Mohammad and Discerning

[Amir]

Do you know if Mohammad could discern between alshaitan (the devil) almala’eka (the angels) and Allah? Could he tell the difference? Who might have told him what? Did he know who that was that told him whatever? How accurate a discerner was he? How many times has a “being” appeared to him, and did he recognize the “being” accurately? And so on.

If you know, please share.


PS This is to see what you think or know of this, not because I need information.

 

[Adeeb]

Do you know if Mohammad could discern between alshaitan (the devil) almala’eka (the angels) and Allah? Could he tell the difference? Who might have told him what? Did he know who that was that told him whatever? How accurate a discerner was he? How many times has a “being” appeared to him, and did he recognize the “being” accurately? And so on.

If you know, please share.


PS This is to see what you think or know of this, not because I need information.

Do you know if Paul could distinguish between the devil and Jesus? How do you know Paul actually met Jesus on that road?

 

[Amir]

No sidetracking please. You can discuss this in the other forums. Start a thread about this and it'll be answered there, not here.

Thank you

 

[Bookofknowledge]

Do you know if Mohammad could discern between alshaitan (the devil) almala’eka (the angels) and Allah? Could he tell the difference? Who might have told him what? Did he know who that was that told him whatever? How accurate a discerner was he? How many times has a “being” appeared to him, and did he recognize the “being” accurately? And so on.

If you know, please share.


PS This is to see what you think or know of this, not because I need information.

Since you have created this thread I would like to ask you this question - are you a person who has the ability to utilize human understanding before answering my post?

If you don't have this ability I don't want to waste my time... Please confirm, so I can begin.

 

[Amir]

Hmm, ability to utilize human understanding? No problem. Whatever will make you reply.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

Hmm, ability to utilize human understanding? No problem. Whatever will make you reply.

Do you believe there is a creation who knows more then The Knowledge of the Creator?

Do you believe Satan will guide mankind towards righteousness? and being good to others?

Do you believe God will punish an innocent person for the crime of others?

 

[arunma]

Do you know if Paul could distinguish between the devil and Jesus? How do you know Paul actually met Jesus on that road?

It is noteworthy that while the blessed Apostle Paul taught us to love our neighbors, Mohammad taught Muslims to slay the infidels. If Paul did not properly recognize the Lord, then neither did the other Apostles, because they all taught a consistent message.

 

[TheListener]

Do you know if Paul could distinguish between the devil and Jesus? How do you know Paul actually met Jesus on that road?

In other words you don't want to answer a perfectly valid question?

 

[peaceful soul]

originally posted by Bookofknowledge

Do you believe there is a creation who knows more then The Knowledge of the Creator?

No, but that doesn't answer the OP.

Do you believe Satan will guide mankind towards righteousness? and being good to others?

Yes. He does it to mislead people away from God. Isn't that what you think of others that don't believe in Islam and the Qu'ran? The righteousness of satan is a pseudo righteousness that is based on human will and not God's will. Islam is a prime example of this since it creates a false idea that our good works really matter to God when the Bible shows that our personal works are worthless to a perfect God. There is nothing that we can offer God that He isn't already perfect in. Our righteousness comes through our deliverence from our own flesh which tries to emulate a righteousness equaled to God's. That is why we think of our works as pleasing to God and somehow put us on good terms or on good footing with Him. It simply doesn't work that way.

Islam falsely impresses that legislating morality makes a person moral before God. If the heart of man is not changed, his outward obedience to moral standards contrived by culture, religion, and whatever does not change his status before a perfect and uncompromising God. You are still a sinner in need of salvation from your own flesh which consumes you. Satan knows this and can spiritually mislead one to think that logically he (satan) can not lead one to do good things. The misunderstanding of this is that the "good" things are not "godly" things. There lies the difference.

Satan is not some creature that only entices you to do something obviously bad and evil. He is cleaver in disguising himself in what may seem like good situations only to have your mind occupied by those things while you are equating your pragmatic results with God's righteousness and perfection. One of the most devicive misleadings of satan is to get Muslims to think that the Qur'an must be from God simply because it warns its adherents about satan and warning them not to follow him. Only if you knew what the Bible taught about that, you would sober up a bit and smell the coffee. The Qur'an does not understand the deeper spiritual things of God, as the Bible demonstrates when read and apply in its context on spiritual terms.

Do you believe God will punish an innocent person for the crime of others?

I assume you are referring to Jesus' sacrafice for humanity. If so, you do not understand the Bible's message on that matter. It is not surprising since you ignore any Biblical reference that points out that Jesus was on a much higher spiritual plane than Mohammad could ever imagine, given that Mohammad got his knowledge and understanding of Christ from corrupted sources - heretics of Christianity who he came in contact with in his lifetime. Yet, you will not believe that is the case. Too bad for you!

 

[TrevorKamal]

Yes. He does it to mislead people away from God. Isn't that what you think of others that don't believe in Islam and the Qu'ran? The righteousness of satan is a pseudo righteousness that is based on human will and not God's will. Islam is a prime example of this since it creates a false idea that our good works really matter to God when the Bible shows that our personal works are worthless to a perfect God. There is nothing that we can offer God that He isn't already perfect in. Our righteousness comes through our deliverence from our own flesh which tries to emulate a righteousness equaled to God's. That is why we think of our works as pleasing to God and somehow put us on good terms or on good footing with Him. It simply doesn't work that way.

Can you better explain what you mean here? It sounds like you're saying that A) Satan tricks people by getting them to be good and B) God doesn't care if you're good or not.

Islam falsely impresses that legislating morality makes a person moral before God. If the heart of man is not changed, his outward obedience to moral standards contrived by culture, religion, and whatever does not change his status before a perfect and uncompromising God.

I agree that you can't force inner morality through legislation but i'm not so sure that's what is intended by Islam even if most Muslim countries seem to think so. It's worth noting that many Christian countries believe this to some degree as well. God has been sendnig down rules for us to live by in our societies for quite some time now.

You are still a sinner in need of salvation from your own flesh which consumes you. Satan knows this and can spiritually mislead one to think that logically he (satan) can not lead one to do good things. The misunderstanding of this is that the "good" things are not "godly" things. There lies the difference.

I'm getting confused about your opinions again here. Are you saying that good things aren't godly? If God is good (and i think we can all agree that He is) then good things are God's way. If satan were to start doing good things and getting other people to do good things then he would essentially be joining God's side and doing things His way. If we don't recognize this, we would be saying that in essence Christianity is just a "club" and what you do doesn't matter as long as you join the club and swear allegiance to it's leaders and you'll get hooked up in the afterlife.

Satan is not some creature that only entices you to do something obviously bad and evil. He is cleaver in disguising himself in what may seem like good situations only to have your mind occupied by those things while you are equating your pragmatic results with God's righteousness and perfection.

They way I've always read it is that Satan DOES entice you to do bad things he just appeals to your selfish side and your earthly passions and desires.

One of the most devicive misleadings of satan is to get Muslims to think that the Qur'an must be from God simply because it warns its adherents about satan and warning them not to follow him. Only if you knew what the Bible taught about that, you would sober up a bit and smell the coffee. The Qur'an does not understand the deeper spiritual things of God, as the Bible demonstrates when read and apply in its context on spiritual terms.

Well this isn't exactly fair. You've already made up your mind that the Qur'an is false and therefore you can see everything through that lens if you want to. I don't think any Christian can honestly say 100% that it is not from the same God just tailored for a different and islotated people with a very different problem going on in their world. Sure you can believe that it probably isn't but none of us can be totally sure because there are scenarios where it fits in and scenarios where it doesn't. It's important to note that early Muslims were impressed by Muhammad and the Qur'an the same way early Christians were impressed by Jesus which you can't discount and not do the same to your own faith.

I assume you are referring to Jesus' sacrafice for humanity. If so, you do not understand the Bible's message on that matter.

Could you explain it to me too because i've never understood the way most Christians explain it.

 

[Amir]

Do you believe there is a creation who knows more then The Knowledge of the Creator?

Do you believe Satan will guide mankind towards righteousness? and being good to others?

Do you believe God will punish an innocent person for the crime of others?

OK, while I appreciate your reply I must say this. Counter questioning does not go well with me; it takes the focus off of what was originally asked and diverts discussion.

For the sake of what you asked, and your effort to present them I will say this. If Jesus is the subject of these questions, then please state so to clarify. IF He is NOT then the answer from what I know and perceive the questions is, no to the first and third.

As for the second question, let’s use an example. If Satan came to someone appearing as and saying obvious things that would give him away/reveal him as Satan, more than likely one would catch on. But, if he started with you in a more different, discreet and deceptive manner, appearing as an angel of light to lure, say things that will appear righteous and good, more than likely one would not know the difference. This keeps on going until his purposes are complete, adding and altering his messages as he pleases. Through which whatever he wanted to say he said it, and whatever he wanted to do, he did it, and his influence is sealed.

Now let’s get back to the topic please.

Thank you

 

[TrevorKamal]

OK, while I appreciate your reply I must say this. Counter questioning does not go well with me; it takes the focus off of what was originally asked and diverts discussion.

I'm not sure what those questions were getting at but I think that sometimes counter questions are the perfect way to answer questions that are difficult to answer. For example if a Christian asks a Muslim why he believe the Qur'an or Muhammad it is perfectly relevant to point toward what makes the Christian believe the Bible or Jesus. It sheds light on the difficulty of the question and can save pages of explanation by equating.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

OK, while I appreciate your reply I must say this. Counter questioning does not go well with me; it takes the focus off of what was originally asked and diverts discussion.

For the sake of what you asked, and your effort to present them I will say this. If Jesus is the subject of these questions, then please state so to clarify. IF He is NOT then the answer from what I know and perceive the questions is, no to the first and third.

As for the second question, let’s use an example. If Satan came to someone appearing as and saying obvious things that would give him away/reveal him as Satan, more than likely one would catch on. But, if he started with you in a more different, discreet and deceptive manner, appearing as an angel of light to lure, say things that will appear righteous and good, more than likely one would not know the difference. This keeps on going until his purposes are complete, adding and altering his messages as he pleases. Through which whatever he wanted to say he said it, and whatever he wanted to do, he did it, and his influence is sealed.

Now let’s get back to the topic please.

Thank you

The way you are answering my questions it seems like you are already showing resistence to what I have to say... If such behaviour continues then I asure you that what you are asking will not benefit you because you already have set answers for your questions.

My job is to ask you simple questions so I can have a common ground to explain what I have to say... but I am not going to say until we achieve a common ground.

Come to what is commen first.

Even if Jesus is included in my questions, according to the Christian belief Jesus was human too so he befalls under human suffering, don't you acknowledge Jesus human body blead or suffer pain? Don't you think Jesus human body was innocent?

About Satan - you need to put limits on satan because I don't like the idea of asking you a question which puts satan having the ability to show himself as Angel Gabriel & Prophets... Establish the limits of Satan before you continue and know about Satan a little more...

 

[Amir]

I'm not sure what those questions were getting at but I think that sometimes counter questions are the perfect way to answer questions that are difficult to answer. For example if a Christian asks a Muslim why he believe the Qur'an or Muhammad it is perfectly relevant to point toward what makes the Christian believe the Bible or Jesus. It sheds light on the difficulty of the question and can save pages of explanation by equating.

While this may give weight to the difficulty of the questions, it does not provide the required answers. That is where the problem is. By shifting the questions to the other side, answers to what was originally asked are harder to provide because of the shift in focus.

I understand and appreciate the input though.

Thanks

 

[Amir]

The way you are answering my questions it seems like you are already showing resistence to what I have to say... If such behaviour continues then I asure you that what you are asking will not benefit you because you already have set answers for your questions.

Not resistance. What I simply want is to know what you and the other fellow Muslims think or know about this. What I know is not the focus of this part of the discussion, it is what you and the others know or think.

My job is to ask you simple questions so I can have a common ground to explain what I have to say... but I am not going to say until we achieve a common ground.

I see where you’re coming from, but you are complicating things for yourself. All I ask is for you and the others to state what you know or think about this, that is all.

Come to what is commen first.

Even if Jesus is included in my questions, according to the Christian belief Jesus was human too so he befalls under human suffering, don't you acknowledge Jesus human body blead or suffer pain? Don't you think Jesus human body was innocent?

Don’t forget that Jesus was God too, so He would not fall directly under the same category.

About Satan - you need to put limits on satan because I don't like the idea of asking you a question which puts satan having the ability to show himself as Angel Gabriel & Prophets... Establish the limits of Satan before you continue and know about Satan a little more...

The limits of Satan are that which God Has limited him to. Satan is a lesser being, yet still powerful. God would not allow Satan to go beyond his limits, or in other words Satan cannot go beyond the limits imposed on him by God. Nevertheless Satan does posses power, and power enough to deceive many, especially those unfamiliar with God and His ways, and that is where discerning and the Spirit of God come into effect.


Now, let us please get back on topic.

Thank you

 

[Bookofknowledge]

Not resistance. What I simply want is to know what you and the other fellow Muslims think or know about this. What I know is not the focus of this part of the discussion, it is what you and the others know or think.

Well it's good that you want to know, however when you want to know something you have to ask and answer some questions.

It's a journey to acquire knowledge and different people take different route.

I see where you’re coming from, but you are complicating things for yourself. All I ask is for you and the others to state what you know or think about this, that is all.

I am asking the question hence it's not complicating things for me because I know what I am going to ask you next...

Don’t forget that Jesus was God too, so He would not fall directly under the same category.

all I want you to acknowledge Jesus was a human, if he was a human then he must have felt pain and human suffereing and his human body was innocent.

The limits of Satan are that which God Has limited him to. Satan is a lesser being, yet still powerful. God would not allow Satan to go beyond his limits, or in other words Satan cannot go beyond the limits imposed on him by God. Nevertheless Satan does posses power, and power enough to deceive many, especially those unfamiliar with God and His ways, and that is where discerning and the Spirit of God come into effect.

Come on.....

I expect you to know little more about Satan because God has clearly stated in scriptures that Satan is a open enmy to mankind. God will not just say Satan is an enmy and not explain who Satan really is and what are his limits...

 

[Amir]

Well it's good that you want to know, however when you want to know something you have to ask and answer some questions.

It's a journey to acquire knowledge and different people take different route.

While I do not agree completely with this, or think that one needs to answer questions in order for one’s questions to be answered, I did what I could to get you to reply. I do appreciate your effort and replies though. Now what I wish is that you share what you know or think about what I asked.

This goes for all the other fellow Muslims here, please share what you know or think.

I am asking the question hence it's not complicating things for me because I know what I am going to ask you next...

What I’m saying is that you’re making things harder for yourself, it’s much simpler.

all I want you to acknowledge Jesus was a human, if he was a human then he must have felt pain and human suffereing and his human body was innocent.

Jesus is God, Jesus is man. No problems here.

Come on.....

I expect you to know little more about Satan because God has clearly stated in scriptures that Satan is a open enmy to mankind. God will not just say Satan is an enmy and not explain who Satan really is and what are his limits...

I do, but what I’m doing here is relaying the information back to the topic of discussion. Also, don’t forget that Satan is powerful and is a powerful deceiver; he is a clever and cunning enemy.

 

[Skillganon]

Mohammad and Discerning

Do you know if Mohammad could discern between alshaitan (the devil) almala’eka (the angels) and Allah? Could he tell the difference? Who might have told him what? Did he know who that was that told him whatever? How accurate a discerner was he? How many times has a “being” appeared to him, and did he recognize the “being” accurately? And so on.

Are you saying was I witness to it? No.
If you are saying "did allah bestow protection from shatain?" then yes.

Are you suggesting that Muhhamad was mislead by shaitan?

I really don't know what are you trying to get at.

 

[Islam_mulia]

Do you know if Mohammad could discern between alshaitan (the devil) almala’eka (the angels) and Allah? Could he tell the difference? Who might have told him what? Did he know who that was that told him whatever? How accurate a discerner was he? How many times has a “being” appeared to him, and did he recognize the “being” accurately? And so on.

If you know, please share.


PS This is to see what you think or know of this, not because I need information.

In the context of both the Quran and the Bible, the angel Gabriel could not be the devil (satan):

1. Allah taught us to pray to God for refuge against Shaitan the accursed

So when you recite the Quran, seek refuge with Allah from the accursed Shaitan, (Surah An-Nahl 16:98)

2. The devil Shaitan cannot teach the Muslims to fight another Shaitan, as the bible quotes Jesus as saying:

If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand? (Matthew 12:26)

 

[mohammad99]

You wrote;

Do you know if Mohammad could discern between alshaitan (the devil) almala’eka (the angels) and Allah?

The answer is easy! Look at his religion. If this religion is against evil, this means he received his message from G-d / G-d's angels. If his religion had / has nothing good to offer , this means he .... the devil.
By Almighty Allah , his religion is DIVINE not SATANIC since ,now, Islam is the LAST Beacon from our Creator that calls humans to G-d, Allah. If it were Satanic, it would have vanished many centuries ago.
Islam is still as fresh and attractive today as it was during the Last prophet of Allah, Mohammad.
you said:

Could he tell the difference? Who might have told him what? Did he know who that was that told him whatever? How accurate a discerner was he?

Before prophet Mohammad was given the duty to preach Islam, he had been known among the Arabs to be an honest, serene and a wise person. These characteristics were of the essential ingredients for him to shoulder the new divine duty : calling the peoples to the One G-d. These personal characteristics are enough for him to "discern" an angel and a devil.These characteristics were bestowed on him by Almighty, allah.