Moralism failed me, so where is my righteousness?

[Gary K]

I guess your question is about Christians who sin? And you're wondering how that relates to Jesus' statement about sinners being slaves of sin?

Yes, but more specifically about how understanding how the teachings of the Talmud relates to what Jesus said to the Jews.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Yes, but more specifically about how understanding how the teachings of the Talmud relates to what Jesus said to the Jews.

I wasn't aware that the Talmud had anything to do with what Jesus said. Didn't it come later?

 

[Gary K]

I wasn't aware that the Talmud had anything to do with what Jesus said. Didn't it come later?

No. The Talmud was first started about 600 years before Christ's birth. It was then known as the oral law because it was passed down from rabbi to rabbi until about 200 years after Christ's death. At that point it was committed to writing. Jesus made mention of it when He referred to the Pharisees' tradition which they forced upon the people but didn't keep themselves. They had all kinds of teachings that directly contradicted each other but required the people to believe both sides of the contadictions. If the people spoke up about them the Pharisees would excommunicate them. This is why the people were amazed at His doctrine because He spoke as one having authority and not as the scribes and Pharisees.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Ok, I am aware of Jesus being against their traditions. So was your point that Jesus said they were slaves of sin that needed to be freed by Him? I don't get how this relates to their traditions.

 

[Gary K]

Ok, I am aware of Jesus being against their traditions. So was your point that Jesus said they were slaves of sin that needed to be freed by Him? I don't get how this relates to their traditions.

Their "Bible" was the Talmud.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Sin is a tricky thing, especially given Jesus' statements that murder occurs in the heart as a result of hatred and adultery occurs in the heart as a result of lust. Let's just look at these verses for more detail:

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like. (Ga 5:19–21)​

The last phrase, "and the like", indicates that this is a sample, not a complete list of sins that come from gratifying the lusts of the flesh. But keeping in mind what Jesus said, the lusts of the flesh are also in and of themselves sins. It is true: "Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." (Ga 5:16) But the verse presumes that the lusts of the flesh are there, since leaving the lusts of the flesh unfulfilled is not the same as not experiencing the lusts of the flesh.

All this makes it abundantly clear why it is so imprtant that we are not under law, but under grace. Because of Jesus, "we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." (Ro 7:6) We can serve God with a clear conscience in spite of the depravity of our own flesh because our sinfulness and all our individual sins are forgiven.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Their "Bible" was the Talmud.

Their Bible was the Old Testament. Here is one example that makes it clear:

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. [The New King James Version (Jn 5:39–40). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

 

[Gary K]

Their Bible was the Old Testament. Here is one example that makes it clear:

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. [The New King James Version (Jn 5:39–40). (1982). Thomas Nelson.]​

You don't know that while they read the Torah they put three times the effort into studying the Talmud. Here's a quote from a Jew who was raised until he was in his teens to be a rabbi. His rabbinical training started at age five and he had to put in more time at it than he did at school.

TEACHINGS OF RABBIS PLACED ABOVE GOD’S WORD
15. They were putting themselves in the place of God to the people; their sayings were placed
upon equality with God’s teachings. Hence we read that the written law was like water; but the oral law,
Mishna, was like wine: the Gemara, like spiced wine. Some went as far as to say that the words of the
scribes are lovely above the words of the law (meaning the written law), for the words of the written law
are weighty and light; but the words of the scribes are all weighty. One, Rabbi Judah, son of Tamai, said:
“A child at five years should study the Bible, at ten the Mishna, at fifteen the Gernara.”
From this last statement it can be seen that three times as much value is placed upon the words of
men as upon the words of God. The person as he comes to years of maturity should regard the words of the
Scripture only one-third as much as he does the words of the rabbis. Yes, they go so far as to say:
“Yea, though they should tell thee that thy right hand is the left, and the left hand that it is the
right, it must be believed.”
It is not surprising, then, that the Savior condemned those teachers for making void the word of
God by their tradition. By their multiplicity of maxims they enslaved the man; they put the word of God
aside, in order that their words might be highly esteemed. F. C. Gilbert Practical Lessons from the Experience of Israel p. 12

 

[oikonomia]

So now do you understand the meaning of Jesus' saying the following?

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Oh, I understand that he who commits sin is a SLAVE of sin by my personal life's experience.

Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

I understand this also as though God said personally to me - "Jack, you and I are completely incompatible.
And by the way, I don't change."

So if He wants me in His house for eternity, He must change me into the image of Christ the Firstborn Son of God.

Now I lost your paste of John 8:36 on a techincality.
But I also understand Christ the Son can set me FREE INDEED.

In fact belonging to Christ we actually become slaves of righteousness. -"enslaved to righteousness."

Romans 6:17,18 -
But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you have obeyed from the heart the form of teaching into which you were delivered.
And having been freed from sin, you were enslaved to righteousness.

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

I do not know why you tell me that I do not understand these passages.
You're not talking to me.

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

I understand this passage. There is no passage here that I do not understand.
Of course I could always have a ever deeper appreciation of them as with any living truth in the Bible.

 

[Gary K]

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Oh, I understand that he who commits sin is a SLAVE of sin by my personal life's experience.

Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

I understand this also as though God said personally to me - "Jack, you and I are completely incompatible.
And by the way, I don't change."

So if He wants me in His house for eternity, He must change me into the image of Christ the Firstborn Son of God.

Now I lost your paste of John 8:36 on a techincality.
But I also understand Christ the Son can set me FREE INDEED.

In fact belonging to Christ we actually become slaves of righteousness. -"enslaved to righteous."

Romans 6:17,18 -
But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you have obeyed from the heart the form of teaching into which you were delivered.
And having been freed from sin, you were enslaved to righteousness.

Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

I do not know why you tell me that I do not understand these passages.
You're not talking to me.

Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

I understand this passage. There is no passage here that I do not understand.
Of course I could always have a ever deeper appreciation of them as with any living truth in the Bible.

You do not seem to understand the implications of the Pharisees' legalism in following the Talmud. That is why they hated Jesus and His disciples, and when Paul changed after his meeting with Jesus on the road to Damascus, they hated him too as he stopped following the Talmud and began to love God and people instead. That was heresy in their book.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

You don't know that while they read the Torah they put three times the effort into studying the Talmud. Here's a quote from a Jew who was raised until he was in his teens to be a rabbi. His rabbinical training started at age five and he had to put in more time at it than he did at school.

How in the world can you put time into studying traditions that aren't even written down? Do you just sit at someone's feet and get lectured to every day? Besides, they had more than just the Torah. They had the rest of the Old Testament too. Wasn't Jesus given a scroll of Isaiah to read? Didn't the NT writers quote many other books besides the first 5?

And I still don't get the point. Are you trying to say the oral traditions that eventually would make it into the Talmud was their problem? It wasn't, and isn't. It's their lack of faith that is their problem. Or maybe this argument in some way deflects from the law's lead role in the ministry of death? I really don't understand. Maybe I missed something above because I've been absent for a few days.

 

[Gary K]

How in the world can you put time into studying traditions that aren't even written down? Do you just sit at someone's feet and get lectured to every day? Besides, they had more than just the Torah. They had the rest of the Old Testament too. Wasn't Jesus given a scroll of Isaiah to read? Didn't the NT writers quote many other books besides the first 5?

And I still don't get the point. Are you trying to say the oral traditions that eventually would make it into the Talmud was their problem? It wasn't, and isn't. It's their lack of faith that is their problem. Or maybe this argument in some way deflects from the law's lead role in the ministry of death? I really don't understand. Maybe I missed something above because I've been absent for a few days.

I'm retired/disabled and have been for 20+ years. I've been studying scripture for decades thouigh. I find it very enjoyable to study everything I can related to salvation and I love God and His word.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

You do not seem to understand the implications of the Pharisees' legalism in following the Talmud. That is why they hated Jesus and His disciples, and when Paul changed after his meeting with Jesus on the road to Damascus, they hated him too as he stopped following the Talmud and began to love God and people instead. That was heresy in their book.

The Bible says many things about why the Israelites rejected Jesus, but in none of those places does it point the finger at unwritten traditions. The traditoins may have played a role, but seeking to be right with God through obedience to the law and refusal to place their faith in Jesus are the two things pointed to most often. Here are some esamples:

1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Ro 10:1–4)​

4 If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; (Php 3:4–9)​

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (Ro 11:19–23)​

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I'm retired/disabled and have been for 20+ years. I've been studying scripture for decades thouigh. I find it very enjoyable to study everything I can related to salvation and I love God and His word.

Sorry to hear about your disability, but it seems you are making the most of it. More power to you, buddy. I can't stomach reading more than 1 or 2 sentences of the Talmud snippets you've posted. It reminds me of some of the Southern Baptist traditions that I got caught up in several decades ago. So, I don't think this is a unique circumstance.

 

[Gary K]

The Bible says many things about why the Israelites rejected Jesus, but in none of those places does it point the finger at unwritten traditions. The traditoins may have played a role, but seeking to be right with God through obedience to the law and refusal to place their faith in Jesus are the two things pointed to most often. Here are some esamples:

1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. (Ro 10:1–4)​

4 If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; (Php 3:4–9)​

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (Ro 11:19–23)​

So your quotes of scripture point directly at trying to earn salvation by rule keeping which is exactly what the Talmud is all about. I show you exactly what the Pharisees had learned all of their lives was more important than
God's word and then you point at examples from Paul's writings that demonstrate what I say and think that what I say can't be true. Remember the reason He hated Christ's followers is because he had been trained as a Pharisee all his life. That's what the Jews did with their best and brightest.

Here is another reference by Jesus to the Pharisees and their obsession with legalism. He sure wasn't condemning them for keeping the commandments.

Mat_23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

 

[Gary K]

Sorry to hear about your disability, but it seems you are making the most of it. More power to you, buddy. I can't stomach reading more than 1 or 2 sentences of the Talmud snippets you've posted. It reminds me of some of the Southern Baptist traditions that I got caught up in several decades ago. So, I don't think this is a unique circumstance.

The Talmud is far worse than anything the Southern Baptists could ever dream up. I don't see them with 10,000+ rules to control every aspect of their lives.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

The Talmud is far worse than anything the Southern Baptists could ever dream up. I don't see them with 10,000+ rules to control every aspect of their lives.

Yep, nothing on the same scale for sure. But they were unwritten rules to live by nonetheless. And you got nowhere within the church if you didn't strictly adhere to them. "[Those] things indeed [had] an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but [were] of no value against the indulgence of the flesh." (Col 2:23)

 

[oikonomia]

So your quotes of scripture point directly at trying to earn salvation by rule keeping which is exactly what the Talmud is all about. I show you exactly what the Pharisees had learned all of their lives was more important than
God's word and then you point at examples from Paul's writings that demonstrate what I say and think that what I say can't be true. Remember the reason He hated Christ's followers is because he had been trained as a Pharisee all his life. That's what the Jews did with their best and brightest.

Here is another reference by Jesus to the Pharisees and their obsession with legalism. He sure wasn't condemning them for keeping the commandments.

If you try to make case that all problems of opposition to Gospel were due to the Talmud legalism, and extra biblical traditions
of Jews, it will not be a convincing care. You may legitimately point to legalism of the Talmud. You will not be able
to stretch that generalization over all legalism.

Whn John draws attention to grace and reality coming with Jesus Christ the did not say
"The Talmud was given through _________; Grace and reality came through Jesus Christ."

He drew the contrast between the law Moses received from God AND the grace and reality which comes through Jesus Christ.

For the LAW was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:17 my emphasis)

Do not overplay the Talmud card beyond its influence.
Yes, extra canonical traditions of religionists Jesus pointed to as against the truth.
No, they were not the only legalistic impediment to grace and reality.

 

[oikonomia]

I'm retired/disabled and have been for 20+ years. I've been studying scripture for decades thouigh. I find it very enjoyable to study everything I can related to salvation and I love God and His word.

I am glad that you use your circumstances to dive into the word of God.

I was taken good care of by older saints to learn early to say "Amen." to whatever the Scriptures say.
If I like it - I learn to say "Amen."
If it stepped on my toes, I learned to say "Amen."

If throws a monkey wrench into my pre-conceptions, too bad, I say "Amen."
If it rubs my fur the wrong way, you just have to turn the cat around at least for that part of the Word.

The greatest blessing of nourishment and enlightenment has been for me to 'AMEN" every line of the word of God.
The Bible somewhere steps on everyone's toes.
I don't know if there is even an angel likes everything written in the Bible.

I measure a man's openess to God by how willing he is to AMEN everything in the word of God without preference.
Thankyou for all the wonderful passages you quoted to me.
I have to say "Amen" though to everything my Father tells me in that Bible.

 

[Gary K]

If you try to make case that all problems of opposition to Gospel were due to the Talmud legalism, and extra biblical traditions
of Jews, it will not be a convincing care. You may legitimately point to legalism of the Talmud. You will not be able
to stretch that generalization over all legalism.

Whn John draws attention to grace and reality coming with Jesus Christ the did not say
"The Talmud was given through _________; Grace and reality came through Jesus Christ."

He drew the contrast between the law Moses received from God AND the grace and reality which comes through Jesus Christ.

For the LAW was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:17 my emphasis)

Do not overplay the Talmud card beyond its influence.
Yes, extra canonical traditions of religionists Jesus pointed to as against the truth.
No, they were not the only legalistic impediment to grace and reality.

You're reading scripture through the lens of today, not from the context of the Jewish culture of Christ's and Paul's day. That's exactly why I read thing's like the the Talmud so I can view things from a culture that is nothing like our modern world.

I read a lot of old out of copyright books so I can see things from different perspectives. I've read a lot of philosophy and history books from the days of ancient Rome to the 17th and 18th century. I've been curious about most things since I was a little kid. At one time I had more than 4500 ebooks until hackers bricked my laptop.