Moral Obligation?

[Hetta]

Ya know, I've gotta admit, I grant different degrees of leeway to different groups. Like, the kind of stuff you're talking about is (at least in my mind) understandable with teenagers...because teenagers are just kinda confused overall. They've got so much stuff going on hormonally (and with the amount of intellectual development going on) that it isn't exactly realistic to expect rational thought from them.

I also grant a degree of leeway to the elderly...because...well...you're pretty much at the end of your rope anyhow. If you only have a year or so to go - and that year is gonna really suck - maybe that ought to be taken into consideration.

But - I don't grant that kind of leeway to your normal humdrum individual walking around out there.

For example - I know a lady who was married to some chronically depressed guy that ended up killing himself (shot himself.) He did it in their home, and left himself for her to find later. He also left two young teenage children to have to cope with it.

Now - as you said - everyone grieves for the survivors and complains about the selfishness of the person because "they just don't understand". Maybe I don't...but I'd like to think that I would suck it up for the benefit of my children (especially). Part of life, in my opinion, is that you have obligations to others that you have voluntarily taken upon yourself...and the fact they were voluntary means that those now supersede your own individual desires.

It would be one thing if you were some hermit living up in the woods - and you chose to knock yourself off. It's quite another if you've been carrying on in life, chose to have a few kids, and now decided it was "just too much for you." Once you've started bringing other people into the equation - it ceases being your choice any more (once again, IMHO). That's why I think it rubs people the wrong way, and gets such a strong reaction about it being pure selfishness.

Ezoo, you must be my lost brother from birth! This was exactly - almost word for word - what I would have been about to say, but I was trying to think of ways to word it carefully because I love my Inka, and didn't want to hurt her feelings.

There is a massive difference between the emotions and pain of teen years and becoming an adult. What happens to teens - the ones who are bullied and become suicidal or commit suicide for instance - is a whole different situation to an adult. The man I was talking about who killed himself had a wife and a family. He was in treatment for depression. He was in an entirely different place than a vulnerable teen who is not being heard and has no power. He owed it to people to whom he had chosen to bind himself to take his meds and stay in treatment, but he chose to wait until she was gone one evening, drank himself into a stupor, and hung himself from the ceiling of the second storey of the house, knowing she would come home and find his body and the inevitable mess of suicide, because there is a mess. This was about 25 years ago, but I remember the details very, very clearly. I also remember how badly she fought to keep him alive prior to the suicide, because he had threatened it frequently. It absolutely broke her heart and destroyed for a time the peace and joy of their extended families. For the kids, there are repercussions to this day.

There is too much 'glamorization' of suicide. Did you know this: when famous people commit suicide, there is always a slew of copycat suicides? It is called the Werther effect. I just studied a module on this in my Sociology minor, hence it is uppermost in my mind. The opposite of this is the Papageno effect, where examples of positive coping (people overcoming extreme situations) has the opposite effect. But then, who ever heard of a front page story and massive press coverage when a celebrity doesn't commit suicide. Ha.

That's why I find what Ms. Cobain had to say so positive and uplifting. She could have gone a very different way. She could be living the same lifestyle as her parents (which yes, okay, I know she's in the public eye, but she's not abusing drugs or acting like a loon) and embracing the 'live fast, die young and leave a good looking corpse' meme, but she has gone the other way entirely, and is encouraging others to think differently, to not glamorize suicide, and she is talking from a perspective of one who knows what it's like to grow up without a parent, because of suicide. I find that so very encouraging and I hope that other young people pay attention to what she has to say.

 

[sdmsanjose]

By Inkachu
First of all, I understand that you're coming at this from a "I can't relate to it" angle. All I can say is "that's my POINT. You haven't been there. You cannot understand."

I know for a fact that I CANNOT UNDERSTAND.
What I do understand about Inkachu based on her posts is that her posts are very insightful and honest. In addition, she writes very well and has a good heart

On September 12, 2012 my son’s ex-girlfriend committed suicide. I had no idea she would do that. Even though she was no longer my son’s girlfriend she would bring the children over to see us and would always come for Halloween to trick or treat. Even though we were not the children’s biological parents they always called us grandpa (Tata) and grandma (NaNa).


Ever since September 12, 2012 suicide scares me a lot. Probably because it is so dramatic and I do not understand it.

I wrote a piece on another forum about this suicide and here is a partial reprint below:

Below is a reprint of Déjà last words on Facebook. The second reprint is Deja’s mother’s post. By the time help got to her home it was to late!

September13, 2012

HAVEN'T BEEN DOING SO WELL FOR A WHILE NOW AND I FEEL I CAN'T GO ON.. SO IF PLAINS GO THRO EVERYTHING GOES TO MY MOM ANNETTE WHITE AND SHE'LL KNOW WAT TO DO WITH MY THINGZ. MOM I LOVE U NEVER FORGET THAT...AND PATRICK AND ALL OF MY GIRLZ ARE MY LIFE SO SORRY BUT I CAN'T MAKE IT WITHOUT U GUYZ... TAMMY IN SORRY IM NOT THE PERSON U WANT ME TO BE...

Top of Form 1​

· · 23 hours ago via mobile

Bottom of Form 1​

Annette Roman White
Hi everyone.. I have Bad news. My only child "Deja " died last night around 12:30am. She was 28 years old, Beautiful, and the mother of 4 beautiful children... Rachel, Mia, Kayden and Chaysen. I love her sooo very much and my heart hurts for her so much. Deja joined her 2 son's Kayden & Chaysen, and her nana Genice in Heaven. She left behind her mother & father Annette & Ruben, Her 2 daughter's Rachel & Mia. Aunts, uncles and cousins from both sides of the family and some very close family members, Please Keep us all in your prayers please!!!


This is very disheartening and depressing as I remember Déjà as a bubbly teenage girl with all her dreams. Yes she was boy crazy but that is not bad.

I cannot imagine what it is like to have your 28 year old child so depressed with life that she commits suicide.

I realize more now how precious life is and how someone’s bad choices in life does not take away from the fact that this girl was a perky, warm, and dreamy girl that wanted love and human relations to fill her heart.

It is beyond sad that a young life was so tormented that it chose death at age 28.

I hope that something good comes out of this, maybe someone can learn something but at the moment I cannot think of anything.

Life can result in such deep despair. I do not like to be a downer but thought that positing this may help me or someone else. I can’t image
how but they say talking about such things can give some relief.

 

[DZoolander]

I agree.

My closest experience with it was my favorite cousin growing up. There's a great age disparity in my family - and I'm the youngest by a BIG stretch of years (my "favorite cousin" was actually my second cousin - because my real first cousin (his mom) was 25 years older than me) - so having someone close to my age was something special. He was about a year younger than me.

Most of my memories from my formative years - especially the best ones surrounding holidays - involve him. It felt like there was someone else that I grew up with - outside of my brother (who came fraught with normal brother issues...lol)

Well - when we were in our early 20's he apparently started having some problems and didn't know how to cope with them. After his grandfather died (who he was closest to of everyone) he went into a tailspin. I remember his mom being concerned and asking me to look in on him to check if he was okay. I was busy with college, girlfriend at the time, etc...so I said "Okay" - but never got around to it.

Two months later - he got into a fight with his girlfriend - and when she left he put a shotgun in his mouth and killed himself.

That really impacted upon me on a lot of levels...ranging from losing the external family member I always felt warmest to...to the fact that his mom had asked me that and I'd failed to do anything about it. His mom wouldn't even look at me at the funeral - and it's only in the past few years (over 20 years later) that we've started talking again.

Then there's the guy's aunt. She was a police officer and apparently had some problems in her personal life. She moved back in with her folks (at the age of 40ish)...and one night took her service revolver and shot herself in the heart in their upstairs bedroom. They heard a noise - called my dad and asked him to come over to check on her - and it was my dad that found her.

So I remember hearing about that growing up - and seeing the impact that had on my dad.

So yeah - my thoughts always kinda go to the survivors - because I can't relate to/understand the person.

 

[Inkachu]

I don't automatically connect suicide with selfishness (anymore than I connect hunger with gluttony), but that guy who shot himself in the house...who the hell did he think would have to clean that up?

Really?

Really??

Shaking my head.

 

[Inkachu]

What I do understand about Inkachu based on her posts is that her posts are very insightful and honest. In addition, she writes very well and has a good heart

Thank you, Sdmsanjose. You're always very kind to me.

The mother's post mentions that the young woman "followed" two of her children. I'm assuming that means two of her children had died prior to her suicide. I can't even fathom trying to go on living after the death of my child, let alone two children. Poor, poor girl.

Trying to argue who is "more pitiable" in these situations is pointless, guys. EVERYONE is to be pitied. The ones left behind are no more pitiable than the tragic, lost, desperate soul who chose the unknown horrors of death because life was just too crushing and painful. Until you've been inside that person's head, you cannot say "they should have" or "they shouldn't have". Everyone is a victim.

 

[seeingeyes]

Really?

Really??

Shaking my head.

Yes. Really. He didn't think about whether his kids would walk in and find him or how his wife would feel scraping his damn brains off the floor.

I understand that his thought could have been "their better off without me" when considering suicide, but giving zero thought at all to how the act itself would affect his loved ones in an immediate way gives lie to that. He was not thinking about their best interests. Only his own.

 

[Inkachu]

...how his wife would feel scraping his damn brains off the floor.

This is how you refer to someone's deceased loved one...

I'm sorry, I can't be in this thread.

 

[Hetta]

nm

 

[WolfGate]

Suicide doesn't end pain - it just transfers it to those left behind.

I cannot fathom what it must feel like to think that death is the best alternative. Doesn't fit my life experience. So I can't judge.

We had a senior pastor who committed suicide. Left behind a family with young kids. Crushed his congregation. Church leadership had no clues that he was suicidal. Some in the congregation did know. Guilt remained for them.

I wouldn't want to ever guess wrong on if someone was serious or not.

 

[seeingeyes]

This is how you refer to someone's deceased loved one...

I'm sorry, I can't be in this thread.

I'm sorry if my wording is too harsh.

It's just that it's incredibly difficult to have sympathy for someone who had no regard for anyone but himself, even if mental illness was a factor.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

It depends on if someone makes drama because they want it. If they do then I pray for them and sometimes unfriend them. But if they have some sort of mental illness and it causes drama, then I realize they may not be 100% in control of how they act on FB.

I have one friend that had a very rough childhood and has mental issues from her past. I still have her on FB and pray for her because she continues to stray far away from her chrsitian roots and God.

On a side note, those who really want to kill themselves don't continually say they will. THey just do it often times and most are none the wiser. Where as those who think about suicide, but are afraid to often talk about it constantly and usually don't try it. Then there are those who just talk about it for dramas sake and attention.

When I was suicidal I was the middle person who talked about but often was to afraid to go through with it. Well except one time I did semi try but gave up from the pain. Point is in todays world of technology, suicide is a rough subject because of those who choose to abuse it for attention.