Mixed Messages.....

[StormyOne]

Why do you suppose such men were inspired to write much on the subject of righteousness?

BFA

the same reason why we have been inspired to discuss God and the things he has created.... we were created with curiosity about the world around us, and at times we gain insight into that world and the Creator....

 

[Byfaithalone1]

the same reason why we have been inspired to discuss God and the things he has created.... we were created with curiosity about the world around us, and at times we gain insight into that world and the Creator....

Were such men inspired when they wrote that man's righteousness does not exceed that of filthy rags?

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

Were such men inspired when they wrote that man's righteousness does not exceed that of filthy rags?

BFA

I have no idea if when they wrote that they were inspired or not.... given that a person's "state of being" is not a separate entity from that person, newer thinking would suggest that what they expressed at that time was incomplete. Righteousness is not something that humans manufacture, it comes from the Creator... so all the creature can be is what they were created to be.... the assessment of righteousness can only be made by The Creator... The question then has to be, "what did God create humankind to be?"

 

[sentipente]

Were such men inspired when they wrote that man's righteousness does not exceed that of filthy rags?

BFA

Could it be that you are giving that phrase a meaning that is not what the author has in mind? Exactly what do you think he meant by that? Whether he was inspired or not is really immaterial. Being inspired does not enforce accuracy of understanding or delivery. If the Creator wanted to be certain that everyone received a particular message he would not use middle men. He knows those middle men are fallible.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Could it be that you are giving that phrase a meaning that is not what the author has in mind?

Yes, that could be. Since there is none who understand, I certainly see myself as being a part of that "none."

Exactly what do you think he meant by that?

What did Paul mean when he summarized the writings of Isaiah (Isaiah 41) and wrote that there is none righteous, not even one; that there is none who understand (Romans 3) ?

One would be hard pressed to argue that Isaiah intended to communicate that human righteousness is of high value and importance (Isaiah 64).

Was Paul inspired when he wrote that the whole world is a prisoner of sin (Galatians 3 and Romans 7:14)?

Do these concepts have any value for us? If so, what is their relevance?

Whether he was inspired or not is really immaterial.

I agree completely.

Being inspired does not enforce accuracy of understanding or delivery.

Again, I agree.

If the Creator wanted to be certain that everyone received a particular message he would not use middle men.

And yet there are things that are true. And other things that aren't. And there are often a million shades of grey in between. I don't possess the magic key that unlocks all secrets. If you do, you might make quite a profit on ebay.

He knows those middle men are fallible.

Men are fallible. God is not. Men are mortal. God is sovereign. What God wishes to communicate will be communicated.

"Then the LORD answered Job out of the storm. He said: "Who is this that darkens my counsel with words without knowledge? Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me. Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone- while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy? "Who shut up the sea behind doors when it burst forth from the womb, when I made the clouds its garment and wrapped it in thick darkness, when I fixed limits for it and set its doors and bars in place, when I said, 'This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt'? Have you ever given orders to the morning, or shown the dawn its place, that it might take the earth by the edges and shake the wicked out of it? The earth takes shape like clay under a seal; its features stand out like those of a garment. The wicked are denied their light, and their upraised arm is broken. "Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea or walked in the recesses of the deep? Have the gates of death been shown to you? Have you seen the gates of the shadow of death? Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth? Tell me, if you know all this." Job 38
​

BFA

 

[sentipente]

"There is none righteous." That's a rather absolute statement. Was Paul really the chief of all sinners or was that just garden variety hyperbole? I think it is unfortunate that we assume that these men never used figures of speech.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

"There is none righteous." That's a rather absolute statement. Was Paul really the chief of all sinners or was that just garden variety hyperbole? I think it is unfortunate that we assume that these men never used figures of speech.

That language had its origin with Isaiah. Paul merely added to it. Whether his words are to be taken literally or figuratively, one could easily gather that man did not view highly the concept of human righteousness. Perhaps this is the reason he indicated that the whole world is a prisoner of sin. Does this mean the whole world or something less than the whole world? One thing is clear. If a person uses hyperbole, they use it to communicate a message. What is Paul's message? What is Isaiah's message?

BFA

 

[Avonia]

Was Paul inspired when he wrote that the whole world is a prisoner of sin (Galatians 3 and Romans 7:14)?

Do these concepts have any value for us? If so, what is their relevance?

Someone may be inspired and not have a very complete understanding of the issue they are writing about. Given the perspective Paul was writing from, and what he knew about the world, his writings make perfect sense.

 

[StormyOne]

That language had its origin with Isaiah. Paul merely added to it. Whether his words are to be taken literally or figuratively, one could easily gather that man did not view highly the concept of human righteousness. Perhaps this is the reason he indicated that the whole world is a prisoner of sin. Does this mean the whole world or something less than the whole world? One thing is clear. If a person uses hyperbole, they use it to communicate a message. What is Paul's message? What is Isaiah's message?

BFA

The assumption being that Paul or Isaiah wrote what it is said they wrote.... not confirmed that they really did....

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The assumption being that Paul or Isaiah wrote what it is said they wrote.... not confirmed that they really did....

Or perhaps, in the case of some, the assumption is that Paul's or Isaiah's words have not been accurately maintained.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Double post. My apologies.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Someone may be inspired and not have a very complete understanding of the issue they are writing about. Given the perspective Paul was writing from, and what he knew about the world, his writings make perfect sense.

It is my understanding that Paul and Isaiah did not view human righteousness as having high importance or value. If this was in fact their perspective on the subject, then I merely confirm that I share their viewpoint.

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

Or perhaps, in the case of some, the assumption is that Paul's or Isaiah's words have not been accurately maintained.

BFA

yes, that too....

 

[sentipente]

Or perhaps, in the case of some, the assumption is that Paul's or Isaiah's words have not been accurately maintained.

BFA

Why do you insist that God chose to maintain the accurate words of Paul and Isaiah when He clearly refused to maintain the integrity of the human race as He created it? Wouldn't that be a poor use of one's abilities?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Why do you insist that God chose to maintain the accurate words of Paul and Isaiah?

Why do you insist that He did not?

Is God capable of maintaining the accurate words of Paul and Isaiah if He chose to do so?

Do you understand everything that God does and the reasons why He does it? I don't.

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

Why do you insist that He did not?

Is God capable of maintaining the accurate words of Paul and Isaiah if He chose to do so?

Do you understand everything that God does and the reasons why He does it? I don't.

BFA

it is becoming more apparent (via the ongoing study of biblical languages) that those words (accurate or not) attributed to Paul or Isaiah probably weren't their words.... So then, God not only chose not to preserve the accuracy of the words, but he chose to not even preserve their words.... remember all we have is copies of copies of copies... nothing original...

 

[Byfaithalone1]

it is becoming more apparent (via the ongoing study of biblical languages) that those words (accurate or not) attributed to Paul or Isaiah probably weren't their words....

This is quite a claim. What's the basis of such a claim? Why would a person conclude that your opinion on this subject is "becoming more apparent?" If we were to examine multiple translations and languages in our examination of Isaiah 41, Isaiah 64, Romans 7 and Galatians 3, would we be any closer to believing that God values and holds in high regard the righteousness of men? If so, show us.

So then, God not only chose not to preserve the accuracy of the words, but he chose to not even preserve their words....

How can we move on to a "so then" statement, when your initial claim has yet to be substantiated?

remember all we have is copies of copies of copies... nothing original...

Is God is capable of preserving copies of copies of copies if He so chooses?

"But if it were I, I would appeal to God;
I would lay my cause before him.
He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed,
miracles that cannot be counted.
He bestows rain on the earth;
he sends water upon the countryside.
The lowly he sets on high,
and those who mourn are lifted to safety.
He thwarts the plans of the crafty,
so that their hands achieve no success. He catches the wise in their craftiness,
and the schemes of the wily are swept away."
​

BFA

 

[StormyOne]

This is quite a claim. What's the basis of such a claim? Why would a person conclude that your opinion on this subject is "becoming more apparent?" If we were to examine multiple translations and languages in our examination of Isaiah 41, Isaiah 64, Romans 7 and Galatians 3, would we be any closer to believing that God values and holds in high regard the righteousness of men? If so, show us.



How can we move on to a "so then" statement, when your initial claim has yet to be substantiated?



Is God is capable of preserving copies of copies of copies if He so chooses?

"But if it were I, I would appeal to God;
I would lay my cause before him.
He performs wonders that cannot be fathomed,
miracles that cannot be counted.
He bestows rain on the earth;
he sends water upon the countryside.
The lowly he sets on high,
and those who mourn are lifted to safety.
He thwarts the plans of the crafty,
so that their hands achieve no success. He catches the wise in their craftiness,
and the schemes of the wily are swept away."
​

BFA

when you research how the bible was compiled, how biblical language scholars can tell one linguistic style from another, how discrepancies were introduced into the copies, then we can have this conversation.... if you choose not to gather some collateral info, then nothing else for us to discuss on this issue.... as for my "claim," it is as valid as those who would suggest to you that the bible is the "word of God....."

 

[StormyOne]

then again, you may have read some of the same info I have and arrived at a different conclusion... such is life....

 

[sentipente]

Why do you insist that He did not?

Is God capable of maintaining the accurate words of Paul and Isaiah if He chose to do so?

Do you understand everything that God does and the reasons why He does it? I don't.

BFA

Why did you choose to excise the last part of my statement? That is a bit dishonest. It is difficult to have intelligent discourse with anyone who would pull a stunt like that.