Missing link was a lie

[AirPo]

I'm surprised dad has not replied to my posts yet... Maybe he is doing some research.

You've got to admit though, he does appear to do research.

Of cousre he then interperts it in his HI Theory it's easy to make things up way.

 

[dad]

Inspiration is very human. Darwin experienced it when he arrived at the theory of evolution.

Trust me, I don't doubt that for a moment!

Einstein experienced it when he formulated the special theory of relativity.

Maybe, but are you sure it is not merely math, and thinking, and deduction?

Don't think God had much to do with either of those.

At least in Darwin's case, I think we can be certain of that! But remember, inspiration or spirit influence comes not just of good spirits.

Salvation is a very human concept too,

Nope, the whole idea of eternal salvation involves God, and the spiritual. Without that...what you see is what you get!

but it's always fun to hear your idea of salvation, dad, and especially what you think happens to those who aren't saved. Spiritual gifts....you tell me. That seems to be more your domain. What can you mean?

They are listed in the epistles. Here is someone's take on what they are from a googled site..

"

• 
  [*] The gift of wisdom seems to be the ability to make decisions and give guidance that is according to God's will.
  [*] The gift of knowledge is the ability to have an in-depth understanding of a spiritual issue or situation.
  [*] The gift of faith is being able to trust God and encourage others to trust God, no matter the circumstances.
  [*] The gift of healing is the miraculous ability to use God's healing power to restore a person who is sick, injured, or suffering.
  [*] The gift of miracles is being able to perform signs and wonders that give authenticity to God's Word and the Gospel message.
  [*] The gift of prophecy is being able to proclaim a message from God.
  [*] The gift of discerning spirits is the ability to determine whether or not a message, person, or event is truly from God.
  [*] The gift of tongues is the ability to speak in a foreign language that you do not have knowledge of, in order to communicate with someone who speaks that language.
  [*] The gift of interpreting tongues is the ability to translate the tongues speaking and communicate it back to others in your own language.
  [*] The gift of administration is being able to keep things organized and in accordance with God's principles.
  [*] The gift of helps is always having the desire and ability to help others, to do whatever it takes to get a task accomplished."http://www.allaboutgod.com/gifts-of-the-spirit.htm

I'd be more convinced that you did if you'd specifically said, "I know that I'm human". I notice that you dislike being called on this point. Interesting.

Stop it, you're cracking me up.

I see. That's the extent of it is it? What Paul said didn't mean much to me, perhaps it does to you. Perhaps you'd tell me what it means to you, particularly pointing out the differences between a spiritual gift and a natural human ability.

Human ability ends before God's spiritual help begins, we might say. When Peter preached to multitudes, thay all heard hiim in their own language. That has nothing to do with human ability.

.

Groan, here we go again. You are "not a fan of man's wisdom". It might be worth reminding you again that you are a man too. You're wisdom is subject to the same criteria as everyone else's, although this seems to elude you. The fact that you are not troubled by this double standard and see no internal conflict in your logic is what leads me to the conclusions you don't like.

When a man cheats, and uses God's cheat sheet, the revealed word of God to man, he can tap into God's wisdom.

No, you read the bible and then started making up rubbish to make the real world fit the bible. In other words, you stopped thinking. Probably didn't bother to read much of anything else either. You certainly haven't conquered, In fact, how many people have you persuaded of your ideas again? (If you've forgotten, that was one of the questions you've avoided answering in this thread. One of many.)

Long as I know that so called science is defeated, and exposed, and truly a con job, and wrong, and know that they really cannot prove their wild eyed lies, that is victory. If any others ever share in that with me, fine. If not, I guess they will have to wait to see...

It all does fit God's word after all, yes. Not sure why I ever doubted. But let's face it, if we were educated past a grade 4 level, (that much I can confess to)..you start to see that science claims that creation is a crock...usually indirectly, insidiously.

 

[dad]

I provided the King's list you hold so dear. Are you going to say it is wrong now as well?

You joking? Have you ever looked into who the author was? Is that the list written on the back of some parchment? Well, maybe it was the village idiot, hired as kitchen help??

So how can 3,000 years worth of Egyptian rulers fit into a period of less than 2,000 years?

Very very easy. The 2000 years are real years! Here is the formula, simplified. Look at the oldest, the first ruler on the list. Who was it, and how are the "dates" arrived at? --We don't need to go any further back than that.

Then why didn't God just do that from the beginning? Isn't that the basis of the argument for him giving us the choice in the first place?

Well, apparently knowing good and evil, and having chose the good in the end is a valuable lesson. Remember, eternity is a long long time.

So you think the historical truth is more important than the spiritual truth? Does that make Jesus a liar if his parables never literally happened?

Does that mean you have some proof they never happened?

We are not replacing God. We are merely attempting to describe the events of the natural world in natural, testable means.

Then you will have to stick to the present! My point exactly.

What do you mean? We know in this "present" state that geologic folding is caused due to to plates slowing being pushed together. The heat generated from the intense pressure causes the rock to bend and fold. That is the explanation we use. What would your explanation be?

That either the heart came near the time when the changeover took place, or that folding former state matter does not require or produce the heat present state matter would, of course!

Apparently you do. Do you not claim to be "God's little echo"?

Nope. That was last week Apparently some think that echoing His word is some sort of special power..

Yes, and planes fly because? What exactly is "spiritual matter"?

Physical only matter is what we have now. Spiritual and physical, merged matter, is the stuff of eternity. Jesus had a spiritual and physical body after rising from the dead.

It is pillow lava. You have already state you did not have a problem with pillow lava forming underwater. Now you are trying to backtrack because I got you.
Pillow lava - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No

I am trying to extract a point from you. Forming stuff is easy. We just need details on the stuff. For example, was it in an area where heat was produced by the continental move, thereby affecting the old formation? etc etc..

 

[BananaSlug]

You joking? Have you ever looked into who the author was? Is that the list written on the back of some parchment? Well, maybe it was the village idiot, hired as kitchen help??

Then you provide the Egyptian kings list that you go by. Let me see what you have. Put up or shut up.

Very very easy. The 2000 years are real years! Here is the formula, simplified. Look at the oldest, the first ruler on the list. Who was it, and how are the "dates" arrived at? --We don't need to go any further back than that.

Or how about start at Cleopatra and work backwards.

Well, apparently knowing good and evil, and having chose the good in the end is a valuable lesson. Remember, eternity is a long long time.

Then why didn't God just create us with the knowledge of good and evil?

Does that mean you have some proof they never happened?

So you are claiming a story has to be literally true to have a point?

Then you will have to stick to the present! My point exactly.

We are. We are using the present to explain the past. If the explanation works using present phenomena, there is no point to assume the past was "different".

That either the heat came near the time when the changeover took place, or that folding former state matter does not require or produce the heat present state matter would, of course!

How? Could you provide an explanation as to how "former state" matter would not require or produce heat? From what you just posted, the only difference between "present state" folding and "past state" folding is that the latter does not produce/require heat. What would be the scientific explanation for this and why?

Physical only matter is what we have now. Spiritual and physical, merged matter, is the stuff of eternity. Jesus had a spiritual and physical body after rising from the dead.

So what is "spiritual matter"? How is it different from physical matter?

I am trying to extract a point from you. Forming stuff is easy. We just need details on the stuff. For example, was it in an area where heat was produced by the continental move, thereby affecting the old formation? etc etc..

The pillow lava formation was in the middle of the Australian desert. Pillow lava forms underwater. If the pillow lava formed during the supposed flood, then that means it formed underwater in the "past state" the same way it forms now. If it was formed by a different means in the "past state", then you need to provide a viable scientific explanation as to how pillow lava would not be formed underwater.

 

[dad]

Then you provide the Egyptian kings list that you go by. Let me see what you have. Put up or shut up.

Well, the one I recall was the Turin list.??

"...The fact that the list was scribbled on the back of an older papyrus has been seen by some as an indication that it was of no great importance to the writer. Perhaps it was a text that needed to be copied in a scribes' school by way of exercise? We are also left in the dark as to what source or sources our laborious scribe used to write down the list. Did he simply copy an already existing papyrus? And if so, for what reason? And what has happened to the original? How was that compiled? Or did the scribe, probably having access to the archives of the temples, compile the list himself, using ancient tax-notes, decrees and documents? The latter possibility seems the less likely and would infer that the Turin Kinglist is indeed a unique document. "


The Ancient Egypt Site



Not only was the scribe unknown, the list is very incomplete

"The king list of the Turin Kinglist was originally divided over an unknown number of columns or sheets, of which only 11 remain..."

!! Same link


Then there is the issue of what was actually being said!!

"It is strange that the writer should choose to note the age of a king in one case and the length of his reign in another..."


Finally, it liste gods and spirits as the first kings!!!!!!!!


"he fact that it begins with an enumeration of gods, demi-gods, spirits and mythical that were supposed to have ruled Egypt before the reign of Menes..."

same link

Or how about start at Cleopatra and work backwards.

Look, the oldest are supposed to be spirits!! That is what you are up against here. Finding some flesh and blood woman from actual history will not help you.

Then why didn't God just create us with the knowledge of good and evil?

Ask Him. My guess would be that real knowledge is best tasted.

So you are claiming a story has to be literally true to have a point?

No. But that would sharpen it greatly.

We are. We are using the present to explain the past. If the explanation works using present phenomena, there is no point to assume the past was "different".

Speak for yourself. I am no longer using the temporal state to explain the created one.

How? Could you provide an explanation as to how "former state" matter would not require or produce heat? From what you just posted, the only difference between "present state" folding and "past state" folding is that the latter does not produce/require heat. What would be the scientific explanation for this and why?

Simple. Physical science covers only physical things. The created state involved the spiritual.

So what is "spiritual matter"? How is it different from physical matter?

Well, I think what we are looking at is merged matter in the past and future...both. If you want to know how it is different you need to know about the spiritual. Science doesn't!!! Really. That means it is out of the loop. It should be quiet and act like the fool it is.

The pillow lava formation was in the middle of the Australian desert. Pillow lava forms underwater. If the pillow lava formed during the supposed flood, then that means it formed underwater in the "past state" the same way it forms now. If it was formed by a different means in the "past state", then you need to provide a viable scientific explanation as to how pillow lava would not be formed underwater.

Was there ever water in that area? Careful....then, can you prove that this formation happened at that time precisely? Or not? Etc... I don't read crystal balls, like so called science. I need details, evidence, facts..

 

[BananaSlug]

The Ancient Egypt Site

Oh look what I found on the website!
http://www.ancient-egypt.org/index.html
It seems like it mentions the kings I listed in my last post!

Besides, the Palermo stone is much more accurate.

It is inscribed on both sides with a list of kings from Predynastic Egypt to the middle of the 5th Dynasty. From the 4th Dynasty on, the list also contains the foundations and offerings made by the kings. It is thus highly valuable in the study of the early history of Ancient Egypt.
The Ancient Egypt Site

Why did you use a site that agreed with what I posted?

Then there is the issue of what was actually being said!!

"It is strange that the writer should choose to note the age of a king in one case and the length of his reign in another..."

Finally, it liste gods and spirits as the first kings!!!!!!!!

"he fact that it begins with an enumeration of gods, demi-gods, spirits and mythical that were supposed to have ruled Egypt before the reign of Menes..."

I'm sure that after 3,000 years people would look at the first pharoahs as gods. Of course, even the pharaoh at the time of Moses was considered a living god so you do not really prove anything.
Even then, the "mythic god/spirit kings" existed before the 1st dynasty of the Turin list. The 1st dynasty of Egypt, starting with Menes began in 3100 B.C. The Turin list still proves my point.

Look, the oldest are supposed to be spirits!! That is what you are up against here. Finding some flesh and blood woman from actual history will not help you.

The Turin list still supports the list I posted. Care to explain how 3,000 years of Egyptian history can occur between 2345 B.C. and 31 B.C., as stated by the Turin list?

Ask Him. My guess would be that real knowledge is best tasted.

Nothing to say now?

No. But that would sharpen it greatly.

Thank you for agreeing that a literally story is not needed to state a point.

Speak for yourself. I am no longer using the temporal state to explain the created one.

Yes you are. When you say the movement of continents did not create "heat", you are using the present state definition of "heat". Every word you use has past state meaning attached to it.

Simple. Physical science covers only physical things. The created state involved the spiritual.

That is not answering the question. I'll ask it again.

From what you just posted, the only difference between "present state" folding and "past state" folding is that the latter does not produce/require heat. What would be the scientific explanation for this and why?

Well, I think what we are looking at is merged matter in the past and future...both. If you want to know how it is different you need to know about the spiritual. Science doesn't!!! Really. That means it is out of the loop. It should be quiet and act like the fool it is.

Explain it to me. What is "spiritual matter"?

Was there ever water in that area? Careful....then, can you prove that this formation happened at that time precisely? Or not? Etc... I don't read crystal balls, like so called science. I need details, evidence, facts..

The pillow lava formation was in the middle of the Australian desert. Pillow lava forms underwater. If the pillow lava formed during the supposed flood, then that means it formed underwater in the "past state" the same way it forms now. If it was formed by a different means in the "past state", then you need to provide a viable scientific explanation as to how pillow lava would not be formed underwater. That should be all of the facts you need!

 

[dad]

Oh look what I found on the website!

It seems like it mentions the kings I listed in my last post!

Besides, the Palermo stone is much more accurate.

Woah!! Your 'accurate' record speaks of spirits.

"The text begins by listing several thousands of years of rulers — presumed by many to be mythical — predating the rise of the god Horus, who, according to the text, conferred the kingship on Menes, the first human ruler listed"

wiki

!!!! Have you anything to offer us that is not presumed mythical, and that doesn't list spooks as rulers? What a scream.

It is inscribed on both sides with a list of kings from Predynastic Egypt to the middle of the 5th Dynasty. From the 4th Dynasty on, the list also contains the foundations and offerings made by the kings. It is thus highly valuable in the study of the early history of Ancient Egypt.
The Ancient Egypt Site

Why did you use a site that agreed with what I posted?

So, the dates are important, and you don't have any. You have lists that apparently are considered mythical, which list spirits as leaders. Any more questions?!

I'm sure that after 3,000 years people would look at the first pharoahs as gods.

Objection..speculation.

Of course, even the pharaoh at the time of Moses was considered a living god so you do not really prove anything.

You do not prove he lived at the time of Moses. You just claimed it. How do you know?

Even then, the "mythic god/spirit kings" existed before the 1st dynasty of the Turin list. The 1st dynasty of Egypt, starting with Menes began in 3100 B.C. The Turin list still proves my point.

?? Mythical undated lists that list spooks prove your point? In case you are missing something here, show us the basis of the dates for the first kingdom.

The Turin list still supports the list I posted. Care to explain how 3,000 years of Egyptian history can occur between 2345 B.C. and 31 B.C., as stated by the Turin list?

Care to provide the basis for the dates? The rest is easy.

Thank you for agreeing that a literally story is not needed to state a point.

I agree that God can make a point with a true story.

Yes you are. When you say the movement of continents did not create "heat", you are using the present state definition of "heat". Every word you use has past state meaning attached to it.

The meaning used for heat is 'killing heat'. Not enough was produced to kill life! That means that it could not have been in the present state, period.

From what you just posted, the only difference between "present state" folding and "past state" folding is that the latter does not produce/require heat. What would be the scientific explanation for this and why?

No. I never said that was the only difference. It also apparently was not in a state of radioactive decay. It also allowed water to pass through it better, because fountains of the deep watered the earth.

Explain it to me. What is "spiritual matter"?

No one knows that, especially science. But the former state and future state does not have that. It has spiritual and physical matter. Both together. That makes a whole new balance.

The pillow lava formation was in the middle of the Australian desert. Pillow lava forms underwater. If the pillow lava formed during the supposed flood, then that means it formed underwater in the "past state" the same way it forms now.

Woah! Who says it had to form IN the flood?? Where do you dig these assumptions up?

If it was formed by a different means in the "past state", then you need to provide a viable scientific explanation as to how pillow lava would not be formed underwater. That should be all of the facts you need!

Well, start off by telling us about the site. Uplift in the area, history of lakes in the area, etc etc. Don't be like the kid in class that got fed up with his teacher. She kept asking the students to identify birds by looking only at the legs. Each leg of a bird was distinctive she claimed, and could identify the bird. The teacher asked the boy what his name was, when she told him to stand up, before asking him to look at the picture of bird legs to identify it.
The kid pulled up his pants on one leg, held it up, and said "You tell me?"

 

[BananaSlug]

Woah!! Your 'accurate' record speaks of spirits.

"The text begins by listing several thousands of years of rulers — presumed by many to be mythical — predating the rise of the god Horus, who, according to the text, conferred the kingship on Menes, the first human ruler listed"

wiki

!!!! Have you anything to offer us that is not presumed mythical, and that doesn't list spooks as rulers? What a scream.

Menes was the first human ruler. According to the Turin list, which also mentions the number of years that they ruled. If you go from Cleopatra whose rule ended in 31 B.C. back to Menes, it is around 3,000 years of dynasties. The Turin list covers the 1st to the 17th dynasties.

So, the dates are important, and you don't have any. You have lists that apparently are considered mythical, which list spirits as leaders. Any more questions?!

So now you are rejecting the Turin list? The years of the pharaoh's rule are mentioned on the list. I thought you knew this?

Objection..speculation.

We have done the same with our first presidents. Washington and the apple tree... Granted, we do not view them as "spirits" or "gods" but we often give them credit for more deeds than they have done.

You do not prove he lived at the time of Moses. You just claimed it. How do you know?

The pharaoh of the story of Exodus. They one who is strangely not named in the Bible. I also wonder why there are no Egyptian records speaking of Israelites in Egypt?

?? Mythical undated lists that list spooks prove your point? In case you are missing something here, show us the basis of the dates for the first kingdom.

Working backward from Cleopatra (31 B.C.) to Ahmose I (1550 B.C, the founder of the 18th dynasty), which is around 1550 years. The Turin list covers the 1st dynasty (starting with Menes) to the 17th (ending with Kamose) , which is an extra 1551 years. Since the Turin list and the Palermo stone gives how many years each pharaoh ruled, we can build a time scale from Cleopatra back to Menes. The Egyptian empire lasted over 3100 years from Menes to Cleopatra.

Care to provide the basis for the dates? The rest is easy.

The basis for the dates is the Turin list you love so much.

I agree that God can make a point with a true story.

You have also agreed that God can make a point with allegory.

The meaning used for heat is 'killing heat'. Not enough was produced to kill life! That means that it could not have been in the present state, period.

Great heat is being produced right now and it is not killing us. The core of the earth is several thousand degrees and it is not killing us. That means it could still have been the "present state" considering the heat earth is making right now and we are all just fine.

No. I never said that was the only difference. It also apparently was not in a state of radioactive decay. It also allowed water to pass through it better, because fountains of the deep watered the earth.

Radioactive decay has nothing to do with geologic folding. Movement of groundwater has nothing to do with geologic folding. I'll ask you again, what is the difference between "present state" geologic folding and "past state" geologic folding? If you cannot give an explanation as to how it was different, then it must have been the same.

No one knows that, especially science. But the former state and future state does not have that. It has spiritual and physical matter. Both together. That makes a whole new balance.

If no one knows, that means you do not either. What is the difference between spiritual matter and physical matter. You seem to keep skirting the question.

Woah! Who says it had to form IN the flood?? Where do you dig these assumptions up?

You have yet to explain how pillow lava would form in conditions other than underwater.

Well, start off by telling us about the site. Uplift in the area, history of lakes in the area, etc etc.

The pillow lava formation was in the middle of the Australian desert and was dated to have formed during the Archean (before the split). This is not about the dating methods used, but the formation of the pillow lava.

If it was formed by a different means in the "past state", then you need to provide a viable scientific explanation as to how pillow lava would not be formed underwater. That should be all of the facts you need!

All I need to know is how pillow lava would form in places other than underwater.

 

[dad]

Menes was the first human ruler. According to the Turin list, which also mentions the number of years that they ruled. If you go from Cleopatra whose rule ended in 31 B.C. back to Menes, it is around 3,000 years of dynasties. The Turin list covers the 1st to the 17th dynasties.

Well, some suppose that Menes was actually someone else by another name too. Doesn't seem like they are snorkeling in clear water. If you want to accept the first human ruler, that comes with baggage, you also get the spirits. If you are OK with all that, then, go ahead, and show us the dates and how they arrive at them for the first human king of Egypt. Let's see what is actually on offer here.

So now you are rejecting the Turin list? The years of the pharaoh's rule are mentioned on the list. I thought you knew this?

Well, before we get to that, we need to get past the spirits. Then, if you can accept them in your package deal, we need to look at how any particular king is dated.

We have done the same with our first presidents. Washington and the apple tree... Granted, we do not view them as "spirits" or "gods" but we often give them credit for more deeds than they have done.

No. No one in their right mind thinks they were ghosts. There is no reason to assume less devolved folks, mentally, than modern man would be so retarded.



[/quote]The pharaoh of the story of Exodus. They one who is strangely not named in the Bible. I also wonder why there are no Egyptian records speaking of Israelites in Egypt?[/quote] Because they were butwhipped so bad that they tried to cover up, would be my guess.

Working backward from Cleopatra (31 B.C.) to Ahmose I (1550 B.C, the founder of the 18th dynasty), which is around 1550 years. The Turin list covers the 1st dynasty (starting with Menes) to the 17th (ending with Kamose) , which is an extra 1551 years. Since the Turin list and the Palermo stone gives how many years each pharaoh ruled, we can build a time scale from Cleopatra back to Menes. The Egyptian empire lasted over 3100 years from Menes to Cleopatra.

You forgot to show us how Ahmose gets datede 1500 years? The Turin list is not accurate, apparently, in the way you seem to think.

"The number of years credited to some kings of the 1st and 2nd Dynasty is so high, that, in those particular cases, they are most likely not correct. It has sometimes been postulated that this high number of years does not reflect the length of a reign but the age at which the king died. Although this possibility can not entirely be overruled, it is strange that the writer should choose to note the age of a king in one case and the length of his reign in another. I would rather suspect that the scribe mistook the year-labels of early kings as representations of different years, whereas it is likely that several labels actually referred to the same year."

The Turin King List

The basis for the dates is the Turin list you love so much.

Then it is garbage. Not reliable for actual time. I refer to the lists because they note spirits lived among men in the early days, not for dating.

You have also agreed that God can make a point with allegory.

I assume the parables were true.

Great heat is being produced right now and it is not killing us. The core of the earth is several thousand degrees and it is not killing us. That means it could still have been the "present state" considering the heat earth is making right now and we are all just fine.

No, the core is possibly spiritual also material, so they misread the evidence. Truth is they don't know. Really. But if a planet ful of water fell from above ask someone if heat would be produced, or if continents moved thousands of miles in hours, days, or months.

Radioactive decay has nothing to do with geologic folding. Movement of groundwater has nothing to do with geologic folding. I'll ask you again, what is the difference between "present state" geologic folding and "past state" geologic folding? If you cannot give an explanation as to how it was different, then it must have been the same.

Why not show us some from each state? We'll have a look. Are you sure we even get it in this state?

You have yet to explain how pillow lava would form in conditions other than underwater.

What can you tell us about it? So far, it seems it may or may not have been under water. Whopee do. How about the microscopic composition? Anything that makes it same state, and identical to, say, something Mount St Helens cooked up, or whatever?

The pillow lava formation was in the middle of the Australian desert and was dated to have formed during the Archean (before the split). This is not about the dating methods used, but the formation of the pillow lava.

Dated?? How, precisely? There are formations on high mountains said to be older than what is under them. But they got pushed up. Can you prove the area had no disturbance and was underwater when it formed?? Otherwise, you are are blowing smoke.

 

[driewerf]

Let me get this straight, you claim that you do not need any evidence whatsoever for the premise you use to formulate scientific claims about the creation era. OK. So, let me ask you, why would anyone else need to, according to your standards? You will need to learn the difference between knowing, and making up any ungodly little fable you wish, and calling it science.

No dad. The one who introduces new concepts has to prove them right. You are introducing a different past. Very well, so the burden of proof lies on you.
Start to answer the following questions
- which physical laws or constants changed?
- what caused their change? (And you will have to provide a detailed mechanism for that change. Just saying "The Flood", or "the Fall" will not do it.
-can we see any remnant of this? (in the fossil record, in the geological column, in distant stars or galaxies? in anything else?)
These three questions are crucial.

Well, I claim that you have no scientific evidence for your assumption that the earth was in a certain state. And you don't. Anyone will see that you have failed, and will fail to provide any. Instead, you appeal to ignorance, in that you seem to think we somehow just need to take your word for it, for no reason whatsoever. Can you see the chink in your armor here?

Wrong. The fact that we can analyse and understand events of the past, with the present understanding of the physical world is prove against your alleged changes. We see ancient cultures applying the same physics in their buildings as we do, we see them applying the same agriculture as we do. We see the same elements in the light of distant stars as in near ones etc etc.

It is not I that claim it was different, so much as God.

I don't care about what god says. I'm talking to you. You wrote in this thread, so it's up to you to answer.

Fossils? We have a record of all sorts of hyper evolved from the kinds creatures.

Do we? Then show me that record!

Archeological evidence, geological strata, astronomical data? It all supports a different state past! Don't throw out such vague quasi claims.

Does it?
Really? Show me that data!

 

[driewerf]

If the universe changed, I might ask you, how is it they would behave as if they were not in this universe??? But, since you brought it up, ..prove it!!! I am interested to find out if the whole universe was changed, or just a more localized area near earth.

What? Do I have to provide proves for your allegations? You may wait a very long time for that.

Not at all. It proves that starlight coming in, is in the present state light. How long that was so is the issue. Try to get you head round that one.

So what? Spectral lines being added to the star light while travelling? No dad. The star emmitted the light, with spectral lines of known elements, and it proves that the physicla laws and constants were the same at the time of the emmission as now. If you try to brush this aside with "changed light", you will have to provide a mechanism for that change.

You are talking about a change IN this state and fabric of the universe and laws. That is not an issue. It was NOT a change IN OUR laws. That moots your point, somethin fierce.

So what, remnants of the past are continuously changing to reflect a concordance with present physical laws and constants? You are introducing more and more ad hoc hypotheses, just to cover up your bias.

 

[driewerf]

It is precisely what you do NOT know, that I am exploring! Work on that.

I have to confront you with your own words, dad:

Calm down. My normal life happens to be in the here and now. Right in this present state. As long as science sticks here, to what it KNOWS, it is real science. (even though much of that is evil, like womd)

So no. Science is not sticking to what it knows. But tries (and it does so very succesfully!) to explore the unknown.

 

[dad]

What? Do I have to provide proves for your allegations? You may wait a very long time for that.

It is not my allegation that science rests on the premise that the laws and nature were the same. Really. It is their point, and yours if you defend them. It is indefensible.

So what? Spectral lines being added to the star light while travelling? No dad.

No indeed. I agree. The created light in the created state did have information, some of which we still see in our light. We just see the stuff that can exist in this state, and that includes info from far stars.

The star emmitted the light, with spectral lines of known elements, and it proves that the physicla laws and constants were the same at the time of the emmission as now.

No, actually. If the universe state changed, all it proves is that the changed light in a changed universe exists in a certain way, with certain speed, and properties. Since there was more than just the physical only state elements we know here now, we need to be careful interpreting what comes in.

If you try to brush this aside with "changed light", you will have to provide a mechanism for that change.

No I won't. If you can't prove it was the same, rather than assuming it for no reason, it remains unknown to science. Besides, it is not just changed light, but a changed universe, including light. Science can't deal in that. So when God says it is a temporal state, you have nothing to say about it.

So what, remnants of the past are continuously changing to reflect a concordance with present physical laws and constants? You are introducing more and more ad hoc hypotheses, just to cover up your bias.

No. The things that are changiibg that science can see are present state things!

 

[driewerf]

It is precisely what you do NOT know, that I am exploring! Work on that.

Actually, you are exploring nothing.

 

[Orogeny]

Nah, driewerf. Nah. When Dad tells you to work on something, you work on it.

Understand.

 

[BananaSlug]

Well, some suppose that Menes was actually someone else by another name too. Doesn't seem like they are snorkeling in clear water. If you want to accept the first human ruler, that comes with baggage, you also get the spirits. If you are OK with all that, then, go ahead, and show us the dates and how they arrive at them for the first human king of Egypt. Let's see what is actually on offer here.

The dates are listed on the Palermo stone and the Turin list.

Well, before we get to that, we need to get past the spirits. Then, if you can accept them in your package deal, we need to look at how any particular king is dated.

This argument is about the Egyptian dynastic rule from 3,000 B.C. to 31 B.C. If you do not want to go by the dates of the Turin list and Palermo stone, that is your problem.
The "spirits" and "gods" are not a problem because after 1500 years of Egyptian rule, the first kings would be revered enough to become "spirits" and "gods". Even in later dynasties pharaohs were considered living gods so it moots your point.

No. No one in their right mind thinks they were ghosts. There is no reason to assume less devolved folks, mentally, than modern man would be so retarded.

Maybe in the future you should actually read what I say.
We have done the same with our first presidents. Washington and the apple tree... Granted, we do not view them as "spirits" or "gods" but we often give them credit for more deeds than they have done.

Because they were butwhipped so bad that they tried to cover up, would be my guess.

Or it never happened.

You forgot to show us how Ahmose gets datede 1500 years?

By working from Cleopatra and going backwards for how long each king/queen ruled. There are records, as you so often claim.

The Turin list is not accurate, apparently, in the way you seem to think.
The Turin King List

According the the list, Menes inherited the throne from Horus and ruled for 62 years until he was killed by a hippo. 62 years is not hundreds of years.

Then it is garbage. Not reliable for actual time.

Then stop using it.

I refer to the lists because they note spirits lived among men in the early days, not for dating.

And according to many animistic cultures that exist currently spirits still live among men.

No, the core is possibly spiritual also material, so they misread the evidence. Truth is they don't know. Really.

So you are saying the core is "spiritual also" material in the "present state"? I stated:

Great heat is being produced right now and it is not killing us. The core of the earth is several thousand degrees and it is not killing us. That means it could still have been the "present state" considering the heat earth is making right now and we are all just fine.

Why not show us some from each state? We'll have a look. Are you sure we even get it in this state?

It is happening at this very moment. Thrust faults, subduction zones, etc.

What can you tell us about it? So far, it seems it may or may not have been under water. Whopee do. How about the microscopic composition? Anything that makes it same state, and identical to, say, something Mount St Helens cooked up, or whatever?

Pillow lavas are bulbous, spherical, or tubular lobes of lava. They form during eruptions with relatively low effusion rates. Slow extrusion gives enough time for a thick crust to form on all sides of a pillow lobe, and prevents individual pillows from coalescing into a sheet. Internally the pillows are fed via a distributary system of interconnected channels. Pillows are not typically hollow and tend to solidify all the way through. Pillows often have lineations or scrape marks on their sides that form during extrusion.
They are created when magma reaches the surface but, as there is a large difference in temperature between the lava and the water, the surface of the emergent tongue cools very quickly, forming a skin. The tongue continues to lengthen and inflate with more lava, forming a lobe, until the pressure of the magma becomes sufficient to rupture the skin and start the formation of a new eruption point nearer the vent. This process produces a series of interconnecting lobate shapes that are pillow-like in cross-section. The skin cools a lot faster than the inside of the pillow, so it is very fine grained, with a glassy texture. The magma inside the pillow cools more slowly, so is slightly coarser grained than the skin, but still classified as fine grained.

Dated?? How, precisely? There are formations on high mountains said to be older than what is under them. But they got pushed up. Can you prove the area had no disturbance and was underwater when it formed?? Otherwise, you are are blowing smoke.

The date is not the issue. I want you to give an explanation as to how pillow lava would form in places other than underwater. You have claimed that you can give explanations of how the "past state" worked. Let me have it. A scientific explanation of "past state" pillow lava formation.

 

[dad]

Actually, you are exploring nothing.

Actually, I am to, nya nya. I know I am, but what are you?

 

[dad]

Nah, driewerf. Nah. When Dad tells you to work on something, you work on it.

Understand.

You tell em.

 

[Orogeny]

Is that what you really want?

 

[dad]

Is that what you really want?

Is what what who really wants? I think anyone reading a thread would want you to be clear.