Misunderstanding Salvation

[Acts2:38]

Ephesians 1:12-13 King James Version (KJV)

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Faith is not an "action verb." It means TRUST. Read your Bible.

In all that information straight from the bible, this is the only thing left you have to say. You have repeatedly contradicted yourself and probably, deep down inside, know that your argument/opinion on faith only is lost. So you shoot the same verse to try to disprove what I said was in the bible.

Look, watch what I do right here:

Luke 13:3

It doesn't say we need faith in this verse, does that mean I don't need it?

It doesn't say we need to confess in this verse, does that mean I don't need to?

It doesn't say we need to trust in Jesus, does that mean I don't have to?

Your grabbing (cherry picking by the way) piece of something. I piece of scripture. That is why you need to, how did you put it, "Conflate", the whole gospel. Combine it all. You can't just grab one verse and say "Well, I don't need to confess" or "Well because it says this here, I don't need that there". That is preposterous to think that way.

If its in the gospel YOU OBEY IT. If Jesus said, "Baptize" you do it. If Paul preached it on behalf of our Lord and Savior, you do it. Therefore it is necessary for salvation John 14:15; John 15:14.

There is nothing wrong with knowing that what you believed before is false. The only wrong you can do now is continue in that false doctrine. Set aside that pride friend and be counted among Christs church.

 

[Libertas]

Typical unsaved person thinking faith, a noun, is somehow a verb and every single commandment in the Bible is a salvation passage.

 

[Libertas]

In all that information straight from the bible, this is the only thing left you have to say. You have repeatedly contradicted yourself and probably, deep down inside, know that your argument/opinion on faith only is lost. So you shoot the same verse to try to disprove what I said was in the bible.

That's actually NOT "all I have left to say." The Bible is CRYSTAL CLEAR that God's righteousness is imputed onto us BY FAITH: 2 Corinthians 5:21, Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6, Romans 4:5, Romans 3:22, Romans 9:30, Philippians 3:9, Romans 10:4, Romans 4:13, Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1, Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:30

And by the way, you learn in second grade English that faith is a noun and not a verb.

Your works salvation doctrine is nonsensical and 100% heresy. I'll go ahead and explain the Ephesians passage since you didn't even bother to respond to it properly, but first:

John 6:47 King James Version (KJV)

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Even a toddler can understand these verses. The Bible obviously teaches you must believe, then you will HAVE (present tense) everlasting life. So, if everlasting life can be lost...it wasn't everlasting. It was temporary. According to you - everlasting life is not everlasting and God is a liar. OK!

Belief/faith means TRUST. You must trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, or you're trusting in works - and you'll be working yourself straight to hell:

Ephesians 1:12-13 King James Version (KJV)

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

You are commanded to BELIEVE the gospel, to trust Jesus Christ for salvation - NOT your own works.

Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Your works will leave you standing condemned before God. Yes, I know verse 21 refers to the will of the father. What is the will of the father?

John 6:40 King James Version (KJV)

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Once again, the Bible is clear. If you were saved you'd see it.

Look, watch what I do right here:

Luke 13:3

It doesn't say we need faith in this verse, does that mean I don't need it?

It doesn't say we need to confess in this verse, does that mean I don't need to?

It doesn't say we need to trust in Jesus, does that mean I don't have to?

Your grabbing (cherry picking by the way) piece of something. I piece of scripture. That is why you need to, how did you put it, "Conflate", the whole gospel. Combine it all. You can't just grab one verse and say "Well, I don't need to confess" or "Well because it says this here, I don't need that there". That is preposterous to think that way.

Look, watch what I do right here - destroy your nonsensical heresy:

Luke 13:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Wow, one verse that doesn't perfectly outline the salvation plan - that must mean all my proof texts aren't complete either!

Yeah...

I think it's worth mentioning that you probably don't even know what "repent" means. Did you know that God "repents" more times in the Bible than man? Not one single time in my King James Bible have I ever read the phrase "repent of your sins." So tell me, does God sin?

I'm not "cherry picking" anything. Verse after verse after verse in the Bible says salvation is by FAITH:

John 3:15, "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John 3.18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

John 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Acts 16:31, "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

You TOTALLY IGNORE each and every one of these to promote lies that'll send yourself and everyone who buys it straight to hell. Wake up.

Here is God "repenting:"

Genesis 6:6, "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

I Samuel 15:35, "And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel."

Exodus 32:14 "And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

Jonah 3:9, 10, "Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Amos 7:3, "The Lord repented for this: It shall not be, saith the Lord."

Amos 7:6, "The Lord repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord God."

If you actually understood the word "repent" you'd know it means CHANGE OF MIND. Change from what? In the verse you cited, it means repent and change your mind from a state of unbelief towards a state of BELIEF.

Acts 17:30, "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent."

Notice God commandeth all men every where to repent. Repent from what? Repent from the thing that keeps them lost, and that's unbelief. What corrects this? Look at Acts 17:34, "Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Dammaris, and others with them." Notice it said, "certain men believed."

So, when he said, "repent," he was saying "repent from unbelief and believe," because just as in Acts 2:38 and 41 a command was given to repent, and the believing was the obedience to that command. They changed their mind about belief. They decided to believe instead of not believe.

If its in the gospel YOU OBEY IT. If Jesus said, "Baptize" you do it. If Paul preached it on behalf of our Lord and Savior, you do it. Therefore it is necessary for salvation John 14:15; John 15:14.

There is nothing wrong with knowing that what you believed before is false. The only wrong you can do now is continue in that false doctrine. Set aside that pride friend and be counted among Christs church.

I'm not even going to address your arrogance in the second paragraph. All I have to say is you're totally confused about what passages are for SALVATION and what passages are COMMANDS. Of course we ought to get baptized, I never said you shouldn't. Every Bible believing Christian should be baptized. Every Bible believing Christian should repent from sin and obey God and live righteously, I'm not denying that. I want my church to preach strongly against sin and hold its members accountable.

What you're missing is - turning from sin does NOT get you saved. What gets you saved and secure for all eternity (John 10:27-30; I Peter 1:5; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:35-39; John 5:24, Ephesians 1:12-13) is FAITH.

You then do the WORK to store up treasures in Heaven, to glorify God the father, to remain in good standing at your church, to not receive chastisement from God and to not grieve the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is clear that slavation is by faith alone and anyone trusting their own works will go to Hell. At judgement day you'll be pleading with Christ to let you in based on all your "good works," so-called, and he'll have nothing to say but:

I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It's not too late to repent of this heretical garbage and believe and TRUST only in JESUS for your salvation.

 

[Acts2:38]

Typical unsaved person thinking faith, a noun, is somehow a verb and every single commandment in the Bible is a salvation passage.

I'm not wasting my time anymore. Jesus will say "depart from me, I never knew you" to those who trust in their works for salvation. You've made your bed, enjoy it.

Mark 16:16 = He that believeth Strongs G4100 Pisteuo, A VERB.

Ephesians 1:12 "first trusted" a verb here. Strongs G4276 proelpizo

Ephesian 1:13 "trusted, after that ye heard" Strongs G191 akouo a verb / "after that ye believed" Strongs G4100 Pisteuo, a verb


You cast judgment by saying I am unsaved? I was a born again Christian 5 years ago for your information.

I clearly proved to you that baptism IS PART of everyone's salvation. What is so hard to understand about Romans 6?

I shown you that it is an action word, verb.

Besides, I am actually done speaking with you since you admitted your stance wrong and indirectly conceded that baptism is part of salvation.

See your indirect concession here:

Can a person be saved by ignoring what God commanded to be done?

What does this say, Colossians 2:11-13?

What does this say, Galatians 3:26-27?

No, of course not. God commanded you to BELIEVE to be saved.

when I asked "Can a person be saved by ignoring what God commanded to be done?"

You just contradicted your whole argument right here. Bam, case close, you just conceded and you don't even know it. Everyone here sees what you said right here. Just obey the gospel and what it commands and your saved. If you don't, your not saved.

Baptism is a wonderful thing, but it's not necessary for salvation. It's a commandment from God.

Another contradictory statement. Your either plain blind or in denial now.

For some reason you admit it but then back track because you realize that you agree with baptism. And you do not, for some reason, wish to agree even though you typed it up here agreeing.

"Its commanded by God to do, but you don't have to do it" - you

"What? That doesn't make sense. You either agree or you don't but you can't choose both stances" - me

See what I was going through here?

 

[Libertas]

Mark 16:16 = He that believeth Strongs G4100 Pisteuo, A VERB.

Ephesians 1:12 "first trusted" a verb here. Strongs G4276 proelpizo

Ephesian 1:13 "trusted, after that ye heard" Strongs G191 akouo a verb / "after that ye believed" Strongs G4100 Pisteuo, a verb


You cast judgment by saying I am unsaved? I was a born again Christian 5 years ago for your information.

I clearly proved to you that baptism IS PART of everyone's salvation. What is so hard to understand about Romans 6?

I shown you that it is an action word, verb.

Besides, I am actually done speaking with you since you admitted your stance wrong and indirectly conceded that baptism is part of salvation.

See your indirect concession here:










For some reason you admit it but then back track because you realize that you agree with baptism. And you do not, for some reason, wish to agree even though you typed it up here agreeing.

"Its commanded by God to do, but you don't have to do it" - you

"What? That doesn't make sense. You either agree or you don't but you can't choose both stances" - me

See what I was going through here?

Okay, I'll explain for the 500th time.

A COMMANDMENT and a SALVATION passage are DIFFERENT. Thou shalt not steal is a COMMAND. Believe on the Lord Jesus is a SALVATION passage.

Baptism is a command. As a saved Christian, why would I willfully tell someone to disobey God's commands? OF COURSE every Bible believing Christian ought to be baptized - AFTER they are saved by FAITH.

Faith gets you saved. Baptism, turning from sin, etc are things you SHOULD be doing AFTER salvation. If you fail to do so, God will chasten you but you cannot LOSE your salvation (John 10:27-30; I Peter 1:5; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:35-39; John 5:24, Ephesians 1:12-13). I explained this clearly in the post above but you ignored it because you have nothing.

Did the eunuch that was baptized in the desert believe first or get baptized first? He BELIEVED first. This isn't difficult to understand.

I gave you verse after verse after verse. Read your Bible.

 

[Acts2:38]

That's actually NOT "all I have left to say." The Bible is CRYSTAL CLEAR that God's righteousness is imputed onto us BY FAITH: 2 Corinthians 5:21, Genesis 15:6, Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6, Romans 4:5, Romans 3:22, Romans 9:30, Philippians 3:9, Romans 10:4, Romans 4:13, Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1, Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:30

And by the way, you learn in second grade English that faith is a noun and not a verb.

Your works salvation doctrine is nonsensical and 100% heresy. I'll go ahead and explain the Ephesians passage since you didn't even bother to respond to it properly, but first:

John 6:47 King James Version (KJV)

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Even a toddler can understand these verses. The Bible obviously teaches you must believe, then you will HAVE (present tense) everlasting life. So, if everlasting life can be lost...it wasn't everlasting. It was temporary. So according to you - everlasting life is not everlasting and God is a liar. OK!

Belief/faith means TRUST. You must trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation, or you're trusting in works - and you'll be working yourself straight to hell:

Ephesians 1:12-13 King James Version (KJV)

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

You are commanded to BELIEVE the gospel, to trust Jesus Christ for salvation - NOT your own works.

Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Your works will leave you standing condemned before God. Yes, I know verse 21 refers to the will of the father. What is the will of the father?

John 6:40 King James Version (KJV)

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Once again, the Bible is clear. If you were saved you'd see it.



Look, watch what I do right here - destroy your nonsensical heresy:

Luke 13:3 King James Version (KJV)
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Wow, one verse that doesn't perfectly outline the salvation plan - that must mean all my proof texts aren't complete either!

Yeah...

I think it's worth mentioning that you probably don't even know what "repent" means. Did you know that God "repents" more times in the Bible than man? Not one single time in my King James Bible have I ever read the phrase "repent of your sins." So tell me, does God sin?

I'm not "cherry picking" anything. Verse after verse after verse in the Bible says salvation is by FAITH:

John 3:15, "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John 3.18, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

John 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Acts 16:31, "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

You TOTALLY IGNORE each and every one of these to promote lies that'll send yourself and everyone who buys it straight to hell. Wake up.

Here is God "repenting:"

Genesis 6:6, "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."

I Samuel 15:35, "And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel."

Exodus 32:14 "And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

Jonah 3:9, 10, "Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."

Amos 7:3, "The Lord repented for this: It shall not be, saith the Lord."

Amos 7:6, "The Lord repented for this: This also shall not be, saith the Lord God."

If you actually understood the word "repent" you'd know it means CHANGE OF MIND. Change from what? In the verse you cited, it means repent and change your mind from a state of unbelief towards a state of BELIEF.

Acts 17:30, "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent."

Notice God commandeth all men every where to repent. Repent from what? Repent from the thing that keeps them lost, and that's unbelief. What corrects this? Look at Acts 17:34, "Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Dammaris, and others with them." Notice it said, "certain men believed."

So, when he said, "repent," he was saying "repent from unbelief and believe," because just as in Acts 2:38 and 41 a command was given to repent, and the believing was the obedience to that command. They changed their mind about belief. They decided to believe instead of not believe.



I'm not even going to address your arrogance in the second paragraph. All I have to say is you're totally confused about what passages are for SALVATION and what passages are COMMANDS. Of course we ought to get baptized, I never said you shouldn't. Every Bible believing Christian should be baptized. Every Bible believing Christian should repent from sin and obey God and live righteously, I'm not denying that. I want my church to preach strongly against sin and hold its members accountable.

What you're missing is - turning from sin does NOT get you saved. What gets you saved and secure for all eternity (John 10:27-30; I Peter 1:5; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:35-39; John 5:24, Ephesians 1:12-13) is FAITH.

You then do the WORK to store up treasures in Heaven, to glorify God the father, to remain in good standing at your church, to not receive chastisement from God and to not grieve the Holy Spirit.

The Bible is clear that slavation is by faith alone and anyone trusting their own works will go to Hell. At judgement day you'll be pleading with Christ to let you in based on all your "good works," so-called, and he'll have nothing to say but:

I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

It's not too late to repent of this heretical garbage and believe and TRUST only in JESUS for your salvation.

In just three different scriptures, I will show you that baptism is necessary. I will show you it is part of your salvation. This is the whole point I have been trying to make.

What does this say, Colossians 2:11-13?

What does this say, Galatians 3:26-27?

What does this say, Romans 6:1-4?

Case closed. If you cant see this I dont know what else I can do. My you have a blessed day.

 

[Libertas]

In just three different scriptures, I will show you that baptism is necessary. I will show you it is part of your salvation. This is the whole point I have been trying to make.

What does this say, Colossians 2:11-13?

What does this say, Galatians 3:26-27?

What does this say, Romans 6:1-4?

Case closed. If you cant see this I dont know what else I can do. My you have a blessed day.

Let me get this straight. I give you:

John 10:27-30, John 1:12, John 3:14-18, John 5:24, John 11:25-26, John 20:31, John 6:47 I Peter 1:5; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:35-39; John 5:24, Ephesians 1:12-13, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Genesis 15:6, Romans 10:9, Romans 10:1, Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6, Romans 4:5, Romans 3:22, Romans 9:30, Philippians 3:9, Romans 10:4, Romans 4:13, Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1, Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:30, 1 John 5:13, 1 John 5:1, Acts 10:43, Acts 13:39, Acts 16:30-31, Acts 26:18

And you think you won the argument by citing three passages that have nothing to do with salvation. Okay, let's take a look at your proof texts (which I've already debunked, I guess you missed it) -

Colossians 2:11-13 King James Version (KJV)
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

I'm not sure what your point is or how this proves baptism is necessary for salvation.

Do me a favor, can you find me one single verse in the Bible or one single story from the Bible where someone who believed on the Lord Jesus but was NOT baptized was condemned? Chapter and verse please.

Galatians 3:26-27 King James Version (KJV)
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Do you realize this actually proves MY side and not yours? Paul is speaking to children of God by FAITH who have been baptized. So? Where does it say believers who haven't been baptized are damned?

Let's take a practical application for a second. Imagine if someone were to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and pray the sinner's prayer. Then, the person died in a car accident while driving to Church to get baptized.

According to you, he/she is going straight to Hell. Thank GOD your gospel is total heresy.

Romans 6:1-4 King James Version (KJV)
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

When you were a child, you theoretically COULD disobey your father - he could never NOT be your father and you could never NOT be his son. Does that mean you have a license to disobey your father? No. Why not? Maybe to avoid getting punished. Maybe out of love for your father.

God IS our Heavenly father and he makes it abundantly clear that once we're born again - we can't "lose" our salvation. (John 10:27-30; I Peter 1:5; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:35-39; John 5:24, Ephesians 1:12-13)

However, if we choose to rebel against him He will chasten on us this earth (Hebrews 12:8, Hebrews 12:5-11, Jeremiah 31:18, Job 5:17, Psalm 73:14, Psalm 94:12, Psalm 118:18, Proverbs 3:11, Revelation 3:19, Deuteronomy 8:5, Proverbs 3:12, 1 Corinthians 11:32)

Basically, Paul is telling a group of saved people NOT to sin. I don't see how this proves anything. I would have said the same thing. In the next verse he explains what baptism is.

Are these seriously your proof texts?

Once again, I have all these:

John 10:27-30, John 1:12, John 3:14-18, John 5:24, John 11:25-26, John 20:31, John 6:47 I Peter 1:5; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:35-39; John 5:24, Ephesians 1:12-13, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Genesis 15:6, Romans 10:9, Romans 10:1, Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6, Romans 4:5, Romans 3:22, Romans 9:30, Philippians 3:9, Romans 10:4, Romans 4:13, Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1, Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:30, 1 John 5:13, 1 John 5:1, Acts 10:43, Acts 13:39, Acts 16:30-31, Acts 26:18, Titus 3:5

I let the BIBLE define the word "believe" for me in Ephesians 1:12-13, I don't need some man-made book to tell me what a word means. The Bible clearly defines "believe" as "trust."

You still have yet to explain to me how eternal life, which is given to someone the second they believe on the Lord Jesus and trust in Him for salvation, can somehow NOT be eternal. Eternal life is not eternal according to you and God is a liar.

John 6:47 King James Version (KJV)

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath (PRESENT TENSE) everlasting life.

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have (PRESENT TENSE) everlasting life.

 

[Acts2:38]

Let me get this straight. I give you:

John 10:27-30, John 1:12, John 3:14-18, John 5:24, John 11:25-26, John 20:31, John 6:47 I Peter 1:5; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:35-39; John 5:24, Ephesians 1:12-13, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Genesis 15:6, Romans 10:9, Romans 10:1, Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6, Romans 4:5, Romans 3:22, Romans 9:30, Philippians 3:9, Romans 10:4, Romans 4:13, Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1, Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:30, 1 John 5:13, 1 John 5:1, Acts 10:43, Acts 13:39, Acts 16:30-31, Acts 26:18

And you think you won the argument by citing three passages that have nothing to do with salvation. Okay, let's take a look at your proof texts (which I've already debunked, I guess you missed it) -

It does not matter HOW many verses you can find, the fact that I can find verses proving baptism as part of your salvation, even one verse, proves that it is indeed so. I see those verses you put, I agree with them no doubt, however you only see the ones you put down and don't see the baptism as necessary for salvation. Besides, through the course of this thread, I have posted many verses.

Those verses I put down show you, but you missed it. I will explain below where you "attempted" to explain.

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

I'm not sure what your point is or how this proves baptism is necessary for salvation.

See the whole "buried with him in baptism" part? This is why I say you are blind. Not to insult you, but because you really just don't see this.

"wherein also ye are risen with him" / "through THE faith" (not "through faith" if that's what you missed)

Do me a favor, can you find me one single verse in the Bible or one single story from the Bible where someone who believed on the Lord Jesus but was NOT baptized was condemned? Chapter and verse please.

Just one? Of someone who believed but didn't press any further?

If this will make you a "believer" here you go:

John 12:42-43, Like I said before, you don't say "I believe I can get to work today" and still sit on the couch. You have to actually get up and drive to work.

Let's take a practical application for a second. Imagine if someone were to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and pray the sinner's prayer. Then, the person died in a car accident while driving to Church to get baptized.

According to you, he/she is going straight to Hell. Thank GOD your gospel is total heresy.

Your not the first to throw this thought out there.

People imagine the possibility of a person believing in Christ but before he can act on it he is killed. "What will happen to the poor man?" they moan. They want someone to say, "he will be saved," so that they can say, "See, you can be saved without baptism!"

What they don't realize is that they are diminishing the power of God.

2 Peter 3:9, If a man turns his heart to God, God is not going to take his life at the last second so as to prevent his salvation. The Lord God is not like that.

Can a person be saved with confessing Christ?
Matthew 10:32-33
Romans 10:8-10

But what will happen to him if he dies before he has a chance to open his mouth and make a confession?

And what about repentance? Can a person be saved without changing their life?
Luke 13:3 and 5
Acts 3:19-20

Now some want to blur the lines and say that faith, confession, and repentance are all the same thing. But I'd like to point out that you believe in your heart, but confession is made with the mouth and repentance means doing things differently. Acts 26:20, What happens to a fellow who doesn't have a chance to do works befitting repentance?

The answer is, if it ever did happen (and I have more confidence in God than that), then it would be God's decision, and fortunately not mine, but in the meantime, I must teach the will of the Father and He says that hearing the word, faith in Jesus, confession of Christ, repentance from sins, and washing away sins in baptism are all necessary to be saved from sins. Therein is the key problem. People talk about salvation, they see the goal is to get to heaven, but they neglect to see that they being saved from something, sin. It is as if they think they can be saved from drowning while remaining under the water.

However, we know that the early disciples understood the importance of being saved. When Saul was taught by Ananias, Acts 22:16.

When the Philippian jailer wanted to be saved, Acts 16:31-33

Why the urgency in obeying God's commands? Because the people knew that the future is uncertain, James 4:14. They did not risk the possibility of not having another opportunity, 2 Corinthians 6:2.

Frankly, when people truly believe God and are willing to do as He commands, the gap between belief and baptism isn't all that great. The possibility of dying before obeying is slim, and I'm confident that the Lord watches over those who are His.

When the Ethiopian asked this, Acts 8:37-38 and the answer was, "If you believe with all your heart, you may". There is nothing preventing salvation but a person's own heart.

"What if's" like you just did, are pointless since we have the scripture that straight up tells us.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Do you realize this actually proves MY side and not yours? Paul is speaking to children of God by FAITH who have been baptized. So? Where does it say believers who haven't been baptized are damned?

Did you even read verse 27 or did you get too excited with the first one?

If you are baptized INTO Christ, you have PUT ON Christ right?

Let me pose another question. If you ARE NOT baptized, then you have NOT PUT ON Christ right?

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

When you were a child, you theoretically COULD disobey your father - he could never NOT be your father and you could never NOT be his son. Does that mean you have a license to disobey your father? No. Why not? Maybe to avoid getting punished. Maybe out of love for your father.

I don't see how this relates to Romans 6:1-4.

The point I was getting across is that you must be BURIED (baptism- immersed), to put away the "old man" are RAISE UP a new person.

Jesus was not a sinner at all yet even He was baptized. What happened after Jesus was baptized?

Romans 6 is perfectly clear, you need baptism. Therefore if one is not baptized, they are not "walking the newness of life" like they think they are.

God IS our Heavenly father and he makes it abundantly clear that once we're born again - we can't "lose" our salvation. (John 10:27-30; I Peter 1:5; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:35-39; John 5:24, Ephesians 1:12-13)

Yes, you can lose it.

Hebrews 6:4-6

Look at Demas too. He was implied saved before, Philemon 1:24 and Colossians 4:14.

Now see here, 2 Timothy 4:10.

1 Corinthians 9:24-27

1 Timothy 1:19-20

2 Peter 2:15

Yes, you can lose salvation. However, I by no means say you can lose it permanently, so long as one repents of what made them fall to return to the loving arms of Jesus. He will forgive.

Once again, I have all these:

John 10:27-30, John 1:12, John 3:14-18, John 5:24, John 11:25-26, John 20:31, John 6:47 I Peter 1:5; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:35-39; John 5:24, Ephesians 1:12-13, Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Genesis 15:6, Romans 10:9, Romans 10:1, Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6, Romans 4:5, Romans 3:22, Romans 9:30, Philippians 3:9, Romans 10:4, Romans 4:13, Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1, Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:30, 1 John 5:13, 1 John 5:1, Acts 10:43, Acts 13:39, Acts 16:30-31, Acts 26:18, Titus 3:5

Once again, if I can find verses too, then it proves what I was saying automatically. No matter how many more verses you have.

You still have yet to explain to me how eternal life, which is given to someone the second they believe on the Lord Jesus and trust in Him for salvation, can somehow NOT be eternal. Eternal life is not eternal according to you and God is a liar.

John 6:47 King James Version (KJV)

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath (PRESENT TENSE) everlasting life.

John 3:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have (PRESENT TENSE) everlasting life.

Please oh please, I am saying this blue in the face. That believeth part your flaunting, ITS A VERB. I have explained it several times by the way. That believeth is an action.

No escaping that. sorry if you dont see that I really am. I did my best to show you. If you are not seeing this I must stop here.

 

[seashale76]

This misunderstanding is more of a modern problem. The faith vs. works dilemma is one that began during the Protestant Reformation. Suddenly, everything became a faith vs. works, or a faith or works debate. In reality, you'll have both faith and works. A better way of putting it is that one will have a faith that works. I only usually see this dilemma among Reformed types and Calvinists- so it's really not even all Protestants or Evangelicals. Arminianism was a response to Calvinism and what they saw that was wrong with it. This debate ignores the whole picture and the totality of what the scriptures say. Here's an Orthodox view for you all.

Justification is the process of becoming righteous. Justification by faith is being in a covenant with God. Because of Christ fulfilling the law, we're no longer under the Old Covenant, and Christ's Church is under the New Covenant. So, justification isn't a one time event for us. We're in a covenant with God, which is centered around union with Christ.

Salvation is having faith in Christ, receiving the indwelling/gift of the Holy Spirit, and coming to a knowledge of God the Father. Yes, we have faith, but it is a gift by the grace of God, and it is actually God's mercy (and not our faith) that saves us. God draws us to Himself.

Faith is something of an action word. It's continuous, and it isn't a one moment in time deal. Faith is not merely an intellectual assent to a belief in God. You are saved at your baptism into Christ, you are being saved through life in the Church and partaking of the sacraments, and you will be saved at the Final Judgment. So, a life in Christ is a journey to us. We don't attempt to break things down, but see things holistically.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Hebrews 12:21
Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

1 Corinthians 9:24
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.

Philippians 3:12
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

Philippians 3:14
I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Matthew 24:13
but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 10:22
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19
By standing firm you will gain life.

2 Thessalonians 4:7-8
For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Acts 14:21-22
They preached the good news in that city and won a large number of disciples. Then they returned to Lystra, Iconium and Antioch, strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true to the faith. "We must go through many hardships to enter the kingdom of God," they said.

1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

Revelation 3:11
I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

Proverbs 24:16
a righteous man falls seven times, he rises again, but the wicked are brought down by calamity.

James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

 

[ToBeLoved]

I never put Youtube videos in my posts, but I think this video in 2 1/2 minutes explains salvation and how it works well.