Mixed Messages.....

[StormyOne]

Moriah thanks for wrapping up the thread for me in a few posts.




Stormy,

In answer to this tragedy - I have no answer. Period. Right now we see through a glass darkly. One day these things will be revealed to us so that we may understand. But chances are not in this life time.

I still think that the text applies and helps us to see that God does allow bad things to happen or rather does not stop them from happening, and His answer is still the same trust Me, My grace is sufficient. He will help all those who call on Him. How He helps them is best left up to Him.

IMHO of course.

fair enough MVA, thank you for your reasoned response.... I agree that tragedy cannot be explained..... all we can do is help those experiencing suffering as we are able....

 

[mva1985]

fair enough MVA, thank you for your reasoned response.... I agree that tragedy cannot be explained..... all we can do is help those experiencing suffering as we are able....

I completely agree.

 

[Joe67]

The wine that brings life is only possible through our suffering and loss.

-1 x -1 = +1

Wisdom is something we drink. It can't be written on paper.

It's all around us. We daily experience loosing so that we can give life.

0, zero, must needs be, to have endless growth.

Only when we suffer the loss of all things is our service to others life-giving.

He said "should I ask the Father to deliver Me?" But when all that we are was imputed to Him and the bloody sweat pushed through the pores of His face, He cried out for the Father to take it away, if it were possible. He was heard in that He feared but His flesh still suffered and ceased breathing. But the grave could not hold Him becaused He loved the righteousnsess of His Father and hated the iniquity of religion. ( He didn't hate religion for the children need this, but He hated the money making schemes of religion that had become iniquitous and a glorification of the flesh ).

Bodily comfort is good. A cup of cold water in the name of Jesus is better.

Joe

 

[Adventtruth]

Well it did see some worthwhile contributions early on from you engaging in the subject. So if it bes truly mistaken then you have its apologies. And it will admit to contributing to derails as well. Life bes too short to bicker on & on.... How about we all just get back on topic now?

Thanks and please kindly forgive me as well...Lets get back on tract.

AT

 

[moicherie]

Doesn't that really boil down to "God doing something?"

For example, some could use your example in a sense to say that through Adolph Hitler, God was expecting humans to solve human problems. A Neo-Nazi group might be prone to say that.

However, if Adolph Hitler was acting outside of God's will (which I believe he was) then what was the motivating factor that inspired Hitler to gas and burn millions of people?

Perhaps the same motivating factor that made the COI plunge and pillage the land of Canaan, rape and kidnap women as wives all in God's name?

 

[moicherie]

Ok interesting thread even when it go totally off track...lol
Now as for the OP one other answer we can add to the A,B,C response could be D 'we don't know'. The day Christiandom gave the world the impression we knew all the answers is the day we got into trouble when it comes to life. As a child my mother knew more than me, if I asked her something and she did not know it did not lessen my respect for her position as my mother yet the church seems to think if we had the same mindset we would lose the worlds respect. Well when we come down of the pedestal of 'fountain of all knowledge' we might gain more respect than we lose. Christiandoms arrogance has been its downfall.

 

[Joe67]

fair enough MVA, thank you for your reasoned response.... I agree that tragedy cannot be explained..... all we can do is help those experiencing suffering as we are able....

Stormy,

Explanation and understanding are two distinct qualities. Neither of them require words. Explanation is the outward manifestation of the inward understanding.

In Jesus of Nazareth God gave that which began the revelation of the mystery of earth's pleasures and pains.
To the elemental mind sweet is good, and bitter is bad. Ask any child.
Youth desire super sweet, but will suffer some to achieve the super bubbly.
We who are old do not despise the child or judge the youth, but we do not desire to be managed/led by either, for they do not understand, neither indeed can they.

The mature,who are suffering, understand why there is pain in the world.

Childhood, youth, maturity of the inward parts is not determined by the numbers of trips around the sun.

Joe

 

[BobRyan]

What then is the point of saying that God cares, God will take care of you, that God watches over you when that is not the case? If God does not intervene, then why pray for protection or deliverance from harm when that may not happen? Your last point suggests then that for people to look forward to (and appreciate) heaven they must experience hell here and now?

#1. There are such things as safe houses for abused women
#2. There is such a thing as "Law" that puts people in prison for abuse.
#3. There is such a thing as "churches" that help abused women.
#4. There is such a thing as prayer that LEADS you to one of these.


ALL of these are the act of God for "every good and perfect gift" comes down from the Father of lights according to James.

But having said that - there is a lot of crime and suffering in this world. The innocent are killed or starved etc. In the Bible we are told that satan is "the god of this world" 2Cor 4:4

in the Bible (Matt 4) Satan offers to turn the world over to Christ saying "all these things I will give you if..." -- essentially arguing that "the kindgoms of this world are MINE and I give them to whom I wish".

When God comes - he will destroy the wicked according to 2Thess chapter 1. ALL the wicked who "obey not the gospel" according to that chapter.

And He is coming soon.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Avonia]

But having said that - there is a lot of crime and suffering in this world. The innocent are killed or starved etc. In the Bible we are told that satan is "the god of this world" 2Cor 4:4

Bad things happen because people serve self. It's time for us to understood more about our primal fears instead of blaming everything on a satan.

If the satan goes on vacation in 2009, we won't know it.

 

[StormyOne]

#1. There are such things as safe houses for abused women
#2. There is such a thing as "Law" that puts people in prison for abuse.
#3. There is such a thing as "churches" that help abused women.
#4. There is such a thing as prayer that LEADS you to one of these.


ALL of these are the act of God for "every good and perfect gift" comes down from the Father of lights according to James.

But having said that - there is a lot of crime and suffering in this world. The innocent are killed or starved etc. In the Bible we are told that satan is "the god of this world" 2Cor 4:4

in the Bible (Matt 4) Satan offers to turn the world over to Christ saying "all these things I will give you if..." -- essentially arguing that "the kindgoms of this world are MINE and I give them to whom I wish".

When God comes - he will destroy the wicked according to 2Thess chapter 1. ALL the wicked who "obey not the gospel" according to that chapter.

And He is coming soon.

in Christ,

Bob

The bible also says that "the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof" or that the cattle on 1000 hills are his, that God sets up kingdoms and takes them down... so you have a conundrum, who does the world belong to? I haven't read where God gave up ownership......

So your solution is that God will one day come and destroy the wicked?

 

[AzA]

So your solution is that God will one day come and destroy the wicked?

Why wait?
We can get a head start on perfection.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Why wait?
We can get a head start on perfection.

The more closely one adheres to SDA teachings, the more one believes that we must get a head start on perfection.

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

The more closely one adheres to SDA teachings, the more one believes that we must get a head start on perfection.

BFA

perhaps, but only if the person thinks that everything that is taught in the sda church is correct and without error....

 

[ricker]

perhaps, but only if the person thinks that everything that is taught in the sda church is correct and without error....

I don't think any church is correct without error.

1 Cor. 13
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

 

[AzA]

The more closely one adheres to SDA teachings, the more one believes that we must get a head start on perfection.

Yes, it becomes quite the quandary. And the "Stop" sign becomes more difficult to stop at.

 

[StormyOne]

I don't think any church is correct without error.

1 Cor. 13
12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

agreed, which makes the proclamation of any church i.e. "we have The Truth" tenuous...

 

[Byfaithalone1]

perhaps, but only if the person thinks that everything that is taught in the sda church is correct and without error....

. . . . and/or adheres to the 28 fundamental beliefs.

BFA

 

[Avonia]

agreed, which makes the proclamation of any church i.e. "we have The Truth" tenuous...

This is more true of Christianity as a whole than the quirks of any one variety.

 

[AzA]

This is more true of Christianity as a whole than the quirks of any one variety.

We could easily expand this comment to include a number of other religious and social philosophies. I'm enjoying Eric Hoffer's work on mass movements at the moment, and it's quite insightful.

 

[Avonia]

We could easily expand this comment to include a number of other religious and social philosophies. I'm enjoying Eric Hoffer's work on mass movements at the moment, and it's quite insightful.

On the Hoffer note, Christianity's insistence on our wretchedness is simply egotism.

"Nothing makes one so vain as being told one is a sinner." - Oscar Wilde