Modern day systemic racism, does it exist?

[RDKirk]

Did the officer involved get away with it with impunity?

They all walked free.

 

[Astrid]

They all walked free.

Is that the same as "get away with it"?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Black male of

2023 Demographic Differences in Federal Sentencing

(November 2023) A report updating the Commission's data analysis concerning demographic differences in federal sentencing practices.

www.ussc.gov

I have posted all of this stuff before but you just make excuses or dismiss it outright.

Ok...so right at the bottom of page 24 of this report, it says this.

Because multivariate regression analysis cannot control for all of
the factors that judges may consider, the results of the analyses presented
in this report should be interpreted with caution and should not be taken
to suggest discrimination on the part of judges. Multivariate analysis
cannot explain why the observed differences in sentencing outcomes
exist, but only that they do exist.

Now...I know you don't read the reports, you know you don't read the research that you post....but that's the problem.

Because you're posting research as "evidence of racism" of some type....and that exact same research is saying, quite clearly...


"Hey, don't do something like use this to suggest these judges are racist or anything....because we literally can't prove that with just a disparity."

Do you see the problem? Your evidence is telling me not to consider it as evidence of the very thing you believe.

Again, in simple terms...

You - "Here's the evidence of racism!"

The research you posted- "Warning, this research should not be considered evidence of racism!"

 

[rjs330]

They all walked free.

Maybe, but why is the question. Was it with impunity? That's the claim.

Cops don't get to just shoot people for no reason and walk away without any oversight, questioning or anything. There's a large process they go through. It may be found the shooting was justified.

You and I may believe it was not, but we only have an opinion without all the facts.

We may absolutely think it was not justified. But others did. What makes us right and them wrong? Or even vice versa.

 

[Astrid]

Ok...so right at the bottom of page 24 of this report, it says this.

Because multivariate regression analysis cannot control for all of
the factors that judges may consider, the results of the analyses presented
in this report should be interpreted with caution and should not be taken
to suggest discrimination on the part of judges. Multivariate analysis
cannot explain why the observed differences in sentencing outcomes
exist, but only that they do exist.

Now...I know you don't read the reports, you know you don't read the research that you post....but that's the problem.

Because you're posting research as "evidence of racism" of some type....and that exact same research is saying, quite clearly...


"Hey, don't do something like use this to suggest these judges are racist or anything....because we literally can't prove that with just a disparity."

Do you see the problem? Your evidence is telling me not to consider it as evidence of the very thing you believe.

Again, in simple terms...

You - "Here's the evidence of racism!"

The research you posted- "Warning, this research should not be considered evidence of racism!"

Due diligence and all

 

[Ana the Ist]

Sure, go for it if that is what your experience tells you

I wouldn't assume such thing about people based on race.

Yes....let's go ahead and assume every race has an equal percentage of racists, or blacks are more racist if that's what you like. Do you think there might be a reason for that?

I suppose you would assume that blacks are systemically racist?

Do you think blacks are holding back white people on anything other than maybe social media?

Did you miss the article about the guy not getting the job because he's white?

I mean, to be fair, those were white people discriminating against him....but if you prefer we can pull up some recent examples where black people are discriminating against whites.

Wanna see those?

' It's called systemic racism.

Hey, lucky guess...I called it. Why do you think black people are systemically racist?

The problem with your theory is blacks don't control anything in this country as a people.

Nobody controls anything as a people lol apart from the Sopranos fantasy people in your imagination.

White people do run every industry in our country and the government plus the military so white racism is much more effective for oppression.

Oh ok....so black people are systemically racist because of white people?

I should have guessed you'd find a way to blame white people for the problem.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Due diligence and all

I get that people don't actually read the research. I was going to point out that the biggest problem is that it doesn't seem to consider criminal history (or perhaps I missed it because I read it too fast, or it was already built into the study...being built upon an earlier 2012 study) but frankly, when honest research is done well....


It's going to include a sentence or two about its limitations. It's not evidence of racism and shouldn't be used that way....and it says so. That's all that needs pointed out.

I wish I knew how many times I've shown this exact same thing to people over the years.

 

[Astrid]

I get that people don't actually read the research. I was going to point out that the biggest problem is that it doesn't seem to consider criminal history (or perhaps I missed it because I read it too fast, or it was already built into the study...being built upon an earlier 2012 study) but frankly, when honest research is done well....


It's going to include a sentence or two about its limitations. It's not evidence of racism and shouldn't be used that way....and it says so. That's all that needs pointed out.

I wish I knew how many times I've shown this exact same thing to people over the years.

Keep it up.
If you noticed what I wrote about white
people getting longer sentences tha black,
it was to illustrate, as you did far better, the problem
with facile study, preconceived ideas,
and misuse of data.
Apparently black ( or any other ) women
do consistently get shorter sentences then
white ( or any other) men.

Easy to make it sound different than it is.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Like you didn't see mine

It's a long thread. I remember a couple of things you posted recently but if there's something specific, feel free to point it out.

Like I said, you don't like the information you dismiss it.

No....nope. I read the research that you gave to another poster. It literally disagrees with you. It said it shouldn't be considered evidence of any sort of discrimination by the judges. They cannot possibly account for every single variable.

It's when a culture teaches it.

And where does that happen?

Culture isn't a person....you're anthropomorphizing again.

No, I said there are millions and millions of racists. Not that there is one nonracist for every couple million racists. Try to keep up

Ok...so are there more racists or non-racists? How are old ladies like my grandma holding you back?

Anybody can be corrupted any anyone can be a target.

That's not the issue.

But sleep tight with your belief that there is no corruption in government (or not much anyway).

Never said that. I just don't see any evidence of your crime boss fantasies in reality.

If you want to see real corruption, take a look at how much president's get for speeches post presidency, who they give those speeches too, and how much they are paid.

These are some of the most expensive speeches in the history of talking in front of people. You'd think for that kind of money, you're getting some eye opening wisdom or life changing advice.....but I bet like most people, you've never heard one. That's because you might start wondering why they got paid millions of dollars for them.

They don't need the money of some hoodlum hiding card games in the basement of his pizzeria. Get a grip.

Now, for reasons I won't get into, I'll make some exceptions because frankly, I know very little about Chinese organized crime because it's so often directly tied to legitimate businesses and government....they actually do have some pull. I think the last big Triad member we had was extradited safely to China before we barely interviewed him. Russian organizations often run in a similar fashion and similarities can be pointed out in the oligarchs who fled Russia at the start of their recent war.

The Italians mainly have a big presence in Europe and Australia where they are a major player in the drug trade but frankly, they wouldn't dare mess with the Mexicans who control the drug trade here....from across the border.

Mostly because they could never get away with it right? I mean who ever gets away with breaking the law?

According to you....everyone but black people because everyone is racist. Brilliant explanation.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Keep it up.
If you noticed what I wrote about white
people getting longer sentences tha black,
it was to illustrate, as you did far better, the problem
with facile study, preconceived ideas,
and misuse of data.
Apparently black ( or any other ) women
do consistently get shorter sentences then
white ( or any other) men.

Easy to make it sound different than it is.

Yeah I don't even use some of the same "examples" people use because fundamentally I don't like the idea of "the same crime"....there's just too many factors in a crime to call them "the same". When people compare Tony Timpa (whatever his name was) and George Floyd....I get why they are making the comparison, they ended in a similar way....but they began very differently. I'm pretty sure Tony called the police on himself, for help....George had the police called on him for trying to pass a phony 20$ bill.


If we really want to compare similar crimes....why wouldn't we compare those crimes with the fewest variables?

Speeding is a crime with basically 1 variable. We should be able to look at speeding tickets for everyone in the same location, going the same speed over the limit, and look at everyone who acted the same when police pulled them over through body cam footage. We could do this...but we don't....because I suspect we won't find anything noteworthy.


Sociologists don't get grants from politicians for disproving their narratives.

 

[RDKirk]

Yeah I don't even use some of the same "examples" people use because fundamentally I don't like the idea of "the same crime"....there's just too many factors in a crime to call them "the same". When people compare Tony Timpa (whatever his name was) and George Floyd....I get why they are making the comparison, they ended in a similar way....but they began very differently. I'm pretty sure Tony called the police on himself, for help....George had the police called on him for trying to pass a phony 20$ bill.

I make the comparison because of the difference, the contrast. Yes, Timpa did call 911 himself to provide him with help because he was having a medical emergency. IMO, it was actually the 911 system first at fault for sending the police to do an EMT job.

But the Tony Tempa situation is a perfect example of police being untrained in dealing with a man who was clearly no criminal and of limited threat to the bunch of them. He died solely through incompetence and negligence...which in the military would have resulted in an entire review of the training program. The Air Force would have stopped flying to retrain its people. The Navy would have actually stopped every ship dead in the water to retrain its people on the spot. Police forces seem never to consider training any differently.

 

[rturner76]

Ok...so right at the bottom of page 24 of this report, it says this.

Because multivariate regression analysis cannot control for all of
the factors that judges may consider, the results of the analyses presented
in this report should be interpreted with caution and should not be taken
to suggest discrimination on the part of judges. Multivariate analysis
cannot explain why the observed differences in sentencing outcomes
exist, but only that they do exist.

Now...I know you don't read the reports, you know you don't read the research that you post....but that's the problem.

Because you're posting research as "evidence of racism" of some type....and that exact same research is saying, quite clearly...


"Hey, don't do something like use this to suggest these judges are racist or anything....because we literally can't prove that with just a disparity."

Do you see the problem? Your evidence is telling me not to consider it as evidence of the very thing you believe.

Again, in simple terms...

You - "Here's the evidence of racism!"

The research you posted- "Warning, this research should not be considered evidence of racism!"

It's a government report so they can let you know what mistakes they are making but they still have to cover themselves from legal action. I already told you they know how to cover their backsides in government agencies.

 

[rturner76]

I wouldn't assume such thing about people based on race.

Sur thing

I suppose you would assume that blacks are systemically racist?

yes

I mean, to be fair, those were white people discriminating against him....but if you prefer we can pull up some recent examples where black people are discriminating against whites.

Wanna see those?

Even if you find 100 articles where a white man is being discriminated against, it happens less often.

Hey, lucky guess...I called it. Why do you think black people are systemically racist?

Because we live in a country that has always treated people differently based on race. It's just not legal now so people hide it.

Nobody controls anything as a people lol apart from the Sopranos fantasy people in your imagination

Maybe you're right, not as a people but as a race.

Oh ok....so black people are systemically racist because of white people?

I should have guessed you'd find a way to blame white people for the problem.

Yes, they built a country where your class could be determined by your race. Let me be clear though. The current generations didn't establish this but our society has been tainted by it.

And where does that happen?

Culture isn't a person....you're anthropomorphizing again.

I get confused when you use those big words.

Ok...so are there more racists or non-racists? How are old ladies like my grandma holding you back?

I don't know honestly but I believe there is enough racism to affect people. Your gramma didn't do anything I know of but you already know what she has been exposed to especially if she lived in the south. That stench is still in the air.

I'm not saying systemic racism is stopping people from doing anything, I'm saying many people have been affected in some way by racism.

I know very little about Chinese organized crime because it's so often directly tied to legitimate businesses and government.

Same as any other organized crime syndicate.

Never said that. I just don't see any evidence of your crime boss fantasies in reality

That's great, you have faith in your government's lack of corruption. I bet it feels comfortable.

If you want to see real corruption, take a look at how much president's get for speeches post presidency, who they give those speeches too, and how much they are paid.

Presidents need friends in high places to get into office.

 

[Pommer]

Oh ok....so black people are systemically racist because of white people?

I should have guessed you'd find a way to blame white people for the problem.

What’s it like to know that whatever problems black folk might face in life in this Nation, those problems are totally never going from the effects of racism?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I make the comparison because of the difference, the contrast. Yes, Timpa did call 911 himself to provide him with help because he was having a medical emergency. IMO, it was actually the 911 system first at fault for sending the police to do an EMT job.

But the Tony Tempa situation is a perfect example of police being untrained in dealing with a man who was clearly no criminal and of limited threat to the bunch of them. He died solely through incompetence and negligence...which in the military would have resulted in an entire review of the training program. The Air Force would have stopped flying to retrain its people. The Navy would have actually stopped every ship dead in the water to retrain its people on the spot. Police forces seem never to consider training any differently.

Yeah I'm not saying people shouldn't use the example. I don't know what the full details of either case are. I can understand how police might have acted differently based on different sets of knowledge in either case, and I agree they handled both cases badly.


I'm just saying that the nuance gets lost when some people drag these things up as examples and say "the exact same thing happened here"....which isn't really true.

There's a video that went viral of cops intervening during a fight between a white and black kid at the mall somewhere....and the white kid was sitting on a bench while the black kid was on the ground being restrained. The woman who grabbed the white kid used significantly less force....but that kid also complied immediately. The black kid was still struggling to get out of the grip of the male cop and trying to throw punches around him imo....even after it was clear that the person restraining him was a cop. This got held up as some sort of double standard....and even when the two suspects are doing the exact same thing at the point the cops intervene....doesn't mean it was treated differently because of racism. They clearly had different responses to being restrained by the police.

People see these studies where one guy got charged with let's say "simple assault" and a guy of another race got charged with "simple assault". Those are the same charges....but they can describe very different crimes.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Sur thing

Well that's the reality of the situation.

yes

Why? Seems like an awful thing to assume about black people.

Even if you find 100 articles where a white man is being discriminated against, it happens less often.

And that's your admission that you don't consider evidence.

Why is it so hard for you to find articles espousing racist beliefs about black people but so easy for me to find ones espousing racist beliefs about white people?

If blacks are the ones facing systemic racism, why is it so easy for me to find examples of people losing job opportunities because they're white.....explicitly.....that show racial discrimination and don't require me, or you, or anyone pretending that the racism is hidden?

A lot of people believe the same thing you do....but actual real life examples are harder to come by. Shouldn't the opposite be true if I'm the one with the privilege and you're the one facing racism?

Because we live in a country that has always treated people differently based on race. It's just not legal now so people hide it.

Read the articles....I'm not talking about some magical hidden racism. The lady said "I don't think we should hire you because you're white". That's not hidden....it's not in anyone's imagination.

It's real.

Maybe you're right, not as a people but as a race.

I'm right, it's not associated with crimes...or race. Goldman Sachs isn't paying 10 million for a speech cuz it's such a good speech. Obama isn't excluded from these "deals" because he's black.

Yes, they built a country where your class could be determined by your race. Let me be clear though. The current generations didn't establish this but our society has been tainted by it.

Asians average more income than whites and Elon Musk who is insanely wealthy came to this country with about 100k in student debt from college in Canada if I'm not mistaken.

It's not race holding anyone back. We got a look at the way Harvard (I think, maybe Yale) uses race in its admission process. If you're white....0 points. I think asians actually lose 200-300 points. African Americans? They get like 300-400 points added to their overall admission score....just for being black.

The problem is that schools like Harvard are actually extremely difficult. A degree requires a lot of work in most of the profitable degrees. If you haven't actually earned your position on merit...you may find yourself unprepared and overwhelmed.

I get confused when you use those big words.

I know. That's why I added a definition to it last time I used it. I'm a really considerate guy.

I don't know honestly but I believe there is enough racism to affect people.

Technically any racism can affect people.

Sadly....people only seem to care about it when it affects them.

Your gramma didn't do anything I know of but you already know what she has been exposed to especially if she lived in the south. That stench is still in the air.

Northeast...but whatever. It doesn't really matter what she was exposed to...she didn't teach my mom to be racist, she doesn't seem racist....what more do you want?

I'm not saying systemic racism is stopping people from doing anything, I'm saying many people have been affected in some way by racism.

No offense but now it doesn't sound very important at all. I thought all this time it was throwing people in jail unfairly and destroying their chances of being wealthy.

In fact, you just claimed it was responsible for our "class based society". This sounds like a big step away from that.

Same as any other organized crime syndicate.

Not really. Do you know a lot of US businessmen who spent ten years in a foreign jail for drug smuggling then returned to the US to run for office?

Chang An-lo - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

It's different.

That's great, you have faith in your government's lack of corruption. I bet it feels comfortable.

This is a pathetic attempt to mischaracterize my position. I just gave you an example of corruption my last post. Any further attempts I'm just going to consider trolling.

Presidents need friends in high places to get into office.

I don't think I'd call illegal card games in pizzeria basements high places. When George Soros is filling your pockets and Wall Street has enough money for both sides, you don't even bother with dying organized crime groups that can't even hide a card game. There's no upside.

 

[RDKirk]

I'm not saying systemic racism is stopping people from doing anything, I'm saying many people have been affected in some way by racism.

That goes to the point I made right off the bat in this thread.

If systemic racism is not "stopping people from doing anything," then it falls in significance down to any of a hundred other difficulties in life anyone could suffer. Being unattractive, for instance, is a greater problem than being black. Being very short for a man is a greater problem than being black...and so on.

 

[Ken-1122]

Maybe you're right, not as a people but as a race.

I disagree. The way I see it, the white race controls nothing in this country; no race does this.
How many white people voted for Donald Trump? (Perhaps half) How many hate him? (The other half). How many white people voted for Obama? (half) How many hate him (the other half).
How many black people hate Trump? How many black people love Obama? (practically all of them)
Black people are notorious for focusing all of their political power in one direction; the democratic party; white people don’t. White people are some of the most politically diverse voters in this country, so though having superior numbers they spread their power in countless directions; some democratic, some republican, some socialist, some anarchist, some green, etc. etc. when you do this, you divide your power in multiple directions so with them having superior numbers mean nothing. The only way the white race can control this country the way you imagine they do, is for them to vote one way; the way black people are known to do. This never has, nor never will happen (IMO) So your idea that the white race controls this country is not based on reality.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's a government report so they can let you know what mistakes they are making but they still have to cover themselves from legal action. I already told you they know how to cover their backsides in government agencies.

That's explaining the limitations of the study.

Nowhere in the study does it say anything like "we believe this constitutes evidence of racial discrimination".


It does say that it shouldn't be considered evidence of discrimination.

It's not my fault you don't read the research you're posting or don't understand the limitations of what research can prove.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What’s it like to know that whatever problems black folk might face in life in this Nation, those problems are totally never going from the effects of racism?

Who said that?

I said it was predictable that somewhere, somehow, he'd find a way to blame white people.