Missionary Position

[cantata]

But heck, who need pornography anyway if your sex life is good?

No one needs it, but it can be a fun thing to share.

Nothing like watching weird softcore 70s lesbian vampire pornography with one's boyfriend... *cough*

What about hentai, pornography involving married couples, or erotic literature?

 

[PassionFruit]

No one needs it, but it can be a fun thing to share.

Nothing like watching weird softcore 70s lesbian vampire pornography with one's boyfriend... *cough*

What about hentai, pornography involving married couples, or erotic literature?

You know hentai actually means "perverted?"

Yeah, if I was a Christian and married I would at least read erotica. It's much more artistic.

 

[gengwall]

No one needs it, but it can be a fun thing to share.

Nothing like watching weird softcore 70s lesbian vampire pornography with one's boyfriend... *cough*

What about hentai, pornography involving married couples, or erotic literature?

Good question. I can find fault with any pornography which uses real people, married or not, because it inherently involves what I would consider a defiling of the marriage bed, either mine or theirs. Bottom line, as a Christian I feel sex is something to be shared strictly between the married couple. Not only do I not have a moral standing to watch others have sex, but I don't have a moral standing to share my intramarital sex life with others.

Erotic literature is dicey, although, like I said, Song of Solomon can be interpreted as erotic literature. I personally have no taste for it, as my sex life is satisfying. It may help others who need something to spice things up. I can't be the judge for them.

As a subset, literature designed as instructional, while inherently erotic because of the subject matter, seems permissible to me.

Hentai and other illustrated erotica also doesn't appeal to me but I'm not sure I can condemn it out of hand.

And I should mention soft porn as well. My Christian stance on arrousal in general is that it should occur via my spouse and her only. If I need to look at naked or sexily clad women to get my engine started, that signals a problem between me and my spouse. I also think it is adulterous, as it creates lust for another (even if there is no chance of sex with that other). So I am pretty much against that as well.

Keep in mind that everything I have just said is being addressed only within the context of marriage. I think all y'all unmarried fornicators out there are immoral regardless of what part, if any, erotica plays in your illicit sexual acts. But enough moralizing.

For me and my house, there is no place or need for any extra marital enhancement and I believe that is how God intended things to be.

 

[cantata]

You know hentai actually means "perverted?"

Aye; but again, none of us here are silly enough to commit the etymology fallacy

Yeah, if I was a Christian and married I would at least read erotica. It's much more artistic.

Well, some pornography is very artistic as well, but yes, in general I agree with you. Anaïs Nin is my personal favourite.

 

[cantata]

Erotic literature is dicey, although, like I said, Song of Solomon can be interpreted as erotic literature. I personally have no taste for it, as my sex life is satisfying. It may help others who need something to spice things up. I can't be the judge for them.

I dislike the implication that erotic literature is only for people whose sex lives are not satisfying. Mine is very satisfying, but I find it fun and interesting to share erotic literature with my boyfriend or to enjoy it alone.

Everything else you speak of is not directly applicable to me so I can't really argue

 

[gengwall]

Well, some pornography is very artistic as well, but yes, in general I agree with you. Anaïs Nin is my personal favourite.

LOL - not the stuff I watched at frat parties in my PJ days.

 

[gengwall]

I dislike the implication that erotic literature is only for people whose sex lives are not satisfying. Mine is very satisfying, but I find it fun and interesting to share erotic literature with my boyfriend or to enjoy it alone.

Everything else you speak of is not directly applicable to me so I can't really argue

Hmmm. I'm trying to understand the need within a satisfying sexual relationship. What purpose does it serve, other than to arrouse one sexually? Do you read it for the literary value?

 

[cantata]

Hmmm. I'm trying to understand the need within a satisfying sexual relationship. What purpose does it serve, other than to arrouse one sexually? Do you read it for the literary value?

I certainly read Anaïs Nin for the literary value.

I enjoy the titillation, of course - a book can offer up scenarios and sensations that aren't available to one in one's everyday life (sex out of doors, for example, or sex in 1920s America ). It can be exciting to share those scenarios with a partner; it's fun to talk about these things, to discuss the things that arouse you. Personally I enjoy sharing sexuality in many ways with my lover. I like variety. Speech and visual stimulation are just as erotic at times as physical sensation.

But Nin's work has also helped me discover aspects of my own sexuality and my character in new and remarkable ways. In the context of experience and narrative, she has helped me to reach parts of my femininity of which I was previously unaware. Erotic literature opens up possibilities in the hearts and minds of the sexually inquisitive; and no one has done that more for me than Nin.

I'd add that works like Nancy Friday's collections of erotic fantasies are excellent ways of making one feel normal and female (or male, in the case of her collections of men's fantasies)) where one might have been afraid or ashamed of what turns one on. That is all to the good.

ETA: Loving someone, as I do my partner, does not preclude other desires. We both understand that, and act accordingly.

 

[gengwall]

I certainly read Anaïs Nin for the literary value.

I enjoy the titillation, of course - a book can offer up scenarios and sensations that aren't available to one in one's everyday life (sex out of doors, for example, or sex in 1920s America ). It can be exciting to share those scenarios with a partner; it's fun to talk about these things, to discuss the things that arouse you. Personally I enjoy sharing sexuality in many ways with my lover. I like variety. Speech and visual stimulation are just as erotic at times as physical sensation.

But Nin's work has also helped me discover aspects of my own sexuality and my character in new and remarkable ways. In the context of experience and narrative, she has helped me to reach parts of my femininity of which I was previously unaware. Erotic literature opens up possibilities in the hearts and minds of the sexually inquisitive; and no one has done that more for me than Nin.

I'd add that works like Nancy Friday's collections of erotic fantasies are excellent ways of making one feel normal and female (or male, in the case of her collections of men's fantasies)) where one might have been afraid or ashamed of what turns one on. That is all to the good.

ETA: Loving someone, as I do my partner, does not preclude other desires. We both understand that, and act accordingly.

Well, I can't necessarily find fault with that (other than your unmarried state - just had to slip that in again). At the risk of being redundant, Song of Solomon can be seen in the same light and I certainly can find no fault with it.

Now, let me ask you this. Do you see a potential danger in erotic literature (and to a much greater degree, porn)? Can it possibly build expectations that are not easily or even realistically met in a partner? Can it lead to one person in a relationship seeking greener, if not completely fantasy based, pastures? Do you and your partner ever put boundaries around what other "peoples'" experiences you let influence your individual sexual preferences and combined sexual model?

 

[cantata]

Well, I can't necessarily find fault with that (other than your unmarried state - just had to slip that in again). At the risk of being redundant, Song of Solomon can be seen in the same light and I certainly can find no fault with it.

Good!

Now, let me ask you this. Do you see a potential danger in erotic literature (and to a much greater degree, porn)? Can it possibly build expectations that are not easily or even realistically met in a partner? Can it lead to one person in a relationship seeking greener, if not completely fantasy based, pastures?

Perhaps it could, for couples who are less secure. I am quite aware of what my boyfriend is and is not capable of. I do not think it is wrong to be aroused by thoughts of things which are impossible, either totally or within the limits of one's relationship.

If these things are going to cause a problem, they will cause one with or without erotica or pornography. People have imaginations.

Do you and your partner ever put boundaries around what other "peoples'" experiences you let influence your individual sexual preferences and combined sexual model?

How could we put boundaries around how outside influences affect our sexual preferences? Preferences are not chosen. As for our individual sexual model, we would never force the other to agree to or engage in any activity. But I am willing to talk about virtually anything with my lover, and he with me; and while I might not find something arousing that he does, I am quite happy to indulge him because I desire his pleasure as well as my own.

Really, I'm not sure what these concerns of yours constitute They seem very vague and wishy-washy to me.

 

[InnocentOdion]

This thread has been up for less than one minute and has already been reported. Shame on you!

Christian prudes, eh?

 

[Quintessence]

Lots of people say that Christians are sexually "repressed", I guess this proves them wrong!

 

[cantata]

Lots of people say that Christians are sexually "repressed", I guess this proves them wrong!

Well... No one with any sense says that all Christians are sexually repressed, and the film actually suggests that many are, given the lack of public support the couple are receiving from fellow Christians, and indeed the mission of the website in the first place, which is to help married Christians explore their sexuality.

 

[gengwall]

Really, I'm not sure what these concerns of yours constitute They seem very vague and wishy-washy to me.

My concern is that adultary (we'll treat you as married for now, at least in principle) is rampant in our country and often the case is unfulfilled sexual fantasy (usually, but not always, on the man's side). Now, your vision of relationship and sexuality is quite different than mine, so my concerns may not easily translate. That's ok. I suspect many people who are divorced and even many in unfulfilling relationships know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[cantata]

My concern is that adultary (we'll treat you as married for now, at least in principle) is rampant in our country and often the case is unfulfilled sexual fantasy (usually, but not always, on the man's side).

Might you have any research to back that up? I am of the opinion that adultery is frequently to do with desire for a particular person who happens not to be one's partner, rather than a sense that one's partner is inadequate.

Now, your vision of relationship and sexuality is quite different than mine, so my concerns may not easily translate. That's ok.

I dare say this is true. We have quite an unusual relationship model even by quite liberal standards. I realise that the same doesn't apply to everyone.

I suspect many people who are divorced and even many in unfulfilling relationships know exactly what I'm talking about.

Perhaps, but as I said, I'm not sure that pornography or erotic literature are to blame. People have imaginations, and they have to have the will to go out and look for these things if they want them. I don't think that pornography or erotica are the cause of problems, although certain uses of them might be symptoms and may exacerbate a problem that is already there. I can't speak for others, but it has never caused a problem for me in any of my relationships.

 

[gengwall]

Might you have any research to back that up? I am of the opinion that adultery is frequently to do with desire for a particular person who happens not to be one's partner, rather than a sense that one's partner is inadequate.

I don't doubt that as well. There are many reasons people stray, to be sure. I am only saying one of them certainly is unfulfilled (unrealistic) sexual expectations. This often happens, frankly, when men turn to pornography as their model for what sex should be like. You may be willing to do "it" anywhere, anytime, anyway, but that would make you quite exceptional. Most married women find it impossible to live up to the image that is portrayed in pornography, and well they should because it is totally unrealistic. Men, on the other hand, have a hard time divorcing that fantasy from realistic expectations placed on their wives/lovers. Again, this may not mean anything to you because your relationship sounds atypical.

Perhaps, but as I said, I'm not sure that pornography or erotic literature are to blame. People have imaginations, and they have to have the will to go out and look for these things if they want them. I don't think that pornography or erotica are the cause of problems, although certain uses of them might be symptoms and may exacerbate a problem that is already there. I can't speak for others, but it has never caused a problem for me in any of my relationships.

LOL, ok, first, I have to ask: You are 21. How many real adult relationships could you possibly have had? I have been married to the same woman for longer than you have been alive. Although you think you know a lot about relationship and sex, I can assure you, you are just starting to learn. Alright, now that I got the "you're sooooo young" bug out of me. On a more serious note. Whether it is the cause or simply exacerbates an existing problem is quite irrelevant. What matters is that it is damaging and unhealthy to relationships - I guess I should add - in the wrong hands. It may enhance your realtionship and your sex life. That's you. I don't presume you are wrong about your relationship and sex life. But you shouldn't presume the way things work for you is the way they work for everyone. Erotica is very dangerous if it is introduced into a relationship that is not prepared to handle it or overly influenced by it.

 

[cantata]

I don't doubt that as well. There are many reasons people stray, to be sure. I am only saying one of them certainly is unfulfilled (unrealistic) sexual expectations. This often happens, frankly, when men turn to pornography as their model for what sex should be like.

I have never known a man who believes that pornography bears any resemblance to real life, but then I prefer to hang around with intelligent men.

You may be willing to do "it" anywhere, anytime, anyway, but that would make you quite exceptional. Most married women find it impossible to live up to the image that is portrayed in pornography, and well they should because it is totally unrealistic. Men, on the other hand, have a hard time divorcing that fantasy from realistic expectations placed on their wives/lovers. Again, this may not mean anything to you because your relationship sounds atypical.

Perhaps it's less that my relationship is atypical and more that my boyfriend is atypical. I am certainly not willing to have sex anywhere, any time, any way. In fact, I frequently have a relatively low sex drive, while my boyfriend's is reasonably high. Yet he and I both relatively frequently read and watch pornographic and erotic material together and alone, and we do not find that it changes the demands we place on one another. We are both capable of separating fantasy from reality. If we were not, there would undoubtedly be a problem, but the problem would be with us and not with pornography.

LOL, ok, first, I have to ask: You are 21. How many real adult relationships could you possibly have had? I have been married to the same woman for longer than you have been alive.

You have been married to the same woman for longer than I have been alive, yes. I'm not sure how that makes you any more qualified to talk about sex or relationships in general than I am. Can you speak from personal experience about the damaging effects of pornography or erotica on your own sex life?

Although you think you know a lot about relationship and sex

I know only what I have experienced and what I have learned from extensive reading. My boyfriend is also a little older than me (not quite as ancient as you, but getting there ) and he is a wonderful source of knowledge and stimulation for me about subjects like this. I do not claim to be an authority on sex or relationships, but I also dislike being patronised because of my age. I have had several quite serious relationships with both men and women; can you say the same?

I can assure you, you are just starting to learn.

I dare say; as are you.

Alright, now that I got the "you're sooooo young" bug out of me. On a more serious note. Whether it is the cause or simply exacerbates an existing problem is quite irrelevant. What matters is that it is damaging and unhealthy to relationships - I guess I should add - in the wrong hands.

If it exacerbates an existing problem, there is still an existing problem which needs to be dealt with. Ignoring it is hardly going to help.

It may enhance your realtionship and your sex life. That's you. I don't presume you are wrong about your relationship and sex life. But you shouldn't presume the way things work for you is the way they work for everyone.

Nor, you'll notice, have I ever claimed that it is.

Erotica is very dangerous if it is introduced into a relationship that is not prepared to handle it or overly influenced by it.

As I say, if a relationship is going to be that severely troubled by erotica, I have a feeling that there is already a problem there that needs to be addressed without delay.

 

[gengwall]

I have never known a man who believes that pornography bears any resemblance to real life, but then I prefer to hang around with intelligent men.

You say you have read a lot. Have you read about the differences between men and women in how visual stimuli affect us? I am not saying that a man believes consciously that porn resembles real life. But the supposed power men wield and supposed reverence they receive in pornography plays to their subconscious desire for respect. I mean, pornography is simply a big problem for many men and a big problem in many relationships - yours not withstanding. You may not be aware of that, but it doesn't change the fact.

Perhaps it's less that my relationship is atypical and more that my boyfriend is atypical. I am certainly not willing to have sex anywhere, any time, any way. In fact, I frequently have a relatively low sex drive, while my boyfriend's is reasonably high. Yet he and I both relatively frequently read and watch pornographic and erotic material together and alone, and we do not find that it changes the demands we place on one another. We are both capable of separating fantasy from reality. If we were not, there would undoubtedly be a problem, but the problem would be with us and not with pornography.

I think we have established that your relationship works for you.

You have been married to the same woman for longer than I have been alive, yes. I'm not sure how that makes you any more qualified to talk about sex or relationships in general than I am. Can you speak from personal experience about the damaging effects of pornography or erotica on your own sex life?

I indeed can speak from personal experience about the damaging affects of pornography. In fact, I will even agree with you that it exacerbated an existing problem in my life. But that proves my point. Whether it was the problem or only a catalyst, it still was very damaging to my relationship. If you want to understand more about this, eavesdrop in on the Pornography Addiction Support forum sometime. I contribute there often and you can see how truly damaging pornography can be.

I know only what I have experienced and what I have learned from extensive reading. My boyfriend is also a little older than me (not quite as ancient as you, but getting there ) and he is a wonderful source of knowledge and stimulation for me about subjects like this. I do not claim to be an authority on sex or relationships, but I also dislike being patronised because of my age. I have had several quite serious relationships with both men and women; can you say the same?

I have had several serious relationships, of course, none with men. More importantly, unlike you, I have had one very long term, committed relationship that I dare say has survived more relational hurdles than you have even yet been exposed to. That is what makes my experience more extensive and puts me much further along on the learning curve.

 

[cantata]

You say you have read a lot. Have you read about the differences between men and women in how visual stimuli affect us? I am not saying that a man believes consciously that porn resembles real life. But the supposed power men wield and supposed reverence they receive in pornography plays to their subconscious desire for respect.

Of course; but the desire is the problem, not the pornography.

Pornography does not have to be viewed in that way or understood in that way, and many men are very capable of using it responsibly. You also seem to lump all pornography together. I am well aware that much pornography is extremely bad. I don't watch bad pornography, and to the best of my knowledge, neither does my boyfriend. Bad pornography portrays a world in which all women are there to do any man's bidding. That of course is not what life is like, and I would not recommend any pornography of that sort to anyone. Good pornography is quite a different matter and need not portray men as receiving any special reverence or wielding any special power.

I mean, pornography is simply a big problem for many men and a big problem in many relationships - yours not withstanding. You may not be aware of that, but it doesn't change the fact.

Are you saying that pornography is a problem in my relationship? Or only that it might be?

I think we have established that your relationship works for you.

I certainly have, thank you.

I indeed can speak from personal experience about the damaging affects of pornography. In fact, I will even agree with you that it exacerbated an existing problem in my life. But that proves my point. Whether it was the problem or only a catalyst, it still was very damaging to my relationship.

Then surely the best course of action was to seek help for the existing problem rather than forswear all pornography for the rest of your life ever. Not all pornography is the same. Some can be very positive and affirming for both men and women.

If you want to understand more about this, eavesdrop in on the Pornography Addiction Support forum sometime.

The instance of pornography addiction is, I imagine, grossly overstated, particularly here.

I contribute there often and you can see how truly damaging pornography can be.

I think it is more damaging if you feel terribly guilty about viewing it.

I have had several serious relationships, of course, none with men. More importantly, unlike you, I have had one very long term, committed relationship that I dare say has survived more relational hurdles than you have even yet been exposed to. That is what makes my experience more extensive and puts me much further along on the learning curve.

It makes your experience in that area more extensive than mine, certainly. We have, however, I am quite sure, had many very different experiences of different kinds of relationships and people, and I view all experience in this area as valuable.

I do not make any claims about your relationships, past or present; I'd prefer it if you showed me the same courtesy.