Missing link was a lie

[driewerf]

Say what??? Does that mean you admit that you cannot sustain the unholy grail of evo doctrine...slow evolving in the past?? Is this what you are admitting here? Or is your English so pathetic that you are claiming you can? If so, then do it. If not, you lose.

I would appreciate it, if you stayed polite.
I will not defend classical evolution here. I want to see you to give evidence for your different fantastic claims. Rapid evolution being a very good point to start with.

The evidence for the timeframe of what came down is outside the little rabbit hole of science.

You clearly underestimate science.

So that means, for those slow to get it, that the proofs are also outside of science.

Once you make a claim about the physical world, you are in the realm of science.

The records of the bible, and history are outside of science.

No, they aren't. Many scientific discplines - archeology is the most welknown deal with hisory in a scientific way.

They indicate a world so different from this state, that our rules don't apply there. That is where it is at.

It would be a step forward if you would say in what way this past was different.

 

[BananaSlug]

I don't claim it is all that. I merely point out that it records spirits as real things, right here among men. The details of fates, and order of succession, etc, I don't use.

If the order of succession is wrong then wouldn't the "spirit king" records be wrong too?

Unknown. You can't wave it away like that. Sure we need a grain of salt, with pagan records, a large grain, but some basics of life can be gleaned from the records.

Then I guess all of the other myths and legends from around the world are true right? Hinduism is just as true as Christianity?

That depends on whether you want accurate dates for the spirit kings or just the info that there were such things!

If you claim the dates are not accurate then why would anything else be accurate? It claims one of the spirit kings ruled for ~7,000 years. Why do you not believe that?

But it is not just the one list, or even country that records spirits. That is just one piece of evidence in many.

And the Turin list is just one piece of evidence of many that the Egyptian Empire lasted from 3100 B.C.-31 B.C.

What's a naga?

A spirit serpent. The naga protected the Buddha from the rain during his meditation.

If there was some spirits helping, why would that bother me? If they didn't confess that Jesus is the Christ, and come in the flesh, they are not good spirits, however.

Why would evil spirits help people?

Speculation. They also recorded actual people!

Exactly. Actual people who were deified.

Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs were the ancient kings of Egypt. Pharaohs were considered one of the more important of all the Egyptian gods. While a pharaoh was ruling, he took on the "incarnation" of the god Horus and the son of Re. Once the pharaoh died, he was identified with the god Osiris, the god of the underworld.

All early records have some sort of spirits in them, no? The fact that the only records we have of the time list spirits as real kings is significant. We need to take them for what they are, and that is not a reliable dating device.

So now they are not "ridiculous records made by some insane scribbler"? Why the flip-flopping?

Spirits can do that...so?? They can and do inhabit living creatures. However, they are not actual spirit beings, that man sees now. We merely see the body they live in. Before, it was a different degree of presence, where the sons of god actually married women, etc. They had kids, even. Maybe some of those were deified..?! After all, they became men of renown.

All a shaman has to do to see spirits is imbibe the brew of the spirits, ayahuasca, iboga, etc.

People today claim that aliens impregnate them, then remove the fetus. Would you consider that to be true?

Well, even if a different state rock had a much lower melt point, or some such, I see no reason to assume that magma could not be produced?

What was the melting point of the "past state" rock?

But do show us, if you have some evidence that would require a tweak in that little dept.. Why would it matter?

You claimed that heat was created during the movement of the continents. That is heat caused by friction and pressure which is the same as today.

No. Look at the curse, after the fall. We had the ground, or earth where man lived, the surface, in other words, that was affected. Do you have some reason to say that the eternal foundations of the earth were also cursed?? That would be news to me.

So that means I could travel to the core of the earth and experience the "spiritual also" state? How close to the surface of the earth does the "spiritual also" state come? Would it be shallow enough to dig to with the right equipment?

So, what it would appear to me, is that man's world, the surface area was changed. Why do I assume that the stars, and inner earth, and fabric and laws and forces and light were not changed at the time of the fall, you ask? Because there were still clear differences till after the flood! In fact, even at the time of the split, which was the time of Babel as well, if I calculate right, spirits were right nearby, in the sky level! They tried to build up to this 'heaven'!! Why do you think they were stopped? If you look at the time just before the flood, when the Almighty God Himself, Personally announced some big change was coming down the pipes in 120 years...we still see the angels marrying gals in the VERY verse before!

So is space "spiritual also" or just the core of the earth?

We need to ask when the heat came to be, and how much there was! If it was right at the tail end of the continental separation, for example, when the laws were then present state, we would get a lot of heat! Enough, I wager, to remain under there for thousands of years!! Sometime I may look into a possible connection there, with how the stuff that makes geysers at Yellowstone has been cooling over time..

Then how do you explain the fact that the Yellowstone caldera is becoming more active?

Well, all you have done is make a point at last, that is semi clear. Easy as pie to address, though. You say that "we know" that pillow lava "IS formed" in water. How would you know that ancient pre flood pillow lava needed to also be formed that way? You haven't even showed us any yet! You mention one site in Australia, and failed to reply when asked of details about it! Do your homework.

How did "past state" pillow lava form? It shouldn't be that hard to explain if you are in fact "God's little echo"...

 

[Orogeny]

I don't mind you learning about the world around you. Kids do that.

So you're saying that learing, or wanting to learn, is childish? Have you stopped learning, dad? Do you know everything there is to know?

However, making stuff up, based on fantasy worlds in the past is not allowed any more.

Picard so hard.

Look bro, I'm not going to get in a long-winded argument with you here. You tried to use actual science to support your claims, and failed. I pointed this out and showed that you haven't the slightest understanding of the 'evidence' that you used for your own argument. My point has been made, so I'm not going to join you in beating your different state dead horse. I know it doesn't need to be said, but I'll say it again: Stick to 'Goddidit', because you trying to utilize science is a recipe for way more lulz than any of us can handle.

 

[Lakercom]

Thanks for all your information and your constant reminders of the unproven same state past and unknowable different state future, aside from the Word of God.

Please give me a summary of "the split". I think you are referring to the division of the continents during and/or after the flood.

Keep up the good work but don't burn yourself out ..... words Moses father-in-law once said (I think). Too bad more of us don't pitch in with support but I have heard it said that it is not likely to debate an atheist into faith. The Spirit must draw him first.

I am a YEC and rather excited about a Creation speaker we had at our church Thursday night. The church was packed.

Some interesting points made by Dr. Emil Sylvestru who has degrees in Geology and "Caves":

-why do we wear clothes?
-why can't a person marry him/herself?
- the (evolutionary) tree of life became a bush with several parallel "trunks", then became a web and now it is "we don't know" ...... (I think) it now has to be described as a matrix. The reason I say this is that genes are all interconnected and do not "show up in evolution" in a linear fashion.
-Dr. Sylvestru did not become a born again Christian (and YEC) until the nineties. He was a day age and/or gap Creationist before then.

 

[dad]

Thanks for all your information and your constant reminders of the unproven same state past and unknowable different state future, aside from the Word of God.

Good to know someone reads some of this stuff..

Please give me a summary of "the split". I think you are referring to the division of the continents during and/or after the flood.

Well, the split is a name for a major universe state change. Somewhat like the total change coming in the future, the new heavens and new earth. In that state, things will be very different. The very fabric of the universe and laws, and forces. For example, the sun will never burn out, but is forever. If science was right, in THIS state, it would burn out. But we will not be in this state. The similarities between New Jerusalem, and Eden are stark. The tree of life, rapid pant growth, different properties of matter in creation week, and different light, eternal life, and etc. The idea of the split, or universe state change is basically that a major change happened at the fall of man, but that affected the surface of the earth. The ground. The area man lived. But the universe, under this idea, was still in the created state, and therefore the laws, and forces. This very much affected the earth, despite the death, and curse. Life spans were long, and trees could grow fast, light was different, and etc. It wasn't until over a century after the flood, if I calculate right, that the present state came to exist. This allowed for rapid evolution, water above the earth, water leaving the planet after the flood, long lifespans, spiritual beings directly mingling with men, rapid continental separation without great heat, and etc etc etc.

Keep up the good work but don't burn yourself out ..... words Moses father-in-law once said (I think). Too bad more of us don't pitch in with support but I have heard it said that it is not likely to debate an atheist into faith. The Spirit must draw him first.

You are probably right, I must confess, I aim to defeat them for the sake of lurkers, and posterity.

I am a YEC and rather excited about a Creation speaker we had at our church Thursday night. The church was packed.

Some interesting points made by Dr. Emil Sylvestru who has degrees in Geology and "Caves":

-why do we wear clothes?
-why can't a person marry him/herself?
- the (evolutionary) tree of life became a bush with several parallel "trunks", then became a web and now it is "we don't know" ...... (I think) it now has to be described as a matrix. The reason I say this is that genes are all interconnected and do not "show up in evolution" in a linear fashion.
-Dr. Sylvestru did not become a born again Christian (and YEC) until the nineties. He was a day age and/or gap Creationist before then.

Well, hopefully the guy will learn in his new .life. Sounds confusing to me. I prefer to accept real science, as far as it goes. Trying to explain away evolving seems like a losing game. Thanks....

 

[dad]

So you're saying that learing, or wanting to learn, is childish? Have you stopped learning, dad? Do you know everything there is to know?

No. I am saying the reach and abilities of physical only science is childish in comparison to spiritual also knowledge.

Picard so hard.

Not sure what that means. Star trek? What, the captain saw a pretty gal?

Look bro, I'm not going to get in a long-winded argument with you here. You tried to use actual science to support your claims, and failed.

Say what?? Specifics?

I pointed this out and showed that you haven't the slightest understanding of the 'evidence' that you used for your own argument. My point has been made, so I'm not going to join you in beating your different state dead horse. I know it doesn't need to be said, but I'll say it again: Stick to 'Goddidit', because you trying to utilize science is a recipe for way more lulz than any of us can handle.

So you prefer murky self aggrandizing sweet not hings, to clear points. OK.

 

[sandwiches]

You are probably right, I must confess, I aim to defeat them for the sake of lurkers, and posterity.

This is very easy to do. You just need to provide objectively verifiable evidence for your claims.

Until then, all you're leaving for posterity is clear evidence of your willful ignorance backed by empty rhetoric and platitudes. As many have said, nothing makes more atheists than fundamentalists, Bible literalists, and YECers, such as yourself. So, thank you.

 

[dad]

I would appreciate it, if you stayed polite.
I will not defend classical evolution here. I want to see you to give evidence for your different fantastic claims. Rapid evolution being a very good point to start with.

Science doesn't know. The bible timeframe supports fast. Questions?

You clearly underestimate science.

Not at all. In fact, I think I treat the ignorant little dwarf of a religion too kindly. I maybe should take off the kid gloves.

Once you make a claim about the physical world, you are in the realm of science.

Nope. Not if that claim is before either science, or the physical world we know existed.

No, they aren't. Many scientific discplines - archeology is the most welknown deal with hisory in a scientific way.

Rubbish. They bow to same state religion dates. I would be embarrassed to associate with them.

It would be a step forward if you would say in what way this past was different.

It included a spiritual element.

 

[dad]

This is very easy to do. You just need to provide objectively verifiable evidence for your claims.

Nope. I need a bible case, and you to fail to prove the present is the key to the past. I have that. In spades.

Until then, all you're leaving for posterity is clear evidence of your willful ignorance backed by empty rhetoric and platitudes. As many have said, nothing makes more atheists than fundamentalists, Bible literalists, and YECers, such as yourself. So, thank you.

Nothing makes an atheist. They don't exist. Consider me an atheist to your same state beliefs.

 

[dad]

bananaslug ...

I will reply later....

 

[driewerf]

Science doesn't know. The bible timeframe supports fast. Questions?

How does the bible support it? Is there a list of which species split from the other?

And the dog begat the wolf. And the wolf begat the fox. And the fox begat the dingo.(etc etc)

Is there such a list? No.
Otherwise you support your claims by a whole list of biblical verses. I don't accept the bible as an authority, but that's an other discussion. But the fact that you even don't try to sustain your claim with biblical support proves that you absolutely none. Your hypothtetical rapid evolution is a ad hoc hypothesis. An ad hoc hypotheses are always a symptom of being wrong.

Not at all. In fact, I think I treat the ignorant little dwarf of a religion too kindly. I maybe should take off the kid gloves.

Dad speaking about ignorance.
Science is no religion at all. It is the complete opposite of a religion. It is aspecially devoted to surch the truth, to make life better and to educate people. All thing religion is not.

Nope. Not if that claim is before either science, or the physical world we know existed.

You have still not given the slightest inidaction of what this different state was. How we can have evidence of this different state etc.

 

[driewerf]

Well, the split is a name for a major universe state change. Somewhat like the total change coming in the future, the new heavens and new earth. In that state, things will be very different. The very fabric of the universe and laws, and forces. For example, the sun will never burn out, but is forever. If science was right, in THIS state, it would burn out. But we will not be in this state. The similarities between New Jerusalem, and Eden are stark. The tree of life, rapid pant growth, different properties of matter in creation week, and different light, eternal life, and etc. The idea of the split, or universe state change is basically that a major change happened at the fall of man, but that affected the surface of the earth. The ground. The area man lived. But the universe, under this idea, was still in the created state, and therefore the laws, and forces. This very much affected the earth, despite the death, and curse. Life spans were long, and trees could grow fast, light was different, and etc. It wasn't until over a century after the flood, if I calculate right, that the present state came to exist. This allowed for rapid evolution, water above the earth, water leaving the planet after the flood, long lifespans, spiritual beings directly mingling with men, rapid continental separation without great heat, and etc etc etc.
You are probably right, I must confess, I aim to defeat them for the sake of lurkers, and posterity.

With of course neither physical nor biblical evidence for all that.

 

[driewerf]

Well, the split is a name for a major universe state change. Somewhat like the total change coming in the future, the new heavens and new earth. In that state, things will be very different. The very fabric of the universe

In what way was the fabric different?
Matter wasn't made of atoms? Elektrons didn't orbit the atomic nucleus? The nucleus wasn't build of neutron and protons? So again, in what way was it different?

and laws, and forces.

Which one? the laws of gravitiy? General relativity? Thermodynamics?

For example, the sun will never burn out, but is forever.

Ow. Where will it get it's energy from then? What would renew the hydrogen after nuclear fusion? Does this work for all stars, or only for the sun? do you know where the sun gets its enegry from, anyway?

If science was right, in THIS state, it would burn out.

There is a Nobelprice to win for you, Dad. Why don't you apply for it?

But we will not be in this state. The similarities between New Jerusalem, and Eden are stark.

Fantaisies about a fututre, to avoid nasty questions about the past. That what you produce in this post.

The tree of life, rapid pant growth, different properties of matter in creation week,

Again, which one?
Was the boiling point of water different? Were there molecules etc?

and different light

How different light? Did light travel at a different speed? Did the Planck-constant differ? You the h in
E= hv

If so, what was it's value. How do you know that?

, eternal life

If there was eternal life, why had all the animals, Adam and Eve included a diggestive system, theeth etc?
, and etc.

In summary: a lot of questions remain. And other questions are coming up. Because, your "different state" is so in conflict with science that is is too ridiculous.

 

[dad]

How does the bible support it? Is there a list of which species split from the other?
Is there such a list? No.

The timeline is supported by geneology, and history. We have a narrow time frame from which all things had to happen. The first creatures were in Eden, some 6000 plus years ago.
It is known that the planet was largely not suitable for the creatures of Eden, and man. It is known that animals and man were commanded to spread out, and multiply.

From science, we know that the record of that spread involves a lot of evolving. Connecting the dots is all that is left there.

Otherwise you support your claims by a whole list of biblical verses. I don't accept the bible as an authority, but that's an other discussion. But the fact that you even don't try to sustain your claim with biblical support proves that you absolutely none. Your hypothtetical rapid evolution is a ad hoc hypothesis. An ad hoc hypotheses are always a symptom of being wrong.

Don't expect science to be too big for it's britches. If you do not accept the record of ancient history, or God, then you are left with ignorance. Science cannot support either state! It cannot sustain or refute a biblical claim. Like a 6 year old boy with a cork gun, shooting at a star. It just can't reach, no matter what the kid thinks.

Science is no religion at all. It is the complete opposite of a religion.

Not the so called science that flaps off at the beak about the future and creation! That is religion, belief. That is why you can't prove the same state past, plain and simple. No matter what you claim, or believe, you just do not seem to be doing it here. Think about it. Stop claiming you have pudding on the table, it ain't there. The proof is in the pudding, and you have none.

It is aspecially devoted to surch the truth, to make life better and to educate people. All thing religion is not.

It is devoted to omitting the spiritual and God from it's demonic beliefs. Insanely so.

You have still not given the slightest inidaction of what this different state was. How we can have evidence of this different state etc.

It was the created state, mentioned in detail in the bible, and similar to the future state, and also alluded to in part by ancient history. The different state is not just physical only, or temporal as our prison state is. It includes both, the physical, and the spiritual. Together, they whir into a new arrangement and balance, that result in forces, and light and laws that are not our laws or forces. One example of the different state is the sun in the future. It is forever. The sun today, at least according to science, would die in the future. As always, of course, they assume things will be the same beyond the present, so their prophesies of doom are false!

 

[dad]

With of course neither physical nor biblical evidence for all that.

If A becomes B, then you do not ask for some part of A to be B. If the past state was different, then you do not ask for the present state evidence for that. This physical state has a separate existence from the future state. An existence that will cease to exist one day. One does not pick up a present state rock, and hold it, and expect to examine a different state rock! No matter how you slice it, it will remain a present state rock!

If there is a dead bug in it, that died in the former state, and was fossilized, all we will see is a dead bug in a present state rock now! So, what evidence there is, you miss, and explain with your religious same state filter, that you think is science! Pitiful.

 

[Split Rock]

The timeline is supported by geneology, and history. We have a narrow time frame from which all things had to happen. The first creatures were in Eden, some 6000 plus years ago.

And that timeline is ALL WRONG! It is NOT supported by "history," only by a narrow-minded interpretation of scripture.

It is known that the planet was largely not suitable for the creatures of Eden, and man. It is known that animals and man were commanded to spread out, and multiply.

Why would your all -powerful and all-knowing God create a planet and an entire universe just for man, but one that is "not suitable" for him? Your theology is ridiculous!

From science, we know that the record of that spread involves a lot of evolving. Connecting the dots is all that is left there.

From science we know that 6,000 years is not enough for all such evolving, and from science we know the earth is not only 6,000 years old!

 

[sandwiches]

Nope. I need a bible case, and you to fail to prove the present is the key to the past. I have that. In spades.

So, you're admitting to having no evidence. No need to. We already figured that one out.

Nothing makes an atheist. They don't exist. Consider me an atheist to your same state beliefs.

I thought atheists didn't exist. Which is it, dad? You can't even make sense or stay congruent within the same paragraph.

 

[dad]

If the order of succession is wrong then wouldn't the "spirit king" records be wrong too?

I don't know. Have you a reason to say it is bang on? Every person listed existed, and was a king?

Then I guess all of the other myths and legends from around the world are true right? Hinduism is just as true as Christianity?

No. But they may have had or still have spiritual help. So, there is a difference between being real, and being true. They could have some reality.

If you claim the dates are not accurate then why would anything else be accurate? It claims one of the spirit kings ruled for ~7,000 years. Why do you not believe that?

Because it is a crock. So, yes, either some of it means something else, or is not accurate. Let's focus on the earliest part of the records. No succession matters there. They were spiritual, claim the Egyptians. This goes toward evidence that spirits were more directly among men. Just like the bible. It is commonly interpreted that sons of god, or angels married women, and had babies. I suppose they could have been considered gods, and spiritual, for good reasons. Yet the bible doesn't name them, or give a succession for them. But we can glean from the records the fact that spirits were considered quite real at one time. Not just real, they are real now also, but separate. They were considered present among us.

And the Turin list is just one piece of evidence of many that the Egyptian Empire lasted from 3100 B.C.-31 B.C.

No, it isn't evidence for that. Not when kings were claimed to rule 7000 years. That is why they use same state dating for the dates, and also why they are totally wrong on dates.

A spirit serpent. The naga protected the Buddha from the rain during his meditation.

Interesting. I wouldn't want a serpent spirit helper, myself. That sets off alarm bells for Christians.

Why would evil spirits help people?

A con job. The goal is the eternal destiny of men. If the devil afflicted some people under his authority to do so, then lifted the plague, or whatever, the people would think he helped them.

Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs were the ancient kings of Egypt. Pharaohs were considered one of the more important of all the Egyptian gods. While a pharaoh was ruling, he took on the "incarnation" of the god Horus and the son of Re. Once the pharaoh died, he was identified with the god Osiris, the god of the underworld.

Later, it may have been just the incarnation, because spirits were separate. The evidence mounts.

So now they are not "ridiculous records made by some insane scribbler"? Why the flip-flopping?

The dates that they provide are ridiculous, and not accepted as dependable even by godless science.

All a shaman has to do to see spirits is imbibe the brew of the spirits, ayahuasca, iboga, etc.

People today claim that aliens impregnate them, then remove the fetus. Would you consider that to be true?

No. I doubt it. Nothing moves on this planet anywhere, anyhow, without permission. It isn't a free for all. I would suspect that other groups of wicked men use that as a cover.

What was the melting point of the "past state" rock?

How would we know? It is safe to say, that it was not the same.

You claimed that heat was created during the movement of the continents. That is heat caused by friction and pressure which is the same as today.

Right. Here is at issue.my deductive process of thinking on that issue. If the split caused the separation to begin with somehow, in other words, was the mechanism, (whether by earth starting to revolve, or whatever)--then it started, and progressed somewhat in the different state. Since it was right at the time of the split, as it finished up, we were in this present state, therefore, a lot of heat would be produced.

So that means I could travel to the core of the earth and experience the "spiritual also" state? How close to the surface of the earth does the "spiritual also" state come? Would it be shallow enough to dig to with the right equipment?

Science doesn't know. I believe that the core is not hot, but do not know. What are the reasons they claim it must be hot? Non existent old ages, and a non existent big bang. That is all hogwash. So, why must it be hot? Only if it was created hot. I see no reason for that. Is New Jerusalem created hot?? Makes no sense. The heat we do have, not all that far down, is easily explained by other means than a same state past.

So is space "spiritual also" or just the core of the earth?

Not the space man knows. Not our solar system. I don't know about the rest of the far away universe. I am open to either. If is is all present state, fine with me. If not, that is fine too. I saw an articles yeaterday that was a real scream. The people pronouncing so called science decrees on the far away universe are laughable.

When faced with overwhelming evidence that their ideas are a joke, and wrong, they invent absurd things to try and keep sounding like they deserve a grant, and have some clue!!

"
The background appears to be the sum of radio emissions from all ordinary galaxies, both nearby and distant, but because there are so many more distant ones, these are the ones that dominate. It would add up to an infinite amount were it not for the fact that the Universe is expanding and has a finite age.
Having found one solution, the team faced another difficult problem. In the local universe, most radio emission is associated with supernova remnants in regions of star formation. The radio emission seems to be tightly linked with the infrared emission which star formation regions also produce. The infrared sky background should, therefore, match the radio background. However measurements of the infrared background predict a radio background between three and ten times less than ARCADE-2's observations."


Have black holes been turning up the volume on the cosmic radio background?

Then how do you explain the fact that the Yellowstone caldera is becoming more active?

I don't know. My first inclination is to ask whether there is basement movement, that would add to the heat there already. Residual movement, if you will. Like in Iceland.

How did "past state" pillow lava form? It shouldn't be that hard to explain if you are in fact "God's little echo"...

First, show me some. Then we can play detective. So far, no one has done that...or stuck around to discuss details of the Aussie formation they did toss out.

 

[dad]

So, you're admitting to having no evidence. No need to. We already figured that one out.

I admit science has no evidence either way.

I thought atheists didn't exist. Which is it, dad? You can't even make sense or stay congruent within the same paragraph.

There are those that call themselves that. They exist as a group, not in the pure meaning of the word.

 

[Split Rock]

I admit science has no evidence either way.

Then why do you claim that all the evidence and science supports your split/merge nonsense? Make up you mind!