faith doesn't require striving. It becomes natural to us as the substance of God's law is written in our hearts. If loving God and His law has become part of who we are it takes no effort to keep it. I've experienced this in my life and am now living proof of it.

Then what is your view of this verse?:

Hebrews 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

 

[Gary K]

Then what is your view of this verse?:

Hebrews 4:11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.

Probably quite a bit different than yours. I read this in the context of what John says.

1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Now I don't know about you but I don't believe John is a liar. So what that test means is when I ask Jesus into my heart He stays until I walk away from Him. This the constancy of my abiding in Him is the key to obeying Him at all times. This text says basically the exact same thing John says in Revelation.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

This is what Paul talks about in 1Corinthians, Philippians. Ephesians, and Galatians.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

As you study this concept you will come to learn it is found all throughout scripture, OT and NT.

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Knowing God is salvation.