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Modesty, Can It Be Fashionable?

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GreenEyedLady

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rural_preacher said:
But no one commits their way to the LORD unless they have been first transformed by the renewing of their mind (Romans 12:1,2). In those verses, the person who is transformed by the renewing of their mind is one who will offer their body as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God.

But if we simply impose a standard of conduct (including dress codes) on people in hopes that they will change we are wasting our time. We must focus on the transformational work of the HS through the preaching of the Word. Only as people submit themselves to God through faith can they commit their ways to the LORD.

From the outside in produces hypocrisy and false religiosity. From the inside out is genuine, Spirit-produced transformation.

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Rp,
I think you are melting the 2 thoughts together. We are talking about saved people and what is modest apparal for sisters and brothers in Christ. Somehow you meshed together an unsaved, uncircumcised heart being forced to wear clothing. I think we both agree that all need to be saved first and formost! The point that we disagree on is that you think preachers should not preach about clothing and I think they should.
GEL
 
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lucypevensie

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TwinCrier said:
Why dresses? OK, hows this: In every country around the world, the universally understood sign for woman, used on resrooms everywhere, is a figure wearing a dress.
mensch16.gif
Sure some women wear pants and some men wear dresses (and I ain't talkin kilts) however we are told in the bible: Now for those who say clothing doesn't matter, how you you address this verse?

I'd say that if you can't tell whether the person you're looking at is a male or female because of their choice in clothing and hair and makeup etc., because they want to appear the opposite gender or unisex then those are the people that this verse pertains to. Have you visited a large city lately? I was just in Chicago last weekend, and you see all kinds of interesting people, including crossdressers. I do not believe that verse pertains to women who wear trousers. Trousers are not men's garments anymore.

About the signs: How else could they make the signs universal? They can't print MEN and WOMEN in all the known languages of the world.
 
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rural_preacher

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GreenEyedLady said:
Rp,
I think you are melting the 2 thoughts together. We are talking about saved people and what is modest apparal for sisters and brothers in Christ. Somehow you meshed together an unsaved, uncircumcised heart being forced to wear clothing. I think we both agree that all need to be saved first and formost! The point that we disagree on is that you think preachers should not preach about clothing and I think they should.
GEL
Yes, therein lies our only disagreement. I just think instruction about such matters belongs in more of a teaching setting such as Bible studies rather than the more public worship services. I think the spiritually older women in the church should be lovingly teaching the spiritually younger women in settings where all involved are believers.

If a pastor decides to expound on clothing from the pulpit, that's his way...I just wouldn't do it personally. That is something I leave to my wife and other mature women as they provide an example to the young ones.

As it relates to men, I don't tell them how they ought to dress. Instead, I simply dress in a way that is appropriate to set the example. It's amazing how effective that can be.


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Crazy Liz

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ISTM, the point to be made is that fashion and modesty are both culturally-determined. The Bible teaches modesty, but does not teach fashion.

Now, if a particular church wants to define itself as a separate culture or sub-culture, with its own fashions different from the surrounding culture (like the Amish, for instance) there probably isn't anything wrong with that per se. A Baptist church that requires women to wear dresses and not pants would simply be making a statement that they choose to be culturally distinct.

I think the question should not be whether or not it is appropriate for women to wear slacks, but what things should distinguish the church from the rest of the world, and why? The amount of cultural difference the Amish practice is a huge barrier to evangelism. New people are not easily incorporated into their culture. As a result, they don't often preach the gospel to outsiders.

I think RP's approach is a good one - much better than having rules and preaching them from the pulpit. There is a young lady who has been attending my church for almost 2 years. I don't think she dresses appropriately for church. She often wears halter or strapless tops in summer, and often shows some skin between her top and her skirt or pants. But she is a new Christian and loves the Lord very much. It's probably time for someone to speak to her about the way she dresses for church, but I am not going to do it myself, because this should not be communicated to her in a way that will seem non-accepting of her, but rather by someone who is helping her grow spiritually. I don't have that kind of relationship with her. I plan to speak to her aunt and suggest it may be time to talk to her about this. But before now, I really didn't think it was appropriate.

OTOH, I have no problem speaking to the younger women with whom I have a close or mentoring type of relationship. I have been known to take a younger woman aside and tell her next time she wears that skirt, she should be sure to wear a slip, or something similar, but my first concern is not to turn away a new believer.

DOIA, I think this would be something to discuss first with your wife, and then maybe with your pastor. Do you both feel like you want to be part of a church that distinguishes itself culturally this much? Do this and other cultural distinctives adopted by your church help or hinder evangelism in your community?

I have seen churches that observed certain traditions about dress grow and be welcoming, and others not. For example, in a community where I used to live, there was a large and fast-growing Eastern Orthodox church. When I was invited to visit, I think my friend told me I should wear a below-the-knee skirt and be sure my shoulders were covered. I can't remember exactly how that came up. I may have asked her first whether I should wear some sort of head covering there. Anyway, it was simple respect for that church's culture. She told me in a way that indicated her concern that I feel comfortable there, and respect for my concern that I not draw attention to myself as someone who was culturally inconsiderate.

Fashion is a matter of culture, and it may be good or bad to make a distinctive cultural statement as a church. How you do it and why are very important. Also, it is important that it be communicated in a way that does not lead to misunderstandings about the reasons. it should enhance evangelism and fellowship, not put up barriers to evangelism and fellowship.

Just my $.02.
 
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fluffy_rainbow

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Well, we can thank mainstream clothing companies that appeal to youth for total abandon of modesty and feminine mystique. Clothing companies, such as Abercrombie & Fitch, that sell thong panties with words like "Tasty" and "Hottie" embroidered on them for seven year olds seem to set the tone as to what is "fashionable" for young people. When my mother was in high school, the fashion tabboo was bellbottoms with the American flag sewn across the seat. Today it is pants that ride so low girl's panties stick out the back and skirts no bigger than an unfolded napkin. It's shameful, and churches need to be aware of the rise in immodest, scandalous fashion trends so that our young people will not fall prey to satan's lie that in order to be trendy and fashionable you must dress like a street walker. As Joshua Harris so poignantly put it, "this country will not survive another generation of Christians who 'fit in' ".
 
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TwinCrier

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Crazy Liz said:
There is a young lady who has been attending my church for almost 2 years. I don't think she dresses appropriately for church. She often wears halter or strapless tops in summer, and often shows some skin between her top and her skirt or pants. But she is a new Christian and loves the Lord very much. It's probably time for someone to speak to her about the way she dresses for church, but I am not going to do it myself, because this should not be communicated to her in a way that will seem non-accepting of her, but rather by someone who is helping her grow spiritually.
I think that is how some of these things get out of hand. Instead of the preacher making a general comment to the congregation, it's a few people confronting the person who then feels attacked. In the mean time, other young people in the church see that such attire is accepted and join in.
 
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GreenEyedLady

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TwinCrier said:
I think that is how some of these things get out of hand. Instead of the preacher making a general comment to the congregation, it's a few people confronting the person who then feels attacked. In the mean time, other young people in the church see that such attire is accepted and join in.
I totally agree. If the pastor would adress clothing attire in the preaching, no one then is singled out and the Holy Spirit ends up convicting the women not people in the congregation.

GEL
 
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Crazy Liz

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TwinCrier said:
I think that is how some of these things get out of hand. Instead of the preacher making a general comment to the congregation, it's a few people confronting the person who then feels attacked. In the mean time, other young people in the church see that such attire is accepted and join in.
People can feel attacked as a result of a personal confrontation or as a result of a public announcement.

The point is to communicate in a way that does not make the person feel attacked. Based on the OP, I think probably DOIA's wife feels attacked, and/or the pastor is teaching something as absolute that really is relative to culture.

Edit: People can feel singled out by a public pronouncement, too. I once had a pastor who was masterful at this. :sigh:
 
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Crazy Liz

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GreenEyedLady said:
I totally agree. If the pastor would adress clothing attire in the preaching, no one then is singled out and the Holy Spirit ends up convicting the women not people in the congregation.

GEL
I don't think it's that simple at all. If the pastor preaches on something, don't the members of the congregation then talk about it with each other? A sermon on clothing may be used by some members as a license to attack women who don't conform.

The way cultural norms are communicated is also cultural. Sometimes it is nurturing, and sometimes it is confrontational. There is nothing right or wrong about communicating cultural norms in public or in private. The point is that cultural norms should not get in the way of evangelism and fellowship.
 
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GreenEyedLady

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Crazy Liz said:
People can feel attacked as a result of a personal confrontation or as a result of a public announcement.
I agree with you Liz. But I think its important for the Holy Spirit who should be working through the preacher to be the one who "attacks" the sinful nature of the person.


If the pastor preaches on something, don't the members of the congregation then talk about it with each other? A sermon on clothing may be used by some members as a license to attack women who don't conform
Yes, sometimes they do talk about it with each other which give the oppurtuinty for the wiser and elder women of the church to then guide the younger or new members of the church. Those who use it as a licence to attack God will convict them in thier wicked ways as He does in all our wicked ways.

GEL
 
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