Moon was Created

thaumaturgy · Dec 28, 2007

AV1611VET said:
but I guess this is as close as I'm going to get to an honest answer from an atheist.

C'mon man! Don't accuse atheists of being inherent liars. STOP IT. That is bearing false witness, dude.

Let me try this on you:

"I suppose AV can be forgiven for violating one of the 10 Commandments, he IS a Christian."

Does that feel good? Honestly? Does it?

But, being a good Christian as you are, you also seem to still have real problems with the words of your lord and savior:

[BIBLE]Luke 6:31[/BIBLE]

"But I suppose you can be forgiven for violating Jesus' commands, you ARE a Christian."

Stop with the accusations. Really. If you see someone being dishonest, point it out. Otherwise keep your false witnesses to yourself.

MrGoodBytes · Dec 28, 2007

AV1611VET said:
[/list]
Your answer does not fit the question; but I guess this is as close as I'm going to get to an honest answer from an atheist.

In this case then, I submit that there is no evidence for the Creation; even though the Creation occurred as documented.

Indeed. Except the documentation never mentions embedded age.

Nathan Poe · Dec 28, 2007

AV1611VET said:
I suppose so --- by definition anyway.

So you're trying to prove Omphalos. We figured that out long ago, AV.

AV1611VET · Dec 28, 2007

thaumaturgy said:
C'mon man! Don't accuse atheists of being inherent liars. STOP IT. That is bearing false witness, dude.

Consider it stopped.

HerbieHeadley · Dec 28, 2007

thaumaturgy said:
C'mon man! Don't accuse atheists of being inherent liars. STOP IT. That is bearing false witness, dude.

Let me try this on you:

"I suppose AV can be forgiven for violating one of the 10 Commandments, he IS a Christian."

Does that feel good? Honestly? Does it?

But, being a good Christian as you are, you also seem to still have real problems with the words of your lord and savior:

[bible]Luke 6:31[/bible]

"But I suppose you can be forgiven for violating Jesus' commands, you ARE a Christian."

Stop with the accusations. Really. If you see someone being dishonest, point it out. Otherwise keep your false witnesses to yourself.

I believe when Jesus was asked he said (paraphrased) "Forgive Your Brother seven times seventy times".
However I say ("If the shoe fits".)

FishFace · Dec 28, 2007

dad said:
I think so, the man admitted as much! Look at the OP again, it's right in there. He said something about having his life affected so much, that he dedicated himself much much much more to Jesus. That is an effect. Now, looking at the effect, one should have some clue as to the cause.

Yeah, but why would you say spirits were the cause when there's no solid evidence for them, whereas we know that going to amazing places such as the moon, or other places on earth, can change one's life in exactly this way. You don't need to invoke a spirit.

A changed life has to count for something. The moon is known to have some influence historically on man. It doesn't make any sense, if all that is at work was a piece of rock up there. Spiritual effects need a spiritual cause.

Equivocation - a spiritual effect, in this case, "feeling spiritual" is not necessarily spiritual as in "belonging outside the physical realm." So no, it doesn't need a spiritual cause.

What kind of evidence do you want, science? Well, at the time of the moon landings, that was, I think, the height of man's science, or part of it. It was not some priests that claimed powerful influences there, it was men of science, or at least men of some science. If one is affected by gravity, one can deduce an object of some mass caused it. If one is affected by things spiritual, one deduces that spiritual things had to be behind it.
The spiritual source of the effect needed to be close at hand, since it was on the moon that the effect was strongest.

I went to Iceland and rode up to the top of Snæfellsness last summer - quite a spiritual experience. That, however, is because of the amazing view, the extreme quiet and the beauty of the place, nothing more. Guess what - the moon has an amazing view, it's quiet, and it's beautiful!

Fairy tale. In fact, it is an insult to intelligence.

I think you're going to have to give something to back that up there, seeing as some very intelligent people devised the theory!

The object almost as big as earth, I think it was, had to hit the earth just right, so as not to destroy everything, graze it just right, then go about poofing in all the right ways into a moon.

Uh, no, it slammed straight into it. Melted the earth's surface and knocking a load of it into orbit around the earth.
Of course, the theory's far from complete. But most importantly, it's the best we've got.

Abraham Lincoln didn't fly off into space. Relax.

Hmm. I notice you didn't provide any evidence that gravity was the same in the past.

Why is that?

Don't you think you would have a pretty life-changing experience if you landed on a whole new celestial body?

dlamberth · Dec 29, 2007

AV1611VET said:
[/list]
....... I guess this is as close as I'm going to get to an honest answer from an atheist.

.

dad · Dec 29, 2007

AV1611VET said:
Here it is --- once again:

I create an apple ex nihilo into the palm of your hand.

What evidence would you use to convince your friend I did this?

The friend would have no way of knowing.

dad · Dec 29, 2007

Frumious Bandersnatch said:
Not necessarily everything but your interpretation that that requires the earth to be 6,100 years old and puts a global flood less that 5000 years is wrong and your "different past" fantasies aren't even Biblical, just fantasies.

Have you heard of lifespans? Didn't Usher use them to come up with his dates, as well as everything else he could find?? Are you suggesting that those records are wrong??

God supposedly ordered this massacre of men, women, children, infants and even animals. The twisted apologetics that Biblical Literalists under take to try to explain away this atrocity are just an example of how Biblical literalism destroys rational thought.

Tough!! I say, God, go get em!!! Man, repent, or else. Pronto. Dig?

What part of repented don't you understand.

None of it. Why? I understand it all. Point?

dad · Dec 29, 2007

Frumious Bandersnatch said:
So it is an Omphalos Apple. It has the apearance of having grown on a tree but it didn't. You are able to deceive people into thinking it grew on a tree. This "challenge" shows that for all your protests you really do subsrcibe to the Omphalos hypothesis. It's nice that you have finally admited it.

I think he would be honest, and say it was just created. No need to remain deceived at all. How could you be deceived when told it was just created?

dad · Dec 29, 2007

Psudopod said:
[/size][/font]

No evidence for creation, fine. No problem. If there is no evidence, then we can only go with what we do have evidence for. The earth may well ahve been created 6000 years ago, but if it was, it was created with the appearence of having 4.6 billion years of history.

So it doesn't really matter if it was created 6000 years ago. We'll never get any useful understanding from that.

No, it does not appear that way at all, unless we look at it through a set of assumptions, that filter the picture terribly.

dad · Dec 29, 2007

FishFace said:
Yeah, but why would you say spirits were the cause when there's no solid evidence for them,

The real question is why would you be so silly as to look for solid spirits??? get a grip, man.

whereas we know that going to amazing places such as the moon, or other places on earth, can change one's life in exactly this way. You don't need to invoke a spirit.

But the moon seems to have had quite an impact on men, as history records, why? Why did the few men to walk on it get so impacted??? Since it was said to be spiritual, maybe we should look in that direction?? If we saw a crater on the moon, that caused an impact, would we not assume a physical object hit it!!??? Think about it.

Now, I have heard that some say that being Christian is like the dark ages. 'Oh, it is so against science...blah blah..' But so many of the men on the moon were Chritians!! One would have to look at the raw data here, and assume that the FIRST step to having a chance to go to the moon would be to become Christian!!! Then, we need to look at nations. If one wanted one's nation to be at the forefront of science, and knowledge, one would need a Christian nation!!! (As someone pointed out that the US was supposed to be).

Kids, want to go to the moon? Remember, that so many of the few were Christians!!! That is you first step!

Equivocation - a spiritual effect, in this case, "feeling spiritual" is not necessarily spiritual as in "belonging outside the physical realm." So no, it doesn't need a spiritual cause.

Saying some silly word doesn't make it so!

I went to Iceland and rode up to the top of Snæfellsness last summer - quite a spiritual experience. That, however, is because of the amazing view, the extreme quiet and the beauty of the place, nothing more. Guess what - the moon has an amazing view, it's quiet, and it's beautiful!

Like you know!!!!!???? Ha, you only went up a few feet compared to that!!!!

Uh, no, it slammed straight into it. Melted the earth's surface and knocking a load of it into orbit around the earth.
Of course, the theory's far from complete. But most importantly, it's the best we've got.

Right, the best you got is a group of wild speculations involving a same state past.

Hmm. I notice you didn't provide any evidence that gravity was the same in the past.

Well, maybe you could provide us with a list of those that went flying off the earth 200 years ago! Then we could look at your evidence.

Don't you think you would have a pretty life-changing experience if you landed on a whole new celestial body?

No. Dirt, I don't find exciting, especially in cold space.

FishFace · Dec 29, 2007

dad said:
The real question is why would you be so silly as to look for solid spirits??? get a grip, man.

No evidence? No argument.

But the moon seems to have had quite an impact on men, as history records, why? Why did the few men to walk on it get so impacted???

Because it is an amazing place. It would've been just the same wherever they'd gone in the solar system - Mars, for example would have been similarly amazing. The Moon has a special quality though because we can see it clearly from earth, and we can clearly see earth from it. Would you not finding it amazing, humbling, to see the entire planet below you?

Since it was said to be spiritual, maybe we should look in that direction??

Find some good evidence, and then maybe we should. At the moment all you have is worse than circumstantial - it's just bunkum.

Now, I have heard that some say that being Christian is like the dark ages. 'Oh, it is so against science...blah blah..' But so many of the men on the moon were Chritians!! One would have to look at the raw data here, and assume that the FIRST step to having a chance to go to the moon would be to become Christian!!!

Hey, most of the men in the US are Christians. If you want to become an American, should you become Christian? No, because correlation does not imply causation. In fact, wouldn't you be surprised if many of the astronauts weren't Christian? Since most of the source population was?

If one wanted one's nation to be at the forefront of science, and knowledge, one would need a Christian nation!!! (As someone pointed out that the US was supposed to be).

I guess that's why it was the Christian west that had the Dark Ages, while the Muslim East developed all kinds of bits of science.

Kids, want to go to the moon? Remember, that so many of the few were Christians!!! That is you first step!

Also note that they were caucasian males. I guess black girls need to have a sex change and use some strong makeup? This is your typical nonsense again, dad. Correlation does not imply causation.

Saying some silly word doesn't make it so!

Argument ended - I win again!

Like you know!!!!!???? Ha, you only went up a few feet compared to that!!!!

Indeed! How much better must the moon be - purely on a physical factor - height! You said it yourself! Height is one of the (purely physical) factors that almost certainly gave the men their feeling.
It would also explain why not everyone felt it - not everyone is going to feel the same about going somewhere amazing, but if a spirit wants to change you, presumably it just would.

Right, the best you got is a group of wild speculations involving a same state past.

It's not speculation if it explains the data we've got.

Well, maybe you could provide us with a list of those that went flying off the earth 200 years ago! Then we could look at your evidence.

Oops! You are assuming that gravity was the same 200 years ago, until I present you with evidence it was different!
You need to present evidence the past was different.

No. Dirt, I don't find exciting, especially in cold space.

So I, an atheist, can appreciate the "spiritual" qualities of something more than you, a fundie? Good grief, that's a rather poor show.

dad · Dec 29, 2007

FishFace said:
No evidence? No argument.

You even suggesting ther could be solid evidence, for spirits says you have no idea what you are talking about. Science can't go there.

Because it is an amazing place. It would've been just the same wherever they'd gone in the solar system - Mars, for example would have been similarly amazing.

Nope. That is your opinion, which is based on ignorance. Not knowledge. No one has been to Mars. You seem to feel guessing allows you to speak as if you knew what it was you were talking about! No.

The Moon has a special quality though because we can see it clearly from earth, and we can clearly see earth from it. Would you not finding it amazing, humbling, to see the entire planet below you?

If earth were my footstool, that might be a kick.

Find some good evidence, and then maybe we should. At the moment all you have is worse than circumstantial - it's just bunkum.

The evidences of a spiritual impact are as plain as the nose on your face, fishface.

Hey, most of the men in the US are Christians. If you want to become an American, should you become Christian? No, because correlation does not imply causation. In fact, wouldn't you be surprised if many of the astronauts weren't Christian? Since most of the source population was?

Yes, but I don't have to be, since they were. So, ..deal with it as it is, not as you dream it to be.

I guess that's why it was the Christian west that had the Dark Ages, while the Muslim East developed all kinds of bits of science.

The world has the dark ages as we speak, it is the darkest of the ages of man. Even so, it was not Muslims on the moon. Fancy that. Nor Jews, by the way.

Also note that they were caucasian males. I guess black girls need to have a sex change and use some strong makeup? This is your typical nonsense again, dad. Correlation does not imply causation.

No. Going to the moon does not depend on make up, or skin. I simply look at the actual facts. A lot of them really were Christian.

Indeed! How much better must the moon be - purely on a physical factor - height! You said it yourself! Height is one of the (purely physical) factors that almost certainly gave the men their feeling.

Not at all! It is the limiting factor, that makes you unable to know what it is you are talking about, when going on about the moon, just because you mounted a molehill! Face it, fishface.

It would also explain why not everyone felt it - not everyone is going to feel the same about going somewhere amazing, but if a spirit wants to change you, presumably it just would.

Well, spirits tend to influence, rather than possess, although that does happen.

It's not speculation if it explains the data we've got.

Yes it is, if it only explains it by faith! Other myths can do that as well.

Oops! You are assuming that gravity was the same 200 years ago, until I present you with evidence it was different!
You need to present evidence the past was different.

The past I refer to is before there was recorded observation. Learn the difference.

So I, an atheist, can appreciate the "spiritual" qualities of something more than you, a fundie? Good grief, that's a rather poor show.

Wake up call, here. You never went to the moon. Focus.

Frumious Bandersnatch · Dec 29, 2007

dad said:
Have you heard of lifespans? Didn't Usher use them to come up with his dates, as well as everything else he could find?? Are you suggesting that those records are wrong??

Of course they are just made up. Nobody ever lived 900 years. But that aside where in the Bible does it say that there are spirits in the moon? Where does it say that there were very different physical laws that flip-flopped around however you think you need them to to fit you fantasy until 100 years after the flood? Where does it say that there was No Gravity before the flood?

Tough!! I say, God, go get em!!! Man, repent, or else. Pronto. Dig?

Right you are into revenge fantasies carried out by your vicious, revengfull, jealous God just like many other Biblical literalists.

None of it. Why? I understand it all. Point?

So you understand repented. If God repented of his creation it means his creation was a mistake. Your supposedly omnipotent and omniscient God blundered and repented of it.

AV1611VET · Dec 29, 2007

dad said:
I think he would be honest, and say it was just created. No need to remain deceived at all. How could you be deceived when told it was just created?

That's pretty bad when you create an apple ex nihilo right into the palm of someone's hand, and that someone claims it grew on a tree because said apple has a stem in it! I think some people want to be deceived.

FishFace · Dec 29, 2007

dad said:
You even suggesting ther could be solid evidence, for spirits says you have no idea what you are talking about. Science can't go there.

No evidence? No argument.

Nope. That is your opinion, which is based on ignorance. Not knowledge. No one has been to Mars. You seem to feel guessing allows you to speak as if you knew what it was you were talking about! No.

I've been to plenty of places that instill me and others with a feeling that seems exactly like what the astronauts experienced. That feeling is brought on by any amazing place, of which Mars would qualify. There's no need to use spirits to explain anything.

If earth were my footstool, that might be a kick.

Answer the question.

The evidences of a spiritual impact are as plain as the nose on your face, fishface.

Are they really? So what distinguishes a spiritual impact from a psychological, but nonetheless physical impact?

Yes, but I don't have to be, since they were. So, ..deal with it as it is, not as you dream it to be.

I've dealt with that one fine, thank you very much - the astronauts being Christian is explained perfectly by the population of the US.

The world has the dark ages as we speak, it is the darkest of the ages of man. Even so, it was not Muslims on the moon. Fancy that. Nor Jews, by the way.

So? There are plenty of things in, medicine, say, which were discovered by the Muslim world long before anyone else found out about them. We found out, in fact, by going and asking, not by doing it ourselves.
You can't argue that scientific prowess indicates the correct religion unless you're going to convert.

No. Going to the moon does not depend on make up, or skin. I simply look at the actual facts. A lot of them really were Christian.

But going to the moon, just as it does not depend on your skin colour, does not depend on your religion. Thanks.

Not at all! It is the limiting factor, that makes you unable to know what it is you are talking about, when going on about the moon, just because you mounted a molehill! Face it, fishface.

If I can experience a spiritual feeling on a mountain, then spirits are not needed for a spiritual feeling, unless there were spirits in the mountain too. Were there?
The difference is one of magnitude - the moon is higher, more amazing, more serene, more humbling. All of those factors contribute to the greater experience. But they are physical factors.

Well, spirits tend to influence, rather than possess, although that does happen.

But your supposed spirits didn't influence everyone. Why not? I can understand perfectly how not everyone would appreciate the humbling aspect of going to the moon, but if a spirit wants to influence you, why wouldn't it?

Yes it is, if it only explains it by faith! Other myths can do that as well.

There is no such thing as an explanation by faith. It is an explanation based on the available data. That means it isn't speculation - which is just a guess.

The past I refer to is before there was recorded observation. Learn the difference.

So? Just because 200 years ago had people writing in it isn't evidence that gravity behaved just the same as it does now, is it? You assume that gravity behaved the same.

Wake up call, here. You never went to the moon. Focus.

Nope, but you're the one admitting you find it more difficult to have a spiritual experience than an atheist! Haha!

Frumious Bandersnatch · Dec 29, 2007

AV1611VET said:
That's pretty bad when you create an apple ex nihilo right into the palm of someone's hand, and that someone claims it grew on a tree because said apple has a stem in it! I think some people want to be deceived.

Perhaps, but if said apple not only has a stem but a bruise on the side and a worm hole and a sticker on the side that says Washington delicious and has been waxed then you might not be surprised that people think you are pulling a fast one, especially if they didn't see you create it but only read a second hand account by someone who claims that you created the apple and dictated the account to them.

BTW I have known people who could apparently create things ex nihilo in your closed hand.

trivista · Dec 29, 2007

AV1611VET said:
That's pretty bad when you create an apple ex nihilo right into the palm of someone's hand, and that someone claims it grew on a tree because said apple has a stem in it! I think some people want to be deceived.

Yes, yes they do.

AV1611VET · Dec 29, 2007

Frumious Bandersnatch said:
BTW I have known people who could apparently create things ex nihilo in your closed hand.

Ya --- apparently --- that's the keyword - (and major difference).

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