Missing half the debate.. Opinions welcome.

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Jade Margery

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I found an interesting article today containing two debated positions. I read the first and although I don't agree with everything the man says, I think he has a pretty good argument to support his assertion. When I went to read the rebuttal though, I was disappointed to find that his opponent's argument contained almost nothing objectively meaningful and mostly concerned itself with misquoting and attacking the other guy.

This strikes me as rather unfair, because I am sure that a reasonable rebuttal can be made without the character attacks, and I would very much like to hear it. If anyone would like to take up the other side of this debate, please do so. To clarify, I will not be arguing against you or refuting your opinion, I just want to know how a serious believer would respond to the points illustrated.
 

Chesterton

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The headline says Dennett and Winston "present their arguments ahead of tonight's public debate", so Winston's statement is not actually a rebuttal. That's why it could appear as if there's misquoting going on, but I presume that's because Winston is presenting the ideas of Dennett's that he intends to attack, and those ideas are from previous knowledge of Dennett's positions, not from his immediately preceding statement.

As far as character attacks, I don't see any. At one point, Winston evens refers to Dennett with "Like many of my brilliant scientific colleagues..." Gee, I wish we were so generous here on CF. :)

I know that's not the reply you asked for, but I wanted to mention that's how I read it.
 
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Stinker

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It is strange how many secularists think that only religious fanatics are capable of committing mass murder. I have only heard, of the many situations where this has occurred, of these murderers doing it because of non-religious reasons.
 
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Ch0rax

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Hi Jade,

I would agree with what Chesteron said and I also saw no evidence of character attacks on the part of Lord Winston. I thought that Lord Winston brought up quite a few good points in his outline.

But I'll and address a few of the points brought up by Professor Daniel Dennett:

Professor Daniel Dennett said:
It is high time we inverted the public attitude about religion as well, finding all socially destructive acts of religious passion shameful, not honourable, and holding those who abet them - the preachers and other apologists for religious zeal - as culpable as the bartenders and negligent hosts who usher dangerous drivers on to the highways. Our motto should be: Friends don't let friends steer their lives by religion.

And just what "socially destructive acts" is he referring to? Preachers sharing the Gospel message and apologists who defend the faith? If someone wants to listen and feels convinced and wants to believe then it is their right. I won't want to infringe on someone's freewill and religious liberties. I mean, it isn't as though they are evil guys and gals who are willingly lying or intentionally spreading mistruth.

I guess it goes without saying that his "argument" though flawed works both ways. Firstly, it already presupposes that God doesn't exist - reverse the assumption and it would be the atheists who are doing "socially destructive acts" (i.e. spreading falsehood, if I understood the implication properly). Secondly, if God does exist and Jesus is the risen Lord (which the evidence seems to strongly suggest - see Lee Strobel's book The Case For Christ or Josh McDowell's Evidence That Demands A Verdict for example), then wouldn't it be a Christians responsibility out of love to want to share that message with people they meet? To know what the consequences of someone's sinful lifestyle are and not warn people would be the equivalent of "negligent hosts who usher dangerous drivers on to the highways."

Professor Daniel Dennett said:
We're living in the 21st century, and in "liberated" Afghanistan (not Taliban Afghanistan) blasphemy is still a capital crime.

We're talking about a completely different culture in almost everyway. Though liberated, what gives us the right to tell them what is and what is not right? Also, do you consider being executed for smuggling drugs into some Asian country "just"? What about the corruption in those same countries and the lack of the legal process and presumptions that one enjoys in the West? I don't have such arrogant presumptions that my views are correct and that other people's views are stupid, illogical, and wrong and so have them conform to mine as the atheist in the article seems to have: that anything contrary to his beliefs are crazy and irrational.

That is one of the reasons why US involvement in the Vietnam war was halted: the public questioned the morality of the fight. In previous wars it was obvious why they were fought - good versus evil. But here we saw that right and wrong were largely dependant on the person's political views. Similarly, from their point of view, we are the ones who are too stupid to realise the truth and wrong. If God did indeed write the Koran and He has a personhood (that is, the elements we generally ascribe to people like personality), then it stands to reason that He, like us, has things that pleases Him and things that make Him angry. So if you believe the Koran is true then you'll want to do those things that God says pleases Him, and avoid doing things that angers Him. Ditto for other religions like Judaism and Christianity. That is the rational thing to do. Would it not be irrational that if God exists to shun His existence and rebel with your fist in the air?

Professor Daniel Dennett said:
And - this is the worst of it - religious faith can give people a sort of hyperbolic confidence, an utter unconcern about whether they might be making a mistake, that enables acts of inhumanity that would otherwise be unthinkable.

As was previously alluded to by Stinker, history to be blunt simply doesn't back this up. Consider the major nut-jobs (e.g. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot), wars, and genocides in the last century alone, including the Holocaust, Rwanda, among many others. Not one, not one of these was caused by religion.

Even in Northern Ireland back in the day, it wasn't a religious fight, but one about politics and land (about England's control, for example). It is much easier to convince people to fight or support the fight when you manipulate people into believing that what they believe, that who they are, is being threatened. We see this occurring even today with bin Laden and company, but people who are not religious have also employed this tactic throughout history (e.g. Hitler). Of course, "religious" people can do bad things in what they believe to be right and that is indeed sad. But rather than religion being the problem, the real cause of evil in this world is sin. We are fallen people and as a result will do bad things. Case in point, we always find it easier to do the wrong thing than the right - why do you think this is?

The author may also consider the many ways in which religion has made the world a better place - in any natural disaster, aid, and other related things it is the religious organisations and people who are at the forefront of the response. A few noteable examples are The Salvation Army and Mercy Ships, and Compassion. The majority of providers of social services are, in the West anyway, Christian run who serve people regardless of their religion.

Also, just so someone says it, are not atheists equally assured about their view that God does not exist even where the evidence seems contradictory to their assertions, or to use his phrase "a hyperbolic confidence, an utter unconcern about whether they may be making a mistake."

Professor Daniel Dennett said:
This imperviousness to reason is, I think, the property that we should most fear in religion.

Once again, irrationality being defined as anything contrary to this author's point-of-view...

Right... and his statement clearly explains why there are so many Christian scientists, great apologists, and so on. In fact, many of the fathers and pioneers of the various science branches were themselves committed Christians (such as Boyle, Newton, Faraday, Babbage, Joule, Lord Kelvin, Wright brothers, among others) who believing that God made everything in six days believed that by discovering more about the world they could learn more about Him.

One example that really amplifies a major flaw in the atheist's reasoning is that the universe is an orderly and logical. Should we expect order and logic to come from chaos? No. It is much more reasonable to argue, like Johannes Kepler did, that since the universe was designed by an intelligent Creator, it should function according to some logical pattern. Where others gave up because they believed the former, Kepler's faith led him to a way of thinking which eventually enabled him to solve the riddle of planetary motion.

Far from preventing the advancement of science, Christians have and are often at the forefront of research. Christianity through great thinkers and apologists (like Lewis, J. P. Moreland, W. L. Craig, and others) have upheld the Bible against anything that sceptics have thrown at it by answering and dismantling their arguments.

Kind regards. :)
 
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Bible2

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Jade Margery posted in message #1 of this thread:

I just want to know how a serious believer would respond to the
points illustrated.

Greetings.

Regarding "socially destructive acts of religious passion", Jesus said:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to
send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance
against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the
daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be
they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more
than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter
more than me is not worthy of me" (Matthew 10:34-37). While
this refers to the destruction of the concord of families when only
some members in those families become serious, passionate
Christians while others do not, this in no way refers to Christians
committing any violence. For Jesus expressly forbids Christians to
commit any sort of violence, even in self-defense: "I say unto you,
That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right
cheek, turn to him the other also" (Matthew 5:39); "for all they that
take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Matthew 26:52).

Regarding "in 'liberated' Afghanistan (not Taliban Afghanistan)
blasphemy is still a capital crime", in the teachings of Jesus only one
sort of blasphemy is equivalent to a capital crime: "Verily I say unto
you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies
wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme
against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of
eternal damnation" (Mark 3:28-29). And it is not Christians who
enforce Jesus' "capital punishment" of eternal damnation, but only
Jesus himself, the Son of God, who is the only Judge of the eternal
destiny of people. For God the Father "hath committed all judgment
unto the Son" (John 5:22), and at the last judgment it is Jesus alone
who will say unto the unsaved: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into
everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ... And these
shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life
eternal" (Matthew 25:41,46).
 
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Van

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Is religion a threat to rationality and science?



[FONT=&quot]Thanks for the opportunity to provide a rebuttal. First, religion is left undefined, and thus the belief system of the non-religion is left shrouded in mystery. The issue becomes “what are the faults of some religious activists” without a comparison to “what are the faults of some anti-religious activists.” Therefore the question is framed to support a non-religious viewpoint. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As an opening gambit, Professor Dennett poses the question, “If religion isn’t the greatest threat to rationality and scientific progress, what it?” How about the viewpoint that the best view is known, and compulsion should be used to require adoption. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Next Dennett claims the religion “clouds our critical faculties” and then honors the disability. But the religious say life begins at conception, but the godless left says that critical judgment “is above my pay grade.” Next, if someone kills a pregnant woman and both the mother and child die, the killer is guilty of a double homicide. So critical thinking is barred by judicial edict on the one hand, and proclaimed on the other. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Next, the problem of religious compulsion, or non-religious compulsion is highlighted by a government that makes blasphemy a capital crime. Around 30 million folks died in Stalinist Russia for speaking against Stalin. So again, critical thinking shows that the real problem is compulsion for a particular view. To maintain that problem is only for the religious is obviously absurd.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Next, the fear that Muslims might nuke non-Muslims is placed on one side of the ledger, but the fear that the godless leaders of North Korea are nowhere to be found. Again and again it seems, rationality has been placed on the alter of atheism.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]And the final argument of Professor Dennett is that God is imaginary, so it would be better to shift devotion from God to something real such as environmentalism. This argument contains two flaws, one it assumes facts not in evidence – God is imaginary – and two it assumes devotion to God would hinder devotion to our God given environment.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]In summary, the threat to rationality and science, seems to come from know-it-alls. [/FONT]
 
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freeport

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I found an interesting article today containing two debated positions. I read the first and although I don't agree with everything the man says, I think he has a pretty good argument to support his assertion. When I went to read the rebuttal though, I was disappointed to find that his opponent's argument contained almost nothing objectively meaningful and mostly concerned itself with misquoting and attacking the other guy.

This strikes me as rather unfair, because I am sure that a reasonable rebuttal can be made without the character attacks, and I would very much like to hear it. If anyone would like to take up the other side of this debate, please do so. To clarify, I will not be arguing against you or refuting your opinion, I just want to know how a serious believer would respond to the points illustrated.

Character attacks... slander. That is nearly modern politics for you.

I won't go and read some outside site, however, if someone wants to make a point, please make it. Don't think anyone has much original of anything to say. They really do not. It has all been said before.


Debates... pretty useless.

Truth? No. Truth is everything.
 
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