Cynical, Hypocritical Use of Language by the Left

[FireDragon76]

For that to be true, it needs to be demonstrated how anti-Zionism is the same as anti-Semitism.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

For that to be true, it needs to be demonstrated how anti-Zionism is the same as anti-Semitism.

The ideological difference between "anti-Zionism" and antisemitism is equivalent to the difference between people who fly the confederate flag because they yearn for the days when "certain people knew their place" and people who fly it claiming "it's just about states' rights and pride in southern heritage"

In the latter case, it's because either people don't understand the implications or the history (ignorance)...or they're using it as cover in order to be able to fly a banner and send a message that they know what it really means and is offending the exact type of people they want to offend, but want to be able to claim plausible deniability when called out for it. (dogwhistle)

 

[RocksInMyHead]

The ideological difference between "anti-Zionism" and antisemitism is equivalent to the difference between people who fly the confederate flag because they yearn for the days when "certain people knew their place" and people who fly it claiming "it's just about states' rights and pride in southern heritage"

Define "Zionism" in a modern context. What does it mean when someone calls themself a "Zionist" today?

 

[RDKirk]

Define "Zionism" in a modern context. What does it mean when someone calls themself a "Zionist" today?

ThatRobGuy said:
The ideological difference between "anti-Zionism" and antisemitism is equivalent to the difference between people who fly the confederate flag because they yearn for the days when "certain people knew their place" and people who fly it claiming "it's just about states' rights and pride in southern heritage"

Attempting to find the definition of Zionism today will still boil down to two only slightly different ideologies such as ThatRobGuy commented, and the difference is slight enough not to matter to anyone but themselves in their own heads.

 

[FireDragon76]

The ideological difference between "anti-Zionism" and antisemitism is equivalent to the difference between people who fly the confederate flag because they yearn for the days when "certain people knew their place" and people who fly it claiming "it's just about states' rights and pride in southern heritage"

That's a ridiculous analogy, and isn't true to the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Palestinians were not equivalent to southern slaveholders.

This is more like Orangemen vs. Republicans in Derry.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Attempting to find the definition of Zionism today will still boil down to two only slightly different ideologies such as ThatRobGuy commented, and the difference is slight enough not to matter to anyone but themselves in their own heads.

Humor me.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Define "Zionism" in a modern context. What does it mean when someone calls themself a "Zionist" today?

It's not so much about the definition held by someone who would consider themselves a "Zionist" (in the purely semantic sense - defined as "advocate for the statehood and protection of the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland")

It's how the "anti-Zionist" position/rhetoric is often joined at the hip with several other controversial and problematic ideologies

Much like the modern "Anti-fascist" movement is about a whole lot more than just merely opposing fascism.

Or, as a perhaps better example. Having a position of "all lives equally mattering" in a purely semantic sense, in and of itself, isn't anything controversial. However, if someone is going out of their way to put an "All Lives Matter" sticker on the back of their truck or use it as a slogan at a counter-protest, we all know that position is more than what's being described at face value...it's meant as an indirect jab at what they really want to oppose, which is the "Black Lives Matter" message, but in a way that gives them plausible deniability and the ability to rebuttal with "well what's so bad about thinking that all lives matter???" when called out for it.

Anti-Zionism as Antisemitism: How Anti-Zionist Language from the Left and Right Vilifies Jews

www.adl.org

 

[ThatRobGuy]

That's a ridiculous analogy, and isn't true to the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Palestinians were not equivalent to southern slaveholders.

This is more like Orangemen vs. Republicans in Derry.

The point of my analogy wasn't to suggest that the Palestinians were slave holders.

The point was to highlight the semantic-overload rhetorical tool that advocates for both employ.

Where they're taking up a mantle that they know is controversial (and they know the reasons why), but then reverting to the more innocuous sounding definition when called out for it.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

"Even at the cost of jewish lives"? Ending jewish lives is the entire point.

Not that I agree with Hamas invasion. Just like I don't agree with Putin terrorists attack. I hope they are both put out of power. But it's seems like someone worse, seems to come into power. There are Christians, Muslims and Jewish people on the Palestinians side. I don't waist time watching The Fox News channel.The have knowingly allowed their employees to lie, in the past. I doubt most people in America know enough to protest or defend Hamas. I believe they are just in the hype on a cause.

 

[rambot]

It's not so much about the definition held by someone who would consider themselves a "Zionist" (in the purely semantic sense - defined as "advocate for the statehood and protection of the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland")

It's not about the people who use the word correctly and who fit the literal description of an antizionist?


How could it literally be about anything else unless you're trying to insinuate something?

It's how the "anti-Zionist" position/rhetoric is often joined at the hip with several other controversial and problematic ideologies

That is categorically false but it is definitely the strategy that pro zionists are constantly trying to put forward to discredit antizionists.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

It's not so much about the definition held by someone who would consider themselves a "Zionist" (in the purely semantic sense - defined as "advocate for the statehood and protection of the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland")

I'd say that that definition of Zionism is a bit dated - the state of Israel has been established. These days, when I see someone explicitly call themselves a Zionist, they tend to be in favor of expansionistic settlements and policies that oppress the Palestinian/Arab minority in Israel.

It's how the "anti-Zionist" position/rhetoric is often joined at the hip with several other controversial and problematic ideologies

Much like the modern "Anti-fascist" movement is about a whole lot more than just merely opposing fascism.

That's fair, but someone who calls themself "anti-fascist" today does not necessarily subscribe to any of those controversial or problematic ideologies. There are plenty of people using it literally. The fact that certain people/groups have adopted a term does not necessarily change the meaning of the term in common usage.

Or, as a perhaps better example. Having a position of "all lives equally mattering" in a purely semantic sense, in and of itself, isn't anything controversial. However, if someone is going out of their way to put an "All Lives Matter" sticker on the back of their truck or use it as a slogan at a counter-protest, we all know that position is more than what's being described at face value...it's meant as an indirect jab at what they really want to oppose, which is the "Black Lives Matter" message, but in a way that gives them plausible deniability and the ability to rebuttal with "well what's so bad about thinking that all lives matter???" when called out for it.

Nope, the first example was better - "All Lives Matter" was created as a deliberately inflammatory response to "Black Lives Matter."

Anti-Zionism as Antisemitism: How Anti-Zionist Language from the Left and Right Vilifies Jews

www.adl.org

The ADL isn't really an unbiased source on this. There was quite a bit of dissention, even internally, related to their absolutist position that "anti-Zionism is antisemitism".

ADL Staffers Dissented After CEO Compared Palestinian Rights Groups…

A special meeting called to answer internal critics shows that the ADL’s vocal opposition to the anti-Zionist left is controversial even within the…

jewishcurrents.org

Haaretz: Progressive Jewish Leaders Decry ADL Chief Comparing…

"The signatories – including Judith Butler, Naomi Klein and Peter Beinart – warn that the watchdog head's characterization of anti-Zionist Jewish groups 'put us all at risk'"

www.jfrej.org

https://medium.com/@jewishleadersignonletter/we-must-fight-white-supremacy-with-solidarity-jews-respond-to-the-adls-harmful-campaign-c95c1b6f6984

 

[rambot]

Pay wall blocked

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Pay wall blocked

Apologies - updated with a non-paywalled source, as well as a link to the actual letter.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

It's not about the people who use the word correctly and who fit the literal description of an antizionist?

How could it literally be about anything else unless you're trying to insinuate something?

That is categorically false but it is definitely the strategy that pro zionists are constantly trying to put forward to discredit antizionists.

No, like I noted earlier, with a lot of modern movements, it's rarely contained/confined to just the literal definition.

Just to provide an example from the right that highlights what I'm talking about:

When someone from the right says they want a bill/policy/etc... and it has "Religious Freedom" in the name. Is it ever really just about religious freedom by it's pure definition? Or is it about religious freedom + 2 or 3 other things that just so happened to benefit them and their own viewpoints at the expense of others?

When someone is flying the "anti-Fascist" flag & symbolism, is it ever just about opposing fascism? Or is it coming with a bunch of other bundled ideologies with it?

And to say that sentiments against Zionism aren't heavily with other problematic ideologies would be false (appears we disagree on that)... Up until a few weeks ago, about the only time I ever encountered that word being heavily used is in the form of unhinged alt-right post on social media that are part of a larger antisemitic tangent.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

MSN

www.msn.com

She is clearly being disingenuous. Jews know exactly what she means.