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Mohammad and Discerning
- Thread starter Amir
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All Im trying to get at is simple and clear. Was Mohammad able to discern. Was he able to tell the difference or not. Who appeared to him, and what did they tell him.
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Im not talking about the context of scripture; Im talking about Mohammad and the being(s) that appeared to him. The devil would not teach someone to fight another devil, not ultimately, he might however distort things a bit, come to someone from a non conflicting point of view, subtle. Dont forget, the devil can play along with someone, appearing that all is going well but in the end he will achieve his purposes. Without discerning it would be quite hard to tell the difference.
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Unfortunately I would have to disagree with you here. Subtlety is quite an effective tool in deception. No matter, the focus here is on Mohammad, and discerning.
Again, unfortunately no matter how many personal characteristics a person may have, it doesnt give him discerning.
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BelindaP
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The Bible says that Satan can appear as an angel of light. He can represent himself as being from God.
What I don't know is whether Mohammed prayed to God for discernment to know the difference, or if he just accepted what the beings told him without doing that. If he did not, then I would say that his revelation would be suspect.
There are probably others who do know whether he did or not.
What I don't know is whether Mohammed prayed to God for discernment to know the difference, or if he just accepted what the beings told him without doing that. If he did not, then I would say that his revelation would be suspect.
There are probably others who do know whether he did or not.
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Hi Amir
I think that you are an Egyptian, aren't you? I am also an Egyptian.
Anyway, for answering your question about the discerning, it's clear through the Quran and the Sunna that there is no distortion between God and the Satan as you try to prove, since it is totally illogical that the Satan looks at people at the age of Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and sees that nearly most people are corrupt by different sins, then he comes and tries to get them away of these sins.
For example, in Arabia before Muhammad (Peace be upon him), they were polytheists, adultery was committed, many other sins were present, when Muhammad (Peace be upon him) came, he removed all these sins by the Quran and by the message. See these verses:
116. ALLAH shall not forgive that anything be associated with HIM as partner, but HE will forgive what is short of that to whomsoever HE pleases. And whoso associates anything with ALLAH has indeed strayed far away.
117. They invoke besides HIM none but lifeless objects, and they invoke none but Satan the rebellious,
118. Whom ALLAH has cursed. He said, `I will assuredly take a fixed portion from THY servants;
119. `And assuredly I will lead them astray and assuredly I will arouse in them vain desires, and assuredly I will incite them and they will cut the ears of cattle; and assuredly I will incite them and they will alter ALLAH's creation.' And whoever takes Satan for a friend instead of ALLAH, he certainly suffers a manifest loss.
120. He holds out promises to them and excites vain desires in them, and Satan promises them nothing but vain things.
121. For such, their abode shall be Hell, and they shall find no way of escape from it. ( Holy Quran 4)
61. And call to mind when WE said to the angels, `Submit to Adam,' and they all submitted. But Iblis did not. He said, `Shall I submit to one whom Thou hast created of Clay ?'
62. And he said, `What thinkest thou ? Can this whom thou hast honoured above me be my superior ? If Thou wilt grant me respite till the Day of Resurrection, I will most surely bring his descendants under my sway except a few.'
63. ALLAH said, `Begone ! and whoso follow thee from them, Hell shall surely be the recompense of you all - a full recompense;
64. And entice whomsoever of them thou canst with thy voice, and urge against them thy horsemen and thy footmen and share with them in wealth, and their children, and make promises to them.' And Satan promises them naught but deceit.
65. As to MY servants, thou shalt certainly have no power over them, and sufficient is thy Lord as a Guardian. ( Holy Quran 17)
27. O children of Adam, let not Satan seduce you, even as he turned your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment that he might show them their nakedness. Truly, he sees you, he and his tribe, from where you see them not. Surely, WE have made Satan friends of those who believe not.
(Holy Quran 7)
50. And call to mind the time when WE said to the angels, `Submit to Adam,' and they all submitted but Iblis did not. HE was one of the jinn; and he disobeyed the command of his Lord. Will you than take him and his offspring for friends instead of ME while they are your enemies ? Evil is the exchange for the wrongdoers. (Holy Quran 18)
168. O ye men ! eat of what is lawful and good in the earth; and follow not the footsteps of Satan, surely he is to you an open enemy.
169. He enjoins upon you only what is evil and what is foul, and that you say of ALLAH what you do not know. (Holy Quran 2)
There are many other Quranic and Hadith verses that tells that the Satan, how could the Satan tell people to leave all sins they commit and tell them to be righteous? How could the Satan order people with these orders?
23. Thy Lord has commanded that ye worship none but HIM, and that ye show kindness to parents. If one or both of them attain old age with thee, never say to them as much as ugh nor reproach them, but always address them with kindly speech.
24. And lower them the wing of humility out of tenderness. And say, `My Lord, have mercy on them even as they nourished me when I was a little child.'
25. Your Lord knows best what is in your minds, if you are righteous, then surely, HE is Most Forgiving to those who turn to HIM again and again.
26. And give to the kinsman his due, and to the poor and the wayfarer, and squander not thy wealth extravagantly.
27. Verily, the squanderers are brothers of satans and Satan is ungrateful to his Lord.
28. And if thou has to turn away from them while seeking thy Lord's mercy for which thou hopest, even then speak to them a kind word.
29. And keep not thy hand chained to thy neck out of miserliness nor stretch it forth to its utmost limit out of extravagance, lest thou sit down blamed and exhausted.
30. Surely, thy Lord enlarges HIS provision for whom HE pleases, and straitens it for whom HE pleases. Verily, HE knows and sees HIS servants full well.
31. And slay not your children for fear of poverty. It is WE Who provide for them and for you. Surely, the slaying of them is a grievous sin.
32. And go not nigh unto adultery, surely, it is a manifest indecency and an evil way.
33. And slay not the soul, the slaying of which ALLAH has forbidden, save for a just cause. And whoso is slain wrongfully, WE have surely given his heir authority to demand retribution but let him not exceed the prescribed bounds in slaying; for therein he will be supported by law.
34. And come not near the property of the orphan, except in the best way, until he attains his maturity and fulfill the covenant; for the covenant shall be questioned about.
35. And give full measure when you measure and weigh with a right balance; that is best and most commendable in the end.
36. And follow not that of which thou hast no knowledge. Verily, the ear and the eye and the heart - all these shall be called to account.
37. And walk not in the earth haughtily, for thou canst not thus rend the earth, nor canst thou reach the mountains in height.
38. The evil of all these is hateful in the sight of thy Lord. (Holy Quran 17)
Didn't Jesus tell you " you know them from their fruits"?
These are the fruits of Islam.
Thanks
I think that you are an Egyptian, aren't you? I am also an Egyptian.
Anyway, for answering your question about the discerning, it's clear through the Quran and the Sunna that there is no distortion between God and the Satan as you try to prove, since it is totally illogical that the Satan looks at people at the age of Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and sees that nearly most people are corrupt by different sins, then he comes and tries to get them away of these sins.
For example, in Arabia before Muhammad (Peace be upon him), they were polytheists, adultery was committed, many other sins were present, when Muhammad (Peace be upon him) came, he removed all these sins by the Quran and by the message. See these verses:
116. ALLAH shall not forgive that anything be associated with HIM as partner, but HE will forgive what is short of that to whomsoever HE pleases. And whoso associates anything with ALLAH has indeed strayed far away.
117. They invoke besides HIM none but lifeless objects, and they invoke none but Satan the rebellious,
118. Whom ALLAH has cursed. He said, `I will assuredly take a fixed portion from THY servants;
119. `And assuredly I will lead them astray and assuredly I will arouse in them vain desires, and assuredly I will incite them and they will cut the ears of cattle; and assuredly I will incite them and they will alter ALLAH's creation.' And whoever takes Satan for a friend instead of ALLAH, he certainly suffers a manifest loss.
120. He holds out promises to them and excites vain desires in them, and Satan promises them nothing but vain things.
121. For such, their abode shall be Hell, and they shall find no way of escape from it. ( Holy Quran 4)
61. And call to mind when WE said to the angels, `Submit to Adam,' and they all submitted. But Iblis did not. He said, `Shall I submit to one whom Thou hast created of Clay ?'
62. And he said, `What thinkest thou ? Can this whom thou hast honoured above me be my superior ? If Thou wilt grant me respite till the Day of Resurrection, I will most surely bring his descendants under my sway except a few.'
63. ALLAH said, `Begone ! and whoso follow thee from them, Hell shall surely be the recompense of you all - a full recompense;
64. And entice whomsoever of them thou canst with thy voice, and urge against them thy horsemen and thy footmen and share with them in wealth, and their children, and make promises to them.' And Satan promises them naught but deceit.
65. As to MY servants, thou shalt certainly have no power over them, and sufficient is thy Lord as a Guardian. ( Holy Quran 17)
27. O children of Adam, let not Satan seduce you, even as he turned your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment that he might show them their nakedness. Truly, he sees you, he and his tribe, from where you see them not. Surely, WE have made Satan friends of those who believe not.
(Holy Quran 7)
50. And call to mind the time when WE said to the angels, `Submit to Adam,' and they all submitted but Iblis did not. HE was one of the jinn; and he disobeyed the command of his Lord. Will you than take him and his offspring for friends instead of ME while they are your enemies ? Evil is the exchange for the wrongdoers. (Holy Quran 18)
168. O ye men ! eat of what is lawful and good in the earth; and follow not the footsteps of Satan, surely he is to you an open enemy.
169. He enjoins upon you only what is evil and what is foul, and that you say of ALLAH what you do not know. (Holy Quran 2)
There are many other Quranic and Hadith verses that tells that the Satan, how could the Satan tell people to leave all sins they commit and tell them to be righteous? How could the Satan order people with these orders?
23. Thy Lord has commanded that ye worship none but HIM, and that ye show kindness to parents. If one or both of them attain old age with thee, never say to them as much as ugh nor reproach them, but always address them with kindly speech.
24. And lower them the wing of humility out of tenderness. And say, `My Lord, have mercy on them even as they nourished me when I was a little child.'
25. Your Lord knows best what is in your minds, if you are righteous, then surely, HE is Most Forgiving to those who turn to HIM again and again.
26. And give to the kinsman his due, and to the poor and the wayfarer, and squander not thy wealth extravagantly.
27. Verily, the squanderers are brothers of satans and Satan is ungrateful to his Lord.
28. And if thou has to turn away from them while seeking thy Lord's mercy for which thou hopest, even then speak to them a kind word.
29. And keep not thy hand chained to thy neck out of miserliness nor stretch it forth to its utmost limit out of extravagance, lest thou sit down blamed and exhausted.
30. Surely, thy Lord enlarges HIS provision for whom HE pleases, and straitens it for whom HE pleases. Verily, HE knows and sees HIS servants full well.
31. And slay not your children for fear of poverty. It is WE Who provide for them and for you. Surely, the slaying of them is a grievous sin.
32. And go not nigh unto adultery, surely, it is a manifest indecency and an evil way.
33. And slay not the soul, the slaying of which ALLAH has forbidden, save for a just cause. And whoso is slain wrongfully, WE have surely given his heir authority to demand retribution but let him not exceed the prescribed bounds in slaying; for therein he will be supported by law.
34. And come not near the property of the orphan, except in the best way, until he attains his maturity and fulfill the covenant; for the covenant shall be questioned about.
35. And give full measure when you measure and weigh with a right balance; that is best and most commendable in the end.
36. And follow not that of which thou hast no knowledge. Verily, the ear and the eye and the heart - all these shall be called to account.
37. And walk not in the earth haughtily, for thou canst not thus rend the earth, nor canst thou reach the mountains in height.
38. The evil of all these is hateful in the sight of thy Lord. (Holy Quran 17)
Didn't Jesus tell you " you know them from their fruits"?
These are the fruits of Islam.
Thanks
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So the devil came to the prophet acting like the gabriel and told the prophet that God has chosen him as a messenger so that he may call people to the worship of God alone and to strive against the devil and his followers. Does it seem a smart thing for the devil to call people against himself
Lets see what the devil revealed to Muhammad (pbuh):
[FONT=Georgia,Times New Roman]O you who believe! Follow not the footsteps of Shaitân (Satan). And whosoever follows the footsteps of Shaitân (Satan), then, verily he commands Al-Fahshâ' [i.e. to commit indecency (illegal sexual intercourse, etc.)], and Al-Munkar [disbelief and polytheism (i.e. to do evil and wicked deeds; to speak or to do what is forbidden in Islâm, etc.)]. And had it not been for the Grace of Allâh and His Mercy on you, not one of you would ever have been pure from sins. But Allâh purifies (guides to Islâm) whom He wills, and Allâh is All-Hearer, All-Knower. (An-Nur 24:21)
[FONT=Georgia,Times New Roman]Surely, Shaitân (Satan) is an enemy to you, so take (treat) him as an enemy. He only invites his Hizb (followers) that they may become the dwellers of the blazing Fire. (Fatir 35:6)[/FONT]
[/FONT]
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Hello MK11,
That is all well and good, divert the people away from some sins but at the same time lead them to commit a bigger sin. Lead them to live a life of confusion, and make them think that their works will save them, not what God has done for them earlier through Jesus. Makes sense you know.
If Satan came to someone and out rightly tells him/her what he plans and what he wants etc, it is easy for that person to catch on to what Satan is doing. But, if Satan comes to someone from a different, more subtle way that seems righteous; it would be hard for the person to catch on.
You know them from their fruits, what are their fruits.
All of this is aside of the matter; could Mohammad discern, and how.
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Hello salafi,
If the devil has already subtly led someone off the track, and made them go in the way he wants them to, no matter what this person does to try to fight Satan, he/she has already lost, because they are not aiming right. They might think that they are fighting Satan, but they are not. He might have made them fight some sins (if they do stop sinning in that way) but he made them fall in a bigger sin, and also knowing that they cannot remain sinless no matter how hard they try on their own.
Satan did not ultimately call them to fight against himself, thats what he made them think that theyre doing, but in reality thats not whats going on.
These verses are talking about Satan (typically speaking), but if someone doesnt recognize Satan in the first place when he is subtle and deceitful, then there is a problem.
Again, this is side tracking a bit. This is about Mohammad and discerning.
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Is there any evidence in the Quran or hadiths which would give Mohammed the spirit of discernment, which is a gift that some Christians acquire?
Is there any evidence which show Mohammed having used a spirit of discernment in the past?
Is there any evidence which show Mohammed having used a spirit of discernment in the past?
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Hi Amir
Then you should prove your belief first.
If Satan came to someone and out rightly tells him/her what he plans and what he wants etc, it is easy for that person to catch on to what Satan is doing. But, if Satan comes to someone from a different, more subtle way that seems righteous; it would be hard for the person to catch on.
Then you should prove your belief first.
If Satan came to someone and out rightly tells him/her what he plans and what he wants etc, it is easy for that person to catch on to what Satan is doing. But, if Satan comes to someone from a different, more subtle way that seems righteous; it would be hard for the person to catch on.
Mohammad (Peace be upon him) could discern, for example he recognized the Satan as mentioned in
Bukhari 38:505B. The hadith is long but what I meant is at the end of the hadith so you can suffice by looking at the end.
Bukhari 38:505B. The hadith is long but what I meant is at the end of the hadith so you can suffice by looking at the end.
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