MJ vs Hebrew roots movement

[Alithis]

hyello Mj forum i havnt visited for a long time .. but then iv been on forced exile for the crime of no compromise. something we must get used to .

i have noticed an increasing trend from non Israeli non Jewish decent evangelicals particularly from charismatic circles who are leaning across to MJ TYPE thinking and practices .And if i have a beef on the topic ..its with them not you lot
they dont actually focus on or DO much at all of what the lord Jesus said to do -that costs to much of ones own life to follow . so they do other "STUFF" they actually fill their church lives with that "STUFF"

they have vigils all night , they go and stand on hill tops and read prayers
they blow rams horns ( i noted this trend is being greatly enjoyed by the traders of rams horns in Jerusalem ) they wave flags ,dance around maps ... yes i kid you not .
One time i observed this new ageism practiced two ways with my own eyes .
1 - they placed a large city map on the ground and danced around it scattering wheat seed on it to "seed the gospel " !?!?
2 they took coal lumps from a welsh revival town and buried them in the ground to seed revival?????

(NOT mj practice i hope )both of these acts of taking elementary things of earth and used in ritual to "manipulate" a spiritual outcome are better known as WITCHCRAFT .
but i digressed .. then latest trend now is thwe swing to "hebrew roots " where they thing it is more spiritual, more correct , more righteous to use only the Hebrew language and terminology and names and references in hebrew only and that if you DONT then your not actually in truth or saved
rather cutting of the possibility of salvation to any nations who speak any other of the 22000+ dialects that GOD made at the time of nimrod .

how does the "hebrew roots movement" sit in the eyes of genuine MJ people ?

 

[Steve Petersen]

 

[Alithis]

explain?

 

[Hoshiyya]

explain?

some people are victims if you talk about them and victims if you ignore them.

I don't think it's fair to characterize your personal experiences as "stereotypes" as Steve apparently does.

I agree with your assessment that people are inventing things and doing things other than what God commanded. Most gentile followers of MJ have a background in Protestantism and this influences them in everything they do.
One can add that the Catholics who become or adopt elements of MJ tend to be Catholics who live in traditionally Protestant countries.

That thing about "seeding the gospel" sounds extremely American Protestant to me.

 

[Alithis]

some people are victims if you talk about them and victims if you ignore them.

I don't think it's fair to characterize your personal experiences as "stereotypes" as Steve apparently does.

I agree with your assessment that people are inventing things and doing things other than what God commanded. Most gentile followers of MJ have a background in Protestantism and this influences them in everything they do.
One can add that the Catholics who become or adopt elements of MJ tend to be Catholics who live in traditionally Protestant countries.

That thing about "seeding the gospel" sounds extremely American Protestant to me.

no its not American protestant ..its just new agism `thats come about because people are often looking for a way to to obey the lord Jesus ..without actually obeying the lord Jesus.. ie -He said GO heal the sick preach the Gospel etc ... he also said the seed is the word of God ..so to spread the seed you have to GO OUT and tell people the word of God ...
so what do they do.. ? march around a map dropping seeds on it ...

but i may have asked the question in the wrong forum .. Messianic-Judaism has always been extremely confusing for me .and somewhat of an oxymoron (a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction)
when i was growing up there were these Israelite born and raised IN Israel and inside the predominantly Jewish religion and customs of Judaism -that THEN converted and became believers in the Messiah JESUS. And they were generally referred to as "Messianic" because they now believed and followed JESUS the messiah and to do so LEFT Judaism.

now im trying to define who they really are ..are they the Hebrew roots movement in disguise ? have they become the Hebrew roots movement -
? I already know why many charismatic folks are flocking to it , because walking up a hill to wave flags and blow trumpets and use Hebrew language terms then go have a cup of tea and biscuits and pat each other on the back is far far easier then Actually going out and DOING what JESUS said to do .which gets a person mocked rejected hated and killed.

 

[Hoshiyya]

no its not American protestant ..its just new agism `thats come about because people are often looking for a way to to obey the lord Jesus ..without actually obeying the lord Jesus.. ie -He said GO heal the sick preach the Gospel etc ... he also said the seed is the word of God ..so to spread the seed you have to GO OUT and tell people the word of God ...
so what do they do.. ? march around a map dropping seeds on it ...

...I already know why many charismatic folks are flocking to it , because walking up a hill to wave flags and blow trumpets and use Hebrew language terms then go have a cup of tea and biscuits and pat each other on the back is far far easier then Actually going out and DOING what JESUS said to do

Well American Protestants/Evangelicals do all these exact kinds of things. Presumably these people you describe have a background in Protestantism/Evangelicalism as opposed to Catholicism or (say) Greek Orthodox, and the specifics you describe make them sound more American than European. And ultimately we agree, since New Ageism is entirely American.

 

[Alithis]

Well American Protestants/Evangelicals do all these exact kinds of things. Presumably these people you describe have a background in Protestantism/Evangelicalism as opposed to Catholicism or (say) Greek Orthodox, and the specifics you describe make them sound more American than European. And ultimately we agree, since New Ageism is entirely American.

actually its global especially prevelant in the EU .. after all one of thier icons is a woman riding a beast

 

[Steve Petersen]

no its not American protestant ..its just new agism `thats come about because people are often looking for a way to to obey the lord Jesus ..without actually obeying the lord Jesus.. ie -He said GO heal the sick preach the Gospel etc ... he also said the seed is the word of God ..so to spread the seed you have to GO OUT and tell people the word of God ...
so what do they do.. ? march around a map dropping seeds on it ...

but i may have asked the question in the wrong forum .. Messianic-Judaism has always been extremely confusing for me .and somewhat of an oxymoron (a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction)
when i was growing up there were these Israelite born and raised IN Israel and inside the predominantly Jewish religion and customs of Judaism -that THEN converted and became believers in the Messiah JESUS. And they were generally referred to as "Messianic" because they now believed and followed JESUS the messiah and to do so LEFT Judaism.

now im trying to define who they really are ..are they the Hebrew roots movement in disguise ? have they become the Hebrew roots movement -
? I already know why many charismatic folks are flocking to it , because walking up a hill to wave flags and blow trumpets and use Hebrew language terms then go have a cup of tea and biscuits and pat each other on the back is far far easier then Actually going out and DOING what JESUS said to do .which gets a person mocked rejected hated and killed.

 

[Hoshiyya]

actually its global especially prevelant in the EU .. after all one of thier icons is a woman riding a beast

Whether you realize it or not, everything you describe is entirely descriptive of the American Evangelical/Protestant modes of religiosity and not at all congruent with say Catholicism, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Maronite, Coptic or other forms of Christianity.

Not once have I seen people "seeding the gospel" (as you describe it) in a Catholic church. Not once. I doubt any Catholic church, on any continent, has had a such a ritual take place in it. And I take it as obvious that Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Maronite, Coptic etc. churches would be as or less likely to have had such rituals take place in them.

 

[Alithis]

Whether you realize it or not, everything you describe is entirely descriptive of the American Evangelical/Protestant modes of religiosity and not at all congruent with say Catholicism, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Maronite, Coptic or other forms of Christianity.

Not once have I seen people "seeding the gospel" (as you describe it) in a Catholic church. Not once. I doubt any Catholic church, on any continent, has had a such a ritual take place in it. And I take it as obvious that Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Maronite, Coptic etc. churches would be as or less likely to have had such rituals take place in them.

actually charismatic catholics are very much into it,just not that particular one . they do and use ritual over and above obedience .. same thing
but your sidelining the topic ... the thread is titled MJ vs hebrew roots .. Hebrew roots being known for the practice of only considering feasts festival observation and rule of law to be obedience and only considering the use of Hebrew language names o be Valid ..ie the hebrew roots movement say that if you dont use the correct HEBREW from of the name of Jesus(then they cant agree on what that is yeshua or yehoshua etc ) that you are not saved etc .on this latter point of language -how does it compare to the MJ movement ?

 

[Hoshiyya]

actually charismatic catholics are very much into it,just not that particular one . they do and use ritual over and above obedience .. same thing
but your sidelining the topic ... the thread is titled MJ vs hebrew roots .. Hebrew roots being known for the practice of only considering feasts festival observation and rule of law to be obedience and only considering the use of Hebrew language names o be Valid ..ie the hebrew roots movement say that if you dont use the correct HEBREW from of the name of Jesus(then they cant agree on what that is yeshua or yehoshua etc ) that you are not saved etc .on this latter point of language -how does it compare to the MJ movement ?

I think you're defining quite a few things in a way unique to you.
You seem to have your own definitions of what is, and what contrasts, "MJ" from "The Hebrew Roots Movement", two terms which many use synonymously or without any of the baggage you attach to them, and you seem to think Catholic ritual qualifies as the "same thing" on the basis of ritual being ritual. You maybe also are unaware "charismatic Catholicism" is a term for a form of Catholicism inspired by the American movement called Pentecostalism.

I think most people don't define things the way you do but at the end of the day you just want to hear that "MJ" is the ideal form of "Hebrew Roots" which is like saying Judaism is the ideal form of Yiddishkeit.

 

[Hoshiyya]

but your sidelining the topic ... the thread is titled MJ vs hebrew roots ..

Being that I already gave you the answer in my first reply, I'm not sidelining anything. Notice how I used the term MJ (Messianic Judaism), you interpreted it to refer to the same people you previously characterized as being "Hebrew Roots" ("as opposed to MJ"). The answer is that MJ/HR movement is defined by ideas foreign to the Biblical Hebrew culture, ideas originating in the culture of the people that join these movements.

Now, who are the people joining these movements?
Mostly people with some connection to the modern Western culture and usually they have a background in Protestantism rather than Catholicism.
The Catholics who become or adopt elements of MJ tend to be Catholics who live in traditionally Protestant countries.

So I interpreted the thread as you asking why MJ/HR has these beliefs, and the answer is they bring with them the beliefs of their culture, and then I identified that culture for you.

But it seems you prefer to be told that there are two forms of MJ, one called MJ and one called HR, and the latter is bad but the former is good.
If this is so, then that is new to me, and I'm sure the terminology associated with these things is bound to change (again) soon anyway.

 

[tampasteve]

Mod Hat On​

@Alithis
@Hoshiyya
I am going to have to stop right there. For starters if you are not a member of this Faith Community, please do not tell our community what defines it or if it is or is not Biblical. Second, please sign into the SOP thread by posting that you have read the SOP and agree to abide by it before posting in the MJ forum again (just voting in the poll on the thread is not sufficient). Perhaps you think this was done in the past, but I cannot find where you did so. The thread to post in can be found HERE. This is the last in thread warning for users in this thread, future posts will be reported.

*EDIT*
I have been notified that some members are not on the SOP thread but they are MJ, however, their current faith is not visible currently. If this applies I apologize. But if you could sign into the SOP thread regardless it would be of much help for future searches of the thread.

Mod Hat Off

​

 

[tampasteve]

To the OP, weird and stereotypical elements can be found in all branches of Christianity and Messianic Judaism. Overall MJ will be more like a typically Jewish service and should be more influenced by Jewish thought. Hebrew Roots, in general, may or may not have a Jewish connection and tends to lean more towards replacement theology with all believers being "new Jews" and bound by the Law to some extent, often believing in "one Law" theology. Outside of those wide generalizations you will find many different modes of worship and beliefs. There is no over-arching organization in either movement, however, the MJ movement is more influenced by the MJAA, UMJC, and many congregations tend to be influenced by Hasidic thought as well.

 

[Open Heart]

hyello Mj forum i havnt visited for a long time .. but then iv been on forced exile for the crime of no compromise. something we must get used to .

i have noticed an increasing trend from non Israeli non Jewish decent evangelicals particularly from charismatic circles who are leaning across to MJ TYPE thinking and practices .And if i have a beef on the topic ..its with them not you lot
they dont actually focus on or DO much at all of what the lord Jesus said to do -that costs to much of ones own life to follow . so they do other "STUFF" they actually fill their church lives with that "STUFF"

they have vigils all night , they go and stand on hill tops and read prayers
they blow rams horns ( i noted this trend is being greatly enjoyed by the traders of rams horns in Jerusalem ) they wave flags ,dance around maps ... yes i kid you not .
One time i observed this new ageism practiced two ways with my own eyes .
1 - they placed a large city map on the ground and danced around it scattering wheat seed on it to "seed the gospel " !?!?
2 they took coal lumps from a welsh revival town and buried them in the ground to seed revival?????

(NOT mj practice i hope )both of these acts of taking elementary things of earth and used in ritual to "manipulate" a spiritual outcome are better known as WITCHCRAFT .
but i digressed .. then latest trend now is thwe swing to "hebrew roots " where they thing it is more spiritual, more correct , more righteous to use only the Hebrew language and terminology and names and references in hebrew only and that if you DONT then your not actually in truth or saved
rather cutting of the possibility of salvation to any nations who speak any other of the 22000+ dialects that GOD made at the time of nimrod .

how does the "hebrew roots movement" sit in the eyes of genuine MJ people ?

The Hebrew Roots movement has the belief that the commandments of the Torah are obligatory for all believers, Jew and Gentile. Although obedience does not earn salvation, true believers WILL obey. IOW anyone who doesn't i.e. keep the Sabbath or eat kosher is not saved.

Although it is less well known, many Hebrew Roots congregations are into a form of Replacement Theology where they believe they are the true Jews, and natural Jews are more or less disinherited.

The idea that someone is going to hell simply because they don't keep the Sabbath is totally toxic and absurd. Torah keeping is not about judging those who don't keep Torah. This doctrine demonizes the churches, something which MJ does not do, nor does this forum. By MJ I'm referring to the Messianic Judaism that is taught by the majority of synagogues, especially the two major denominations, MJAA and UMJC.

Also, all forms of Replacement Theology are anti-Semitic.

I think you are talking about the Hebrew Roots movement light, where non-denominational churches sort of play around with Jewish stuff, but don't really know what they are doing, and can get into some weird stuff. One famous example was a pastor getting wrapped in a Torah scroll, which is completely inappropriate and alarming. The heart is in the right place -- the desire to explore the roots of first century Christianity. But there is simply too much ignorance, AND as you said, a lot of superstition.

 

[TR Outrider]

As one fairly new to the HR movement I can only relay my viewpoint and my experience. I find there are many different beliefs in HR just as there are in the denominations of Christianity. HR people are Christians, many are coming out of Christian churches where certain practices have been learned that are not biblical. That is the one thing that I do know about HR, the majority believe in the whole bible and do not subscribe to any other book or teaching for guidance. Everything must be tested against the Word of God, the Prophets and the teachings of Jesus and his disciples. There are those who try to connect to the full Hebrew experience by adopting practices that were held during the time of the exodus. And many of us are in a constant state of learning. We know for sure, Jesus came to teach and instruct us in the "Word of God" which is his real name. We know Jesus/Yeshua was there at the beginning just as he said he was. And I see many of the HR movement get so legalistic as to have forgotten the real mission to Love God and to Love your brother. Most of us compare what is done today in the majority of Churches around the world to what is said in the bible and find most are stepping way outside the boundaries of God's word. Which is why there is an exodus fleeing the denominational church returning to the roots of the religion.

If I have learned one thing in my walk so far. No human on earth has it exactly right. It is a struggle for man to understand the wisdom of God, and some men will never be allowed to understand. Many are given bits and pieces to the puzzle which has made some men wise and some crazy. Not until Yeshua returns will we know the whole truth. But instead of denigrating each other we need to come together under Yeshua Ha-Mashiach as one body of Christ. Else we will parish alone in the wilderness. We need to follow the Bible and not add or take away from it. Christians should quit believing they are gentiles, if a Christian actually believes in the sacrifice of Jesus, they become a grafted in member of Israel at that point and are subject to the guidance to Israel from Yahweh and Yeshua. A gentile will not go to heaven according to the bible. They must believe in Jesus to receive salvation, no exceptions.

 

[Dave-W]

http://www.tikkuninternational.org/newsletters/dj-sep14.php

The Dangers of Jewish Roots Movements

By Dan Juster ThD

 

[tampasteve]

http://www.tikkuninternational.org/newsletters/dj-sep14.php

The Dangers of Jewish Roots Movements

By Dan Juster ThD

Very nice article, thank you for sharing!

It was well written and, I think, a good reminder, even for those of us that already agree with his statements.

 

[pat34lee]

By Dan Juster ThD

We went over this a few years ago.

I hate to say it, but Dan Juster is not someone to put
forth as an authority.

His #1 and #3 errors are not errors at all, but facts.

There is only one God, Yahweh, and he never changes.
His rules never change, and he has only one people.
He told us how to serve him throughout the bible, not
just in the New Testament.

 

[torahpointstoHim]

I've been following the Messianic teachings for years. And yes, this theology can be too "messy" specially by those who want to play around it. Messianics are formed from many different backgrounds, Charismatic, Pentecostals, Protestants and even Catholics. From what I've observed, the Messianics have opened my eyes into going back to our Bible. At first you will get all cringey with all the things that they introduce of which at first makes you want to become a Jew, buy all the Jewish stuff, pretend you have mastered the hebrew language and all the sad imitations of the jewish traditions. But as years go by, you mature and will figure out that no one got it perfectly. I would hear a lot of apologetics from those I listen to, and even opened avenues for non messianics, young hebrew scholars to have an open discussion without prejudice. For me, a messianic, regard myself as a gentile. I don't have to be a Jew to enjoy something new and progressive from the word of God. I hope that Christian Forums may not be an avenue of who's right, wrong or weird. But an open discussion where everyone wants to learn from each religious journey.