Molinism

[Benefactor]

Post this please. I believe it is a flat out lie - prove me wrong.

Yes, I will, just give me a few min. to find it.

YouTube - (Pt1) God's Sovereignty and Man's Free Will

The comments start around "200" on the time line.

 

[nobdysfool]

I believe there is a fundamental refusal of Calvinism to own the flaws of its theological construct.

That doesn't answer my question.

If you think there are flaws, point them out. But don't use straw men, and outright falsehoods as points, because they don't count. You have to correctly state what Calvinism teaches, and then show why you disagree.

Remember, no straw men, no outright falsehoods. Tell us what you think Calvinism gets wrong, from real honest, verifiably accurate Calvinist teaching, not what you think Calvinism teaches, or what you've been told Calvinism teaches by a non-Calvinist. You should be able to demonstrate that you understand the teaching, even if you disagree with it. That also means that you will need to use the terminology as we use it, not your own interpretation of it, or reinterpretation of it.

In other words you're going to have to bring the ball to our court to put it in play.

 

[Benefactor]

That should be posted as a sticky at the head of this forum. It is a true statement, which, unfortunately hasn't been adhered to by the opponents of Calvinism....

What do you see as untrue?

Why is it untrue to you?

Where are the facts to support your view that will without bias stand as "REAL FACTS" such as 2+2 = 4. Can you produce that kind of proof that your view is that solid.

Is it not true that you hold to theological and philosophical constructs as do most if not all theologies. Dr. Steve admits it by saying that Calvinism distinguishes between Calvinistic Logic and Biblical Temporal Order, pertaining to Order of Salvation.

 

[nobdysfool]

What do you see as untrue?

Why is it untrue to you?

Where are the facts to support your view that will without bias stand as "REAL FACTS" such as 2+2 = 4. Can you produce that kind of proof that your view is that solid.

Is it not true that you hold to theological and philosophical constructs as do most if not all theologies. Dr. Steve admits it by saying that Calvinism distinguishes between Calvinistic Logic and Biblical Temporal Order, pertaining to Order of Salvation.

What part of the quote I was commenting on are you having trouble with? Is it not a true statement?

As for the questions you ask, when terminology is misused, misinterpreted, and mistranslated, discussion fails. We Calvinists have provided plenty of proof for our views, and what we have often seen is misrepresentation of our views, assumptions of things we have never said and do not believe, as well as twisted and distorted versions of what we have said we believe. You certainly cannot expect us to accept such things. The truth is, we spend more time trying to correct the false statements, twisted statements, and outright falsehoods being posted about our beliefs that we do actually talking about what we do believe, because there is this constant assault on our beliefs, basically trying to shout us down, and drown out our voices with the sheer volume of wrong information. You claim that we have not provided proof, when the truth is, we haven't been allowed to provide the proof, due to all the lies being posted faster than we can answer them. And I think that's been the end-game all along.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, I will, just give me a few min. to find it.

YouTube - (Pt1) God's Sovereignty and Man's Free Will

The comments start around "200" on the time line.

Nowhere does Dr. White say that God causes men to sin. You may retract your statement now.

 

[Benefactor]

What part of the quote I was commenting on are you having trouble with? Is it not a true statement?

As for the questions you ask, when terminology is misused, misinterpreted, and mistranslated, discussion fails. We Calvinists have provided plenty of proof for our views, and what we have often seen is misrepresentation of our views, assumptions of things we have never said and do not believe, as well as twisted and distorted versions of what we have said we believe. You certainly cannot expect us to accept such things. The truth is, we spend more time trying to correct the false statements, twisted statements, and outright falsehoods being posted about our beliefs that we do actually talking about what we do believe, because there is this constant assault on our beliefs, basically trying to shout us down, and drown out our voices with the sheer volume of wrong information. You claim that we have not provided proof, when the truth is, we haven't been allowed to provide the proof, due to all the lies being posted faster than we can answer them. And I think that's been the end-game all along.

Thank you for your NO answer.

 

[nobdysfool]

Thank you for your NO answer.

Oh, I answered your questions, just not in the way you wanted....

 

[Benefactor]

YouTube - Divine Foreknowledge and Human Freedom - William Lane Craig#!

 

[Benefactor]

YouTube - Divine Providence Discussion (Part 1 of 2)

YouTube - Divine Providence Discussion (Part 2 of 2)

Regardless of your view most will appricate the informaion I hope.

 

[Hammster]

He says God is the one who raped a woman by decree and there is no purpose unless God rapes a woman by decree.

no, he did not say that. To insist that he did makes you a liar.

 

[Hammster]

God decrees by foreknowing our free choice. The god of Calvinism can't do this.

James White is not saved.

God decrees or predestintes by foreknownig our free choice.

The god of Calvinism decrees or predestinates by irresistibly imposing (making people do stuff), not giving the person the choice.

The word "decree" is so vague, just distinquish God can decree or predestinate by foreknowing our free choice. He doesn't have to predestinate or decree by irresistibly imposing, not giving the person the choice and sending people to Hell without any grace to have any opportunity to be saved. What love is that?

I suspected that you knew little about Calvinism. You've now verified my suspicion.

 

[Benefactor]

'When a child is raped is God responsible and did He decree that rape?[Answer located at (time 2:15) If He didn’t then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose…… Question: What is your answer? (time 2:36) “white said” I mentioned to him yes…………………. “white said God” Decreed the rape (time2:55) “has meaning and purpose”

Source is the Utube video above concerning "white's" comments




'based upon this u-tube video white believes that God decreed that a man raped a girl. This then means that white believe that all rapist how violate women and sometime kill, scar for life is caused by God, this is clearly what white said and believes.

The places where "white" states or accuses God of decreeing that men rape women are indicated by the time line location in parenthesis.

 

[Benefactor]

Molinism does not agree with the evil views of double predestination as taught by "white" and believed by "white"

There are many common sense Calvinist who do not believe this making God more responsible for evil that Satan.

In such a view Satan is only doing God's will because he is decreed to do evil.

Molinism, most Calvinism I would think, OSAS Arminians, Arminians and others outside this radical position I am convinced condemn it as I do.

 

[heymikey80]

Yes, I will, just give me a few min. to find it.

YouTube - (Pt1) God's Sovereignty and Man's Free Will

The comments start around "200" on the time line.

It's now missing an argument -- again -- that God is thus responsible for authoring everything that happens under His decree.

So what was White's answer, when he was cut off? "One man's answer seems good until another comes to review it."

Westminster itself says God ordains whatever comes to pass, so the facts of criminal actions occurring is indeed ordained for redemptive good by God in Calvinism. But through the decree of all things, God isn't forcing evil to be evil -- evil is evil just fine on its own.

 

[nobdysfool]

Well, I'm not going to defend White on this or anything else. I don't base what I believe on what someone else says, even if I were to agree with them. So trying to pursue the rabbit trail of trying to Get Calvinists to defend White is a distraction.

Trying to paint all Calvinists with the same broad brush is a fallacious tactic. No one is perfect, and no one is 100% correct in every word that comes out of their mouth, or off of their keyboards. Before people start pointing fingers and condemning others, what secret sin do you harbor that you desperately hope no one else finds out? The one who says he has none is a liar.

 

[Hammster]

'When a child is raped is God responsible and did He decree that rape?[Answer located at (time 2:15) If He didn’t then that rape is an element of meaningless evil that has no purpose…… Question: What is your answer? (time 2:36) “white said” I mentioned to him yes…………………. “white said God” Decreed the rape (time2:55) “has meaning and purpose”

Source is the Utube video above concerning "white's" comments




'based upon this u-tube video white believes that God decreed that a man raped a girl. This then means that white believe that all rapist how violate women and sometime kill, scar for life is caused by God, this is clearly what white said and believes.

The places where "white" states or accuses God of decreeing that men rape women are indicated by the time line location in parenthesis.

So Dr. White DIDN'T say that God caused the rape? Thanks for the retraction.

 

[Easystreet]

no, he did not say that. To insist that he did makes you a liar.

Instead of calling people liars explain why the statement to you is not as you say it is. Are you without words to explain exactly what is stated by white about God?

Question Hammster:

When God decrees a thing, that you will fish to day, will you fist today and is God the cause of you going fishing today?

Yes or No

Also,

When God decrees thing, in this case (man x to rape girly y), that man x will rape girl y today, will man x rape girl y today and is God the cause of man x raping girly y today.

Both examples are what white is tells us in the U-tube video and accusing God of and hold as true himself.

Do you deny this?

Yes or No

 

[Hammster]

Molinism does not agree with the evil views of double predestination as taught by "white" and believed by "white"

Where do you find Dr. White ever promoting double predestination? Is that all you have now? Lying about what other Christians say? It probably makes your new buddy happy, but it is quite pathetic.

 

[nobdysfool]

The thrust of this little distraction is clear: by getting people to agree that Dr. White is wrong, it will then be extrapolated that because Dr. White, a self-confessed Calvinist, is wrong, ALL Calvinists are wrong.

Logical fallacy in the extreme. Dr. White alone is responsible for the words he says, right or wrong. No one else is or can be blamed or condemned for his words.

 

[nobdysfool]

And, I'm also wondering what this has to do with the false doctrine of Molinism?