Modesty, Can It Be Fashionable?

[GreenEyedLady]

The Scriptural concept of modesty really has little to do with clothing and everything to do with attitude and behavior:

This verse contradicts your quote above.


Proverbs 7:10 And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart.

Preaching about clothes is meaningless. Preaching about godliness will result in women who are modest and men whose thoughts are modest as well.

I disagree. When we are nicley dressed, whether man or woman, we act differantly, we feel differantly. Clothing can change the attidude of a person. When I wear a dress I feel way more lady like than when I wear pants. My whole demeaor can be changed. Its not the idea of wearing a dress that ever bothered me, it was that someone was telling me it was immodest. I think before anyone opens there mouth here, you should really do a study on clothing in the bible. Before you fly off the handle and assume that what you are saying is what God is saying, the study of clothing would give you a better perspective. Just pulling out a couple of verses and saying that clothing doesn't matter is not really fair. I am not sure if you just pulled out a few verses or you have done a study rural preacher. I think its important to do this study before forming an opinion. I am not sure what your idea of study. Some take a study as this: Pull a few verses with clothing in them and form an opinion. Others might take a few weeks to really dig deep about what the word says about all kinds of clothing, not just the ones that are worn by women. Clothing in biblical times was ment to represent the person. So to say that clothing had little to do with modesty is an uneducted comment.


I agree that clothing can mask a persons evil ways. However, it can also show a persons godly ways.

GEL

 

[Andyman_1970]

Clothing in biblical times was ment to represent the person. So to say that clothing had little to do with modesty is an uneducted comment.

References please.

I agree that clothing can mask a persons evil ways. However, it can also show a persons godly ways.

I think the problem comes when we start to judge other by what they wear. I offer 1 Sameul 16:7 and Matthew 23 as examples of where pride in ones outward appearance or thinking one is "more righteous" because of how they dress is contrary to the attitude a follower of Jesus should have.

 

[CFoster]

When it comes to how we define modesty I believe it is a mistake to look at what a non-Christian wears. We cannot say that pants and a blouse are more modest just because we have women who walk around in mini-skirts and tight revealing blouses. Godliness is not something that is just a step above what everybody else does, it is living by very high standards set by God and his Word. In my opinion, I don't have a problem with a woman coming to church in dress pants, and the Baptist Church I go to doesn't either. But I don't think we as Christians should base what we wear or how we live on what we see everybody else do. Our standards must be higher.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

References please.

God instructed Israel's high priest to wear "holy garments," for he represented a holy God (Exodus 28:2). God also ordered the priests to wear clothing that covered their nakedness and forbad elevated altars upon which priests would walk and thereby expose their nakedness (Exodus 20:26; 28:42).

Deuteronomy 22:5 enunciates the moral principle of a clear distinction between male and female in outward appearance: one sex must not wear styles of clothing associated with the other.

Proverbs 7:10 speaks of a woman with "the attire associated with sin and are not suitable for godly people to wear.

The principle that God wants His people to reflect His holiness applies to the New Testament church (I Peter 1:15-16). We are called to be living epistles read of all people, declaring to the world God's holy nature and His abiding presence (II Corinthians 3:3). Our outward appearance is one way in which we are an unspoken witness of the transforming power of Christ.

I Timothy 2:9 admonishes "that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamedfacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array." I Peter 3:3 gives similar instructions.

I Corinthians 11:1-16 teaches that a woman should have long hair, for it is her glory, and that a man should not have long hair. A person's hair serves as an important visible symbol of his or her submission to God's plan of authority and as a distinguishing mark between the sexes.

Revelation 16:15 uses clothing as a symbol to instruct the church to stay close to God: "Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." Clearly, God puts emphasis on the outward appearance of a person. To an extent, clothing reflects the condition of the heart, and it sends message to others about a person's values.

GEL

 

[Ave Maria]

BUT, we have attended a church that required it on Sunday services as well. Along with the church bylaws stated no dancing, no co-ed swimming, no dating, and other things. We have since move don to another state and have another church.

Wow! That would not be my type of church. I'm don't see how the things listed could possibly impair someone's relationship with Christ.

 

[Andyman_1970]

Thanks for the references. Again for the record before I reply to you points let me state I believe modesty is very important (for both men and women).

I'm curious you stated earlier that:

Clothing in biblical times was ment to represent the person.

Since the people in Bible times were Jews (including the church for the most part for many of the early years), I'm curious if you have any extra Biblical references (historical, cultural) that support your statement.

God instructed Israel's high priest to wear "holy garments," for he represented a holy God (Exodus 28:2). God also ordered the priests to wear clothing that covered their nakedness and forbad elevated altars upon which priests would walk and thereby expose their nakedness (Exodus 20:26; 28:42).

Since I'm not a Levite or the High Preist, this is somewhat irrelevant in regards to the idea that modesty for a woman = a dress vs. pants.

Deuteronomy 22:5 enunciates the moral principle of a clear distinction between male and female in outward appearance: one sex must not wear styles of clothing associated with the other.

Question: as followers of Jesus are we under the Torah? This is a good and helpful principle, but to assert that it is somehow a "must do" would fly in the face of Jesus' interpretation of Torah (Love God and Love others) and Paul's teaching of Freedom in Christ.

Proverbs 7:10 speaks of a woman with "the attire associated with sin and are not suitable for godly people to wear.

Does the sinful attire here = pants? I agree that a women should not go to church dressed like a prostitute, but the prohibition against pants in this passage is not evident.

The principle that God wants His people to reflect His holiness applies to the New Testament church (I Peter 1:15-16). We are called to be living epistles read of all people, declaring to the world God's holy nature and His abiding presence (II Corinthians 3:3). Our outward appearance is one way in which we are an unspoken witness of the transforming power of Christ.

Again in principle I totally agree, modesty is important, but a woman can dress modest with pants, I know I see it every Sunday.

I Timothy 2:9 admonishes "that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamedfacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array." I Peter 3:3 gives similar instructions.

I think rualpastor addressed these quiet well.

I Corinthians 11:1-16 teaches that a woman should have long hair, for it is her glory, and that a man should not have long hair. A person's hair serves as an important visible symbol of his or her submission to God's plan of authority and as a distinguishing mark between the sexes.

Ditto my last statement.

Revelation 16:15 uses clothing as a symbol to instruct the church to stay close to God: "Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." Clearly, God puts emphasis on the outward appearance of a person. To an extent, clothing reflects the condition of the heart, and it sends message to others about a person's values.

So it would see we have a contradiction / conflict with the passages in 1 Samuel 16:7 and Matthew 23 - where emphasis to ones outward appearance is not nessecarily an indicator of one's heart.

As you can tell this is somewhat a hot button issue with me as it appears that it is with you. I have heard way too many pastors assert from the pulpit that wearing a 3 piece suit to church for a man is a sign of Godliness............that's 10 pounds in a 5 pound bag.........that's someone's opinion and dogma - not what Jesus taught.

Again, I agree with your modesty prinicple GEL, but to enforce it on others (not that you do) would fly in the face Romans 14, and smells like legalism.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Since I'm not a Levite or the High Preist, this is somewhat irrelevant in regards to the idea that modesty for a woman = a dress vs. pants.

it does prove my earlier point that clothing represented the person in biblical times.


Question: as followers of Jesus are we under the Torah? This is a good and helpful principle, but to assert that it is somehow a "must do" would fly in the face of Jesus' interpretation of Torah (Love God and Love others) and Paul's teaching of Freedom in Christ.

anything restated or repeated in the new testement is what we are to obey. We don't do the sabbath because the command is not given in the New Testement. The command to dress like a woman and not like a man is repeated in both testements.



Does the sinful attire here = pants? I agree that a women should not go to church dressed like a prostitute, but the prohibition against pants in this passage is not evident.

No, i do not believe it is a sin to wear pants. What I do believe is that God will bless me for wearing a dress in His honor. My church does not and has not ever preached that it is a sin to wear pants. Its always been a recommendation.



So it would see we have a contradiction / conflict with the passages in 1 Samuel 16:7 and Matthew 23 - where emphasis to ones outward appearance is not nessecarily an indicator of one's heart.

Not following your point here.

As you can tell this is somewhat a hot button issue with me as it appears that it is with you. I have heard way too many pastors assert from the pulpit that wearing a 3 piece suit to church for a man is a sign of Godliness............that's 10 pounds in a 5 pound bag.........that's someone's opinion and dogma - not what Jesus taught.

It was a hot button with me. I have just accepted it. I don't judge other women because they wear pants. Its more of a personal conviction and obedience to my pastors requests.

Again, I agree with your modesty prinicple GEL, but to enforce it on others (not that you do) would fly in the face Romans 14, and smells like legalism.

Its not possible that this is legalism. If it were legalism, the church would state that you could lose your salvation if you wore pants. We all know that none of these churches would ever preach that so there is no way this could a legalistic thing.

GEL
Ps. Sorry about the quotes. I am just lazy today.

 

[rural_preacher]

This verse contradicts your quote above.


Proverbs 7:10 And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart.

I disagree. When we are nicley dressed, whether man or woman, we act differantly, we feel differantly. Clothing can change the attidude of a person. When I wear a dress I feel way more lady like than when I wear pants. My whole demeaor can be changed. Its not the idea of wearing a dress that ever bothered me, it was that someone was telling me it was immodest. I think before anyone opens there mouth here, you should really do a study on clothing in the bible. Before you fly off the handle and assume that what you are saying is what God is saying, the study of clothing would give you a better perspective. Just pulling out a couple of verses and saying that clothing doesn't matter is not really fair. I am not sure if you just pulled out a few verses or you have done a study rural preacher. I think its important to do this study before forming an opinion. I am not sure what your idea of study. Some take a study as this: Pull a few verses with clothing in them and form an opinion. Others might take a few weeks to really dig deep about what the word says about all kinds of clothing, not just the ones that are worn by women. Clothing in biblical times was ment to represent the person. So to say that clothing had little to do with modesty is an uneducted comment.


I agree that clothing can mask a persons evil ways. However, it can also show a persons godly ways.

GEL

I think perhaps you have missed the point of my statements. I am not suggesting that we should wear whatever we want without regard to modest appearance. My point was (and is) that harping on clothing styles from the pulpit does nothing to change a person. Preaching the Word concerning the godly, Spirit-filled life will result in godly, Spirit-filled people who will dress, speak and behave in a godly and Spirit-filled way. Proper clothing will be a result of inward change.

We don't change people on the outside in hopes of changing them inside. Rather we preach the Word so that the Holy Spirit can use it in their lives to transform them inside. That will show on the outside.

--

 

[Andyman_1970]

GEL, I think in principle we agree, which is great.

I do have one question, you seem to have studies this alot - you said that "Clothing in biblical times was ment to represent the person." - I'm curious if you have any other references other than the Scriptures you used in your studies (commentaries, anything from the Hebaric perspective, etc.). I don't ask that so that "I can prove you wrong" I ask so I can pursue my own study...........thanks.

 

[GreenEyedLady]

We don't change people on the outside in hopes of changing them inside. Rather we preach the Word so that the Holy Spirit can use it in their lives to transform them inside. That will show on the outside.

--

I beg to differ.

Proverbs 16:3 Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.

Right here the Lord states, commit your works (outside) and I will change your thoughts (inside)

 

[GreenEyedLady]

GEL, I think in principle we agree, which is great.

I do have one question, you seem to have studies this alot - you said that "Clothing in biblical times was ment to represent the person." - I'm curious if you have any other references other than the Scriptures you used in your studies (commentaries, anything from the Hebaric perspective, etc.). I don't ask that so that "I can prove you wrong" I ask so I can pursue my own study...........thanks.

I have not used any commentaries for this paticular study. I have heard alot of preaching and I am reading the bible in chronological order which has helped ALOT. I should be finished by the 31st. While reading I have kept clothing in the back of my mind. I asked God to prove it to me. He did. I don't have anything written down if that is what you mean. I would start with pulling up all the verses about clothing, cloths, attire, etc. The story of Joesphs is another example of how clothing represented who the person was.
Clothing can and has represented matters of the heart. I did not believe this for along time. I thought it was crazy to think this. But as I read, I am more convinced that women and men have a motive to dress the way they do even if they are completley unaware of it in thier own mind. Its a heart matter, not a head matter. For years, I dressed immodestly. I used to be that girl that other women looked at and stared up and down while clutching thier husbands arm.
Its up to the individual where they will draw the line on how they dress. No one can force anything on any one. There are still women in my church who wear pants. They are members and we still accept them!
GEL

 

[Andyman_1970]

I beg to differ.

Proverbs 16:3 Commit thy works unto the LORD, and thy thoughts shall be established.

Right here the Lord states, commit your works (outside) and I will change your thoughts (inside)

Uh, Isaiah 1:10-17 would seem to disagree with you. These people were doing what God commanded them, but their hearts were far from them - God is pretty serious here about how much they disgust Him.

And again, Matthew 23, Jesus railing on the religious leaders of the day, they looked (to use our term) churchy but their hearts were hard and cold.

God is not interested in our religious "show" He is interested in our hearts (see the Shema - Deut. 6:5, and the most important commandment as quoted by Jesus).

 

[GreenEyedLady]

Uh, Isaiah 1:10-17 would seem to disagree with you. These people were doing what God commanded them, but their hearts were far from them - God is pretty serious here about how much they disgust Him.

And again, Matthew 23, Jesus railing on the religious leaders of the day, they looked (to use our term) churchy but their hearts were hard and cold.

God is not interested in our religious "show" He is interested in our hearts (see the Shema - Deut. 6:5, and the most important commandment as quoted by Jesus).

I beg to differ. These works that you mention where not works UNTO the Lord. If they were works UNTO the Lord, thier thoughs would be established just like the verse states. Please keep in mind, that my responce was to show RP that his comment......

We don't change people on the outside in hopes of changing them inside

was way to broad as far as scriptures goes. This verse that I posted is talking about thoughts, which is the mind, not the heart. I have said all along that it was a heart matter. I do believe that God works through the heart to convert people, however I believe that this verse in proverbs is another way God works through our obedience.
GEL

 

[TwinCrier]

Why dresses? OK, hows this: In every country around the world, the universally understood sign for woman, used on resrooms everywhere, is a figure wearing a dress.

Sure some women wear pants and some men wear dresses (and I ain't talkin kilts) however we are told in the bible:

The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Now for those who say clothing doesn't matter, how you you address this verse?

 

[Gold Dragon]

Why dresses? OK, hows this: In every country around the world, the universally understood sign for woman, used on resrooms everywhere, is a figure wearing a dress.

I wonder if Jesus would have been able to figure out which restroom to use based on those symbols.

 

[TwinCrier]

I wonder if Jesus would have been able to figure out which restroom to use based on those symbols.

I imagine so. He seems like a pretty smart guy.

 

[fluffy_rainbow]

This is an issue that I feel convicted about. I think pants (like bluejeans and sweatpants) are perfectly fine for walking around the house or going to get the mail; however, I feel led to wear skirts and dresses for the most part. Sadly, I was lost for a long time and the majority of my wardrobe consisted of lowcut, cleavage revealing blouses, short skirts, and tight-fitted pants. I have since discarded the items which left me with a few good, modest shirts, two great skirts, and two pair of blue jeans.

Twincrier, thank you for that link! I love the Hannah Lise website. I bookmarked the site

 

[rural_preacher]

I beg to differ. These works that you mention where not works UNTO the Lord. If they were works UNTO the Lord, thier thoughs would be established just like the verse states. Please keep in mind, that my responce was to show RP that his comment......
was way to broad as far as scriptures goes. This verse that I posted is talking about thoughts, which is the mind, not the heart. I have said all along that it was a heart matter. I do believe that God works through the heart to convert people, however I believe that this verse in proverbs is another way God works through our obedience.
GEL

But no one commits their way to the LORD unless they have been first transformed by the renewing of their mind (Romans 12:1,2). In those verses, the person who is transformed by the renewing of their mind is one who will offer their body as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God.

But if we simply impose a standard of conduct (including dress codes) on people in hopes that they will change we are wasting our time. We must focus on the transformational work of the HS through the preaching of the Word. Only as people submit themselves to God through faith can they commit their ways to the LORD.

From the outside in produces hypocrisy and false religiosity. From the inside out is genuine, Spirit-produced transformation.

--

 

[Crazy Liz]

Do you think when the Bible states a woman should dress modestly, it doesn't change with fashion? Example - a church, a lot of IFB, requires its women to wear dresses only, no pants, to promote modesty. Aren't some pants/slacks outfits modest? Compared to what most people wear these days, wouldn't you say that a woman can still be modest and wear pants/slacks, blouse, etc?

I ask because my wife has always had a hard time with this. She by no means wears anything revealing or provocative. But, she has a hard time with a church telling her she can only wear a dress and no pants/slacks. She feels that what she wears is modest, especially compared to what women wear these days. She would wear a nice pair of slacks, a sweater, and shoes and the church may not consider this modest.

Are we missing something?

Thanks for the input and comments in advance.

God Bless

If fashions never change, we should all go back to wearing animal skins.
[bible]genesis 3:21[/bible]

 

[TwinCrier]

If fashions never change, we should all go back to wearing animal skins.
Genesis 3:21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

I can't afford fur or leather. I would also live in constant fear that someone from PeTA would throw paint on me.