Molinism

[drstevej]

Where is the Scriptural evidence that God used this knowledge to create a world which would result in the most people saved?

I think it is in Candide (Chapter 1) by Voltaire

Master Pangloss taught the metaphysico-theologo-cosmolonigology. He could prove to admiration that there is no effect without a cause; and, that in this best of all possible worlds, the Baron's castle was the most magnificent of all castles, and My Lady the best of all possible baronesses.

"It is demonstrable," said he, "that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end. Observe, for instance, the nose is formed for spectacles, therefore we wear spectacles. The legs are visibly designed for stockings, accordingly we wear stockings. Stones were made to be hewn and to construct castles, therefore My Lord has a magnificent castle; for the greatest baron in the province ought to be the best lodged. Swine were intended to be eaten, therefore we eat pork all the year round: and they, who assert that everything is right, do not express themselves correctly; they should say that everything is best."

 

[Benefactor]

Calvinism in ignoring the order of salvation in the Bible must go a Calvinistic Logic to come up with something that supports their view. You won't find their order of salvation in the Scripture no they must appeal to a "Calvinistic Logic" to conclude that salvation is the reverse that is revealed in Scripture

The only "ISM" that does not follow the Order of Salvation as laid out in Scripture is Calvanism.

Molinism, Arminianism, even Moderate Calvinist (technically not Calvinist) don't either.

 

[Benefactor]

More pure Bible Teaching:

Third, the Bible does not merely present faith as the evidence of regeneration or effectual call but as the condition to receiving salvation.

Salvation is by faith. Therefore, regeneration cannot precede conversion, for regeneration is the beginning of eternal life (i.e., salvation), and faith, along with repentance, is a component of conversion. When Calvinist such as Sproul Sr. argues that regeneration leads to conversion, they reverse what the Scriptures actually say.

Scripture repeatedly presents the benefits of Christ as contingent and conditioned on faith. For example, in Rom 5:18-19 Paul teaches both universal depravity and universal atonement. He contrasts Adam and Christ byh saying, “So then, as though one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone. For just as through one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.” Paul teaches that Christ atoned for those who have fallen in Adam – which is everyone. So why isn’t Paul a Universalist? Because in the preceding verse he declares that there is a condition for receiving salvation – the condition of faith.”

Pages 119 "Salvation and Sovereignty A Molinist Approach" Keathely

Dr.Keathley a Southern Baptist and Professor of Scripture and a PhD and dean of Graduate Studies at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest , North Carolina.

 

[DeaconDean]

More pure Bible Teaching:

Third, the Bible does not merely present faith as the evidence of regeneration or effectual call but as the condition to receiving salvation.

Salvation is by faith. Therefore, regeneration cannot precede conversion, for regeneration is the beginning of eternal life (i.e., salvation), and faith, along with repentance, is a component of conversion. When Calvinist such as Sproul Sr. argues that regeneration leads to conversion, they reverse what the Scriptures actually say.

Scripture repeatedly presents the benefits of Christ as contingent and conditioned on faith. For example, in Rom 5:18-19 Paul teaches both universal depravity and universal atonement. He contrasts Adam and Christ byh saying, “So then, as though one trespass there is condemnation for everyone, so also through one righteous act there is life-giving justification for everyone. For just as through one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so also through the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.” Paul teaches that Christ atoned for those who have fallen in Adam – which is everyone. So why isn’t Paul a Universalist? Because in the preceding verse he declares that there is a condition for receiving salvation – the condition of faith.”

Pages 119 "Salvation and Sovereignty A Molinist Approach" Keathely

Dr.Keathley a Southern Baptist and Professor of Scripture and a PhD and dean of Graduate Studies at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest , North Carolina.

How about some scriptures to prove this and Dr. Keathely's claim?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[drstevej]

Salvation is by faith. Therefore, regeneration cannot precede conversion,

You just are not listening to what we are saying and persist in setting up straw men to swat at. It may satisfy you, but it doesn't lay a glove on historical Calvinism.

Your predisposition against what you think Calvinism teaches results in your inability to listen to people who are actual Calvinists.

That's understandable, I was that way for a year or so too.

If you will listen you might understand what Calvinists actually believe and avoid posts that are misdirected.

So instead of this middle knowledge and muddled knowledge about Calvinism, why not gain some historical insight and see what we actually believe?

drstevej

 

[heymikey80]

Calvinism in ignoring the order of salvation in the Bible must go a Calvinistic Logic to come up with something that supports their view. You won't find their order of salvation in the Scripture no they must appeal to a "Calvinistic Logic" to conclude that salvation is the reverse that is revealed in Scripture

Calvinism in seeking and finding an order to the graces of salvation in the Bible reformed its theology to conform with that order. You'll find that order of salvation in Scripture. Logic is simply logic. The variation in Calvinism is based on sensitivity to how the Greek actually states things, that not everything is cause & effect in Scripture.

The only "ISM" that does not follow the Order of Salvation as laid out in Scripture is Calvanism.

Other theologies make claims that contradict certain assertions of Scripture. And they don't have an answer to the obvious weaknesses they propose. Most merge together disparate words like "regeneration" and "salvation", or "justification" and salvation". In the fusion the statement of Scripture is confused.

Molinism, Arminianism, even Moderate Calvinist (technically not Calvinist) don't either.

A "moderate drinker" is not a teetotaler. Geisler is clearly in error in his own identification of himself. That impeaches a great deal in his issues with Calvinism. He doesn't distinguish between Calvinism and anti-Calvinism when it's staring him in a mirror.

 

[Benefactor]

You just are not listening to what we are saying and persist in setting up straw men to swat at. It may satisfy you, but it doesn't lay a glove on historical Calvinism.

Your predisposition against what you think Calvinism teaches results in your inability to listen to people who are actual Calvinists.

That's understandable, I was that way for a year or so too.

If you will listen you might understand what Calvinists actually believe and avoid posts that are misdirected.

So instead of this middle knowledge and muddled knowledge about Calvinism, why not gain some historical insight and see what we actually believe?

drstevej

Dr. Steave what is my grade for the following sir.

Calvinism order of salvation
(1) Calling limited to the special picked not to exceed 49.99 percent of all humanity from A to Z
(2) Regeneration, anothen, born from above
(3) Conversion by faith and repentance
(4) Justification by faith
(5) Adoption as son’s and dauther’s of the kingdom
(6) Sanctification
(7) Glorification

If I were grading me
1 is wrong because it is not limited
2 is wrong because you can't get sved to get saved
3 is wrong wron becaues faith and repentance according to God comes first
4. is wrong because the others are wrong
5. is wrong because the others are wrong
6. is wrong becaue the others are wrong
7. is wrong because the others are wrong.

So I give my answer a "0"

Now my dear brother in Christ, many a folk are wrong and saved. Just because you hold to an order that is not in the Bible does not mean you are not saved. Why millions of people get saved and don't have a clue about this or that theology. I did not understand the correct view that I hold until after I read my Bible. So no Dr. Stave don't ever think we non Calvinist think you are Savingly Lost, no you are lost in this regard your theologically, that is a BIG difference that is why you are Calvinism and I am not.

 

[Hammster]

Calling limited to the special picked not to exceed 49.99 percent of all humanity from A to Z

Fail. For someone who seems to have a grasp of Keathley's book, and who has said he has read books by Calvinists, you still don't really seem to get it. Somewhere there is a huge disconnect. And I just don't get it.

 

[DeaconDean]

All I have got to say is that the OP admitted that they went away and studied another "theology".

While willing to give up completely the Arminian pathway, they instead lay hold of Molinism.

Which has been proven to be Roman Catholic Jesuitism at its root.

As far as I'm concerned, James said it best:

"A double minded man is unstable in all his ways." -Jas. 1:8 (KJV)

Like a ship on the ocean without a rudder, tossed to and fro.

Going from one theology to the next.

I am expecting this member to fully embrace "Open Thesim" next.

Why do we even bother?

He is responsible for his teaching. Its wrong, we all know it, it can't be proven from scripture.

And they are going to bear the full burden of their actions.

And not only their actions, but those whom they decive into believing this. (Molinism)

James also says:

"My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." -Jas. 3:1 (KJV)

He bears the full weight of teaching wrong. And he bears the weight of those he taught wrong, and those whom taught wrong after his teaching.

I'm done.

God BLess

Till all are one.

 

[Benefactor]

The Bible Order of Salvation
1. You must first exist as lost son/daughter of Adam and Eve“for God so love everyone (the world)
2. Jesus enlightens everyone that is born into this world John 1:9 and calls on these souls to repent Acts 17 and we know that repent means to believe too.
3. Those that repent and believe like the woman in Luke 7:50 are automatically SAVED. When one is saved that person is described as receiving “the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, justified, place into the body of Christ, became a new creature in Christ, converted, positional sanctified, received the spirit of adoption as we eagerly wait for our adoption.
4. Glorification either at physical death or the rapture, which is 7 years before the 2nd coming or if a person is saved in the tribulation and killed it will be at that time or if you are left an still physically alive as a Believer at the second coming you will get to live a long time in the 1000 year kingdom, but if you are a member of the Church and tribulation saints you will come back with Christ to rule and reign. All sinners at the second coming are sent to hell and await the great white thrown judgment at the end of the 1k kingdom. All living saved at that time just walk right in to Glory as they are instantly change at that time. Some may out live Methuselah.

 

[drstevej]

Dr. Steave what is my grade for the following sir. [/COLOR]

F (and you did not lose points for misspelling my name).

 

[Benefactor]

F (and you did not lose points for misspelling my name).

Then I would be in the hole not just dead "0" Dr. Steave without the a

Well it is an outline by a Calvinist. I have maintained that the pantry is full of Calvinist versions of OS. What is yours? Why, it may be better to take all the versions of versions of Calvinism and just blend them together and see if fate deals a better hand. Why, it is amazing how what is determined is so hard to figure out. Maybe it is a riddle that has not been solved and everyone is claiming that they have it but the master has not yet said; the winner is the blue team or the red team or something like that.

 

[heymikey80]

Dr. Steave what is my grade for the following sir.

(2) Regeneration, anothen, born from above

If I were grading me

2 is wrong because you can't get sved to get saved

Talk about begging the question -- interpreting Titus 3:5 as has been done by this poster as "defining" salvation means that Paul gets the "wrong" grade from Benefactor, because Titus 3:5's reduced by Benefactor to saying "get saved to get saved".

 

[nobdysfool]

All this is, is intentional misrepresentation. It is baiting and goading. The Calvinist view has been explained enough times that there can be no claim by the OP of ignorance of it. The fact that it is repeated back by the OP in such a distorted fashion is not from lack of understanding, but refusal to be corrected. It seems evident that other flavors of theology are examined and embraced on the basis of their stand vis-a-vis Calvinism. Thus, the end-game of the OP in all these forays into theology is to degrade, cast aspersions on, and eliminate Calvinism from the discussion.

 

[Benefactor]

All this is, is intentional misrepresentation. It is baiting and goading. The Calvinist view has been explained enough times that there can be no claim by the OP of ignorance of it. The fact that it is repeated back by the OP in such a distorted fashion is not from lack of understanding, but refusal to be corrected. It seems evident that other flavors of theology are examined and embraced on the basis of their stand vis-a-vis Calvinism. Thus, the end-game of the OP in all these forays into theology is to degrade, cast aspersions on, and eliminate Calvinism from the discussion.

Do you deny that there is more than one form of Calvinism?
Extreme Supra
Supra - Beza
Infra Reformed
Infra Medieval version Anselm
Sub - Strong

Facts are real your false accusation are just that FALSE. Deal with the topic. Do you have a view, share it and explain why you believe the way you do. If you want to point out your reason for not believe how I believe do that, why falsely accuse me? You do not know my intent. Lighten up and enjoy the conversation. Defend your view. Lay of the personal stuff, I am not out to get you. I see Calvinism as I explain it, are saying I cannot have those views and convictions based upon how I see, read it, perceive it, etc.?

Now lay out your personal order of salvation and you and I can discuss it, OK.

 

[Benefactor]

F (and you did not lose points for misspelling my name).

OK Doc. what version, or version of version of Calvinism do you hold?

 

[drstevej]

OK Doc. what version, or version of version of Calvinism do you hold?

I am a T-U-_-I-P Calvinist
aka Christmas Calvinist
aka Amyraldian

And I am an infralapsarian

 

[Benefactor]

I am a T-U-_-I-P Calvinist
aka Christmas Calvinist
aka Amyraldian

And I am an infralapsarian

OK, your OS

A lot of my profs were you/he they infra Christians.

Dallas types: How close am I in this understanding?

Never did know where Dr. WG Johnston was in his views, he is retired now (Ex. VP Dallas Seminary - I think in finances) and was the President of Detroit Bible College /William Tyndale College later. No Longer in Existence

 

[drstevej]

I have met Wendel but have not discussed theology with him.

OK, your OS

Sorry, you are not authorized to be my spokes person. (Readers disregard the link.)

A lot of my profs were you/he they infra Christians.

What the heck does that mean?????

Dallas types: How close am I in this understanding?

You have a ways to go before you reach clueless.

 

[Benefactor]

I have met Wendel but have not discussed theology with him.



Sorry, you are not authorized to be my spokes person. (Readers disregard the link.)



What the heck does that mean?????



You have a ways to go before you reach clueless.

Interesting - where is all this going?