Requirements of Reaching Heaven

[Cerraco]

I've been debating with someone who is one of the most diehard Christians I've ever known, and she believes (like nearly all Christians) that you must accept Christ and repent to enter heaven. Now, even as an atheist, I could sort of... almost... strangely accept that. However, she also believes that those who don't believe, even if they are neutral or good people, will suffer eternal hell. She thinks that only the blood of Christ can get you to heaven, and that's it. Nothing else. No exceptions.

Here's the problem, some of this seems extremely one-sided and unfair. I get we're all sinners/imperfect/etc., but condemning someone to an eternity of agony is just too much. That doesn't seem like a balanced punishment. I'm sure this is an easy topic for many Christians, because they believe that they're "set" and got the "hook up" to the good afterlife, while everyone else is on the fast track to hell. What if someone is raised under a different religion? What if someone never heard of Christ at all, or at least doesn't understand him? There are a lot of variables in the world, and it doesn't seem fair to a lot of people that they suffer forever just for not following some strict guidelines.

If someone has lived a disgusting, thieving and pain-spreading lifestyle, abusing his wife and kids until age 60, then repents and lives a "sin-free" life and dies at 70. He just gets to enter paradise? But if someone's raised Jewish, hardly done anything wrong but simply doesn't believe in Christ, that person just gets dropped in hell? Well gee, that doesn't sound very fair. See, if hell was for a limited time for some people, that would make sense, but eternity seems like too much.

 

[d taylor]

I've been debating with someone who is one of the most diehard Christians I've ever known, and she believes (like nearly all Christians) that you must accept Christ and repent to enter heaven. Now, even as an atheist, I could sort of... almost... strangely accept that. However, she also believes that those who don't believe, even if they are neutral or good people, will suffer eternal hell. She thinks that only the blood of Christ can get you to heaven, and that's it. Nothing else. No exceptions.

Here's the problem, some of this seems extremely one-sided and unfair. I get we're all sinners/imperfect/etc., but condemning someone to an eternity of agony is just too much. That doesn't seem like a balanced punishment. I'm sure this is an easy topic for many Christians, because they believe that they're "set" and got the "hook up" to the good afterlife, while everyone else is on the fast track to hell. What if someone is raised under a different religion? What if someone never heard of Christ at all, or at least doesn't understand him? There are a lot of variables in the world, and it doesn't seem fair to a lot of people that they suffer forever just for not following some strict guidelines.

If someone has lived a disgusting, thieving and pain-spreading lifestyle, abusing his wife and kids until age 60, then repents and lives a "sin-free" life and dies at 70. He just gets to enter paradise? But if someone's raised Jewish, hardly done anything wrong but simply doesn't believe in Christ, that person just gets dropped in hell? Well gee, that doesn't sound very fair. See, if hell was for a limited time for some people, that would make sense, but eternity seems like too much.

What it takes for a person to reach heaven (your wording)

Actually God is offering people His free gift of Eternal Life (The Life of God). This free gift is only received by believing in Jesus.

That means to believe that Jesus is the resurrection and the life, The promised Messiah/Christ Son of God from the prophecies of The Tanakh (Old Testament).

If a person believes this, they cross over from death to life and become a permanent born again child of God.

If a person never believes in Jesus they will die without the free gift of The Life of God and will spend eternity in the lake of fire (which is the second death).

To live with God in the next life on the new earth a person must have God's free gift of Eternal Life. If they do not, the only place they can go, is the place God has prepared for satan which is the lake of fire.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

I get we're all sinners/imperfect/etc., but condemning someone to an eternity of agony is just too much.

Sin is a rejection of God. God is life, so if you reject God you reject life.

God is just and every sin must be punished. Romans 6 23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
So if one sins, that person deserves death, and will be separated for eternity from God. Why death? Because that is what is just. We don't have to like it, but that's the reality.

What if someone never heard of Christ at all, or at least doesn't understand him?

God gives us all knowledge of Him. Romans 1 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
So we are all without excuse.

You ask why only Jesus? Why He is the only way? Because Jesus is the only one who died for the sins on the cross. He is the only one who took God's wrath, and paid for the sin of every believer. He is the only one withoit sin, He is the only mediator between God and man, He is the only one that can reconcile us to God.

There are a lot of variables in the world, and it doesn't seem fair to a lot of people that they suffer forever just for not following some strict guidelines.

It does not seem fair from your point of you, not God's. God is just and cannot be unjust. You know what's really not fair? When people do not praise God, do not thank Him, nothing. God creates us, gives us life, sends sun and rain and make ground nutritious so we have food to eat. Give us heartbeat, gives us air to breath. We cannot do any of these things. He lools after us 24/7 but no one thanks Him. He sends His Son to redeem us, sinners, who do nothing but sin, He suffers for our sins and dies. But no one thanks Him. Doesn't seem fair, won't you agree?

But if someone's raised Jewish, hardly done anything wrong but simply doesn't believe in Christ, that person just gets dropped in hell?

And where does your standard come from? Let's see what God says, because only that matters. Romans 3 10 “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
So God says not one of us is good. What now? You know what's the biggest sin? Not loving God. Or do you want God to reward people for constantly sinning and mocking God? Yet God judges no one today, so we can come to Christ and repent and live eternally. But, one day, one day this grace will stop, and He will judge all the sinners.

 

[St_Worm2]

I've been debating with someone who is one of the most diehard Christians I've ever known, and she believes (like nearly all Christians) that you must accept Christ and repent to enter heaven. She thinks that only the blood of Christ can get you to heaven, and that's it. Nothing else. No exceptions. If someone has lived a disgusting, thieving and pain-spreading lifestyle, abusing his wife and kids until age 60, then repents and lives a "sin-free" life and dies at 70. He just gets to enter paradise? But if someone's raised Jewish, hardly done anything wrong but simply doesn't believe in Christ, that person just gets dropped in hell? Well gee, that doesn't sound very fair. See, if hell was for a limited time for some people, that would make sense, but eternity seems like too much.

Hello Cerraco, those are some very good questions, and there's quite a bit there to unpack, so I'll just make one or two comments for now.

First, I think the problem that you're having with some of this may be your Christian friend's choice to NOT use the lowest common denominator to make such comparisons (like we so often do). IOW, she's not using Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, UBL, etc. as the basis for deciding who's good and who's not, rather, both she and Christianity use Jesus Christ as the standard and compare us to Him instead. So, all someone would have to do is to be as inherently good as He is (perfectly innocent/sinless, perfectly righteous and perfectly holy, from birth to death), and I'm pretty sure that an exception would be made for them.

Do you know anyone like that? I don't. Mother Tereasa, and even the Virgin Mary, told us that they needed to be saved from their sins (see below), and I can't think of anyone else in history, except for Jesus Himself, of course, who we would consider to be at the same level, much less higher-up, than those two women are on the "Good-O-Meter" scale.

Luke 1​

46 Mary said: “My soul exalts the Lord, ​

47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior. ​

Finally, you may want to consider this as well that, if by our standards, the "good" folks could make it into Heaven on the basis of their "goodness" alone, then why the Incarnation, and why the Cross? IOW, why did God send His only begotten Son down here to die that HORRIBLE death on the Cross to save us if it wasn't ABSOLUTELY necessary for Him to do so? Wouldn't that make God a monster (if that was actually the case), instead of the loving heavenly Father that He is?

I have some other thoughts about all of this, but this seems like a good place to stop and wait to hear what your thoughts are.

Talk to you soon I hope (Dv)

--David

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I've been debating with someone who is one of the most diehard Christians I've ever known, and she believes (like nearly all Christians) that you must accept Christ and repent to enter heaven. Now, even as an atheist, I could sort of... almost... strangely accept that. However, she also believes that those who don't believe, even if they are neutral or good people, will suffer eternal hell. She thinks that only the blood of Christ can get you to heaven, and that's it. Nothing else. No exceptions.

Here's the problem, some of this seems extremely one-sided and unfair. I get we're all sinners/imperfect/etc., but condemning someone to an eternity of agony is just too much. That doesn't seem like a balanced punishment. I'm sure this is an easy topic for many Christians, because they believe that they're "set" and got the "hook up" to the good afterlife, while everyone else is on the fast track to hell. What if someone is raised under a different religion? What if someone never heard of Christ at all, or at least doesn't understand him? There are a lot of variables in the world, and it doesn't seem fair to a lot of people that they suffer forever just for not following some strict guidelines.

If someone has lived a disgusting, thieving and pain-spreading lifestyle, abusing his wife and kids until age 60, then repents and lives a "sin-free" life and dies at 70. He just gets to enter paradise? But if someone's raised Jewish, hardly done anything wrong but simply doesn't believe in Christ, that person just gets dropped in hell? Well gee, that doesn't sound very fair. See, if hell was for a limited time for some people, that would make sense, but eternity seems like too much.

Why focus on her interpretation and view of Christianity as if it's the only one?

Y'know, you don't have to ...

 

[GTW27]

The Bible says that nothing unclean can enter in. Man is born unclean from birth because of the fall in the garden. The Lord has said, "Behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will enter him and sup(eat) with him." The entering in is a promise that Jesus made to all who would believe and repent. That He would send The Holy Spirit to endwell us. This is the requirement. Him in us, and us in Him. This is His special possession on The Day that He acts. Blessings!

 

[Clare73]

What it takes for a person to reach heaven (your wording)

Actually God is offering people His free gift of Eternal Life (The Life of God). This free gift is only received by believing in Jesus.

That means to believe that Jesus is the resurrection and the life, The promised Messiah/Christ Son of God from the prophecies of The Tanakh (Old Testament).

If a person believes this, they cross over from death to life and become a permanent born again child of God.

Where does believing in and trusting on his atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person for the remission of one's sin and reconciliation to God come in?

If a person never believes in Jesus they will die without the free gift of The Life of God and will spend eternity in the lake of fire (which is the second death).
To live with God in the next life on the new earth a person must have God's free gift of Eternal Life. If they do not, the only place they can go, is the place God has prepared for satan which is the lake of fire.

 

[Cerraco]

That means to believe that Jesus is the resurrection and the life, The promised Messiah/Christ Son of God from the prophecies of The Tanakh (Old Testament).

If a person believes this, they cross over from death to life and become a permanent born again child of God.

If a person never believes in Jesus they will die without the free gift of The Life of God and will spend eternity in the lake of fire (which is the second death).

So someone was born in another part of the world and wasn't taught to follow Jesus is gonna suffer forever. Oh good, that's very fair and promising. If this is true, I'd sure hate to be someone living in a third-world country that hasn't heard that much about Jesus, and then suffers forever just because "they didn't believe". If someone is Jewish, why not just show them the truth when they die? Why does everyone need to be thrown into hell because they think differently?

No wonder I never became a Christian. That's so awful I can't stand it.

Why focus on her interpretation and view of Christianity as if it's the only one?

Y'know, you don't have to ...

I don't. I couldn't if I tried. She also believes that every single event in the Bible happened, despite it not being compatible with current history and in any sense. I would never send someone to hell just for their beliefs or sexual orientation.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't. I couldn't if I tried. She also believes that every single event in the Bible happened, despite it not being compatible with current history and in any sense. I would never send someone to hell just for their beliefs or sexual orientation.

I think there are enough indicators in the Bible to tell us that God isn't going to simply drop-kick people into Hell like a mindless zombie. For anyone to think as such is to have the hermeneutical aptitude of a zombie. Of course, there will always be those who disagree with me, and they're free to do so. But I can back up my position and if someone wants to argue with me about it all, then I'm going to simply drag in the following sources (among many others) upon commencing to argue:

Fackre, Gabriel J., Ronald H. Nash, and John Sanders, eds. What about those who have never heard?: three views on the destiny of the unevangelized. InterVarsity Press, 1995.​

​

Hick, John. Four views on salvation in a pluralistic world. Zondervan, 1996.​

​

Here's the summary of my view on this: If the Bible doesn't tell us in an exact and comprehensive way as to "how" God will judge on Judgement Day, then why shouln't it be ok for Christians to say "we don't exactly know how it's all going to be metted out in the end"?

What we DO KNOW is that those who end their life in rejection of Christ, knowingly and willingly, will have absolutely no moral recourse by which to deflect God's evaluations. However ... as for those who haven't heard of Christ, then all I CAN say about them, from my personal POV, is that I can only see them as people with a big ? written on their backs. And I think this would be the most accurate (and honest) thing for any Christian to say.

Some theologians hold to the idea of judgment being metted out according to the positive response people have to the amount of light (or truth) that God provides in the lives of each individual person, and that their individual faith response toward God, whether focused clearly on Christ or not, is still a faith response in the God who has provided "the One and Only Christ" by whom any of us will receive grace, mercy, and the "payment" for our sins.

So ... IF ... this is the case, and perhaps it is, more people will "make it" into Eternal Life with Christ than we may otherwise expect to make it.

​

As for the historical-"ness" of the Bible, on your part, I'd recommend you try to give some benefit of the doubt to the historical contents of the Bible. Sure, it's not a modern day history book. But nevertheless, just because atheists and skeptical scholars galore think they've got the last word on the bible's significance, the truth is, THEY DON'T and THEY NEVER WILL. In fact, no one human being does. And yes, I say this as a sassy, know-it-all philosopher. That's my job!

 

[d taylor]

So someone was born in another part of the world and wasn't taught to follow Jesus is gonna suffer forever. Oh good, that's very fair and promising. If this is true, I'd sure hate to be someone living in a third-world country that hasn't heard that much about Jesus, and then suffers forever just because "they didn't believe". If someone is Jewish, why not just show them the truth when they die? Why does everyone need to be thrown into hell because they think differently?

No wonder I never became a Christian. That's so awful I can't stand it.

I don't. I couldn't if I tried. She also believes that every single event in the Bible happened, despite it not being compatible with current history and in any sense. I would never send someone to hell just for their beliefs or sexual orientation.

It is interesting how you read into what i wrote, your own beliefs. I never said anything about following Jesus. No one receives God's free gift of Eternal Life by following Jesus. Again it only by belief in Jesus, that The Life of God is received.

As for people never hearing, I believe that is a over used excuse.

 

[Clare73]

I think there are enough indicators in the Bible to tell us that God isn't going to simply drop-kick people into Hell like a mindless zombie. For anyone to think as such is to have the hermeneutical aptitude of a zombie. Of course, there will always be those who disagree with me, and they're free to do so. But I can back up my position and if someone wants to argue with me about it all, then I'm going to simply drag in the following sources (among many others) upon commencing to argue:

Fackre, Gabriel J., Ronald H. Nash, and John Sanders, eds. What about those who have never heard?: three views on the destiny of the unevangelized. InterVarsity Press, 1995.​

​

Hick, John. Four views on salvation in a pluralistic world. Zondervan, 1996.​

Here's the summary of my view on this: If the Bible doesn't tell us in an exact and comprehensive way as to "how" God will judge on Judgement Day, then why would shouln't it be ok for Christians to say "we don't exactly know how it's all going to be metted out in the end"?

What about Jn 3:18, 36 and Ro 1:18-2:16 with its verdict in Ro 3:20?

What we DO KNOW is that those who end their life in rejection of Christ, knowingly and willingly, will have absolutely no moral recourse by which to deflect God's evaluations. However ... as for those who haven't heard of Christ, then all I CAN say about them, from my personal POV, is that I can only see them as people with a big ? written on their backs. And I think this would be the most accurate (and honest) thing for any Christian to say.
Some theologians hold to the idea of judgement being metted out according to the positive response people have to the amount of light (or truth) that God provides in the lives of each individual person, and that their individual faith response toward God, whether focused clearly on Christ or not, is still a faith response in the God who has provided "the One and Only Christ" by whom any of us will receive grace, mercy, and the "payment" for our sins.

So ... IF ... this is the case, and perhaps it is, then we might think that more people will "make it" into Eternal Life with Christ than we might otherwise expect will make it.

​

As for the historical-"ness" of the Bible, on your part, I'd recommend you try to give some benefit of the doubt to the historical contents of the Bible. Sure, it's not a modern day history book. But nevertheless, just because atheists and skeptical scholars galore think they've got the last word on the bible's significance, the truth is, THEY DON'T and THEY NEVER WILL. In fact, no one human being does. And yes, I say this as a sassy, know-it-all philosopher. That's my job!

 

[Cerraco]

It is interesting how you read into what i wrote, your own beliefs. I never said anything about following Jesus. No one receives God's free gift of Eternal Life by following Jesus. Again it only by belief in Jesus, that The Life of God is received.

That's what I meant. I was not able to change my post due to how editing here works. That's still kind of awful. Which I'll get into in my response to the next quote.

As for people never hearing, I believe that is a over used excuse.

Overused or not, those people exist. Maybe not a lot of them, but they're out there. What about say... the Sentinelese? Those people are still in the stone age on a remote island. What happens to them? Do they still go to hell just because they didn't believe (or even know)? What about the Jewish who don't believe in Jesus?

As for the historical-"ness" of the Bible, on your part, I'd recommend you try to give some benefit of the doubt to the historical contents of the Bible. Sure, it's not a modern day history book. But nevertheless, just because atheists and skeptical scholars galore think they've got the last word on the bible's significance, the truth is, THEY DON'T and THEY NEVER WILL. In fact, no one human being does. And yes, I say this as a sassy, know-it-all philosopher. That's my job!

I think there are some moments of the Bible that actually happened, with some being fiction, but still having some sort of symbolic teaching behind it.

Let me give this example: Person A is a nasty person, he cheats, lies, steals, sleeps around, etc. He constantly beats his wife and kids, but at age 60. He repents, believes in the Lord, and doesn't sin - or sin that much, nothing serious. He dies at age 70. Does he get into heaven?

Now, let's look at Person B. He's Jewish, and serves the Lord by helping the poor whenever he can. He doesn't believe in Christ, but he's one of the good guys. He also dies at age 70. Does he still go to straight to hell? If so, that doesn't seem very fair. He's also creating people, knowing what they will do beforehand, because God knows all, right? Not finding a lot of sense in this.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think there are some moments of the Bible that actually happened, with some being fiction, but still having some sort of symbolic teaching behind it.

Let me give this example: Person A is a nasty person, he cheats, lies, steals, sleeps around, etc. He constantly beats his wife and kids, but at age 60. He repents, believes in the Lord, and doesn't sin - or sin that much, nothing serious. He dies at age 70. Does he get into heaven?

Ok. So, who is this "Person A" guy? (I'm asking because I'm ONLY interested in discussing real, live cases, not scanty, contextualess hypotheticals that rarely ever reflect reality or literally take place).

However, we could talk about Saul of Tarsus. He considered himself to be a former murderer of who knows how many victims before Christ intercepted him on the road to Damascus.

Now, let's look at Person B. He's Jewish, and serves the Lord by helping the poor whenever he can. He doesn't believe in Christ, but he's one of the good guys. He also dies at age 70. Does he still go to straight to hell?

You're asking the wrong person here, Cerraco. I'm a philosopher. I'm also educated. I'm not going to met out judgments as if they can be strung easily together and pushed out like McDonald's cheeseburgers. Moreover, there's a lot of Axiological qualifications that go into anyone's definition of "good guy." So, keep that in mind. "Good" is not an iron-clad, clearly discernible quality on a moral scale. Sure, we can all intuit what we each deems to qualify as "moral good," but that wouldn't mean we've made a real or accurate qualification about some one person's character as we think it is.

I am confident that unrepentant and thoroughly evil people of all kinds who perpetuately victimize other persons will, upon death, be given a golden ticket, but it won't be for a visit to Willy Wonka's Chocolate Factory.

If so, that doesn't seem very fair. He's also creating people, knowing what they will do beforehand, because God knows all, right? Not finding a lot of sense in this.

The only thing we can feel confident of is that both Person A and Person B will have to stand before the Lord, just like the rest of us will. That's it. No more. No less. We should each be more concerned about ourselves and our future with Jesus the Lord.

And I know one thing, though, I'm not going to make decisions about the future or about the possible truth of Christianity based on hypotheticals. That's just not how the game of Bible Jeopardy is played.

 

[Cerraco]

Ok. So, who is this "Person A" guy? (I'm asking because I'm ONLY interested in discussing real, live cases, not scanty, contextualess hypotheticals that rarely ever reflect reality or literally take place).

...

And I know one thing, though, I'm not going to make decisions about the future or about the possible truth of Christianity based on hypotheticals. That's just not how the game of Bible Jeopardy is played.

There are plenty of atheists out there who have done plenty of good for the world, but would still burn forever because "oop, you didn't believe in Christ!" I'd like to think God would handle that a bit better.

 

[d taylor]

That's what I meant. I was not able to change my post due to how editing here works. That's still kind of awful. Which I'll get into in my response to the next quote.

Overused or not, those people exist. Maybe not a lot of them, but they're out there. What about say... the Sentinelese? Those people are still in the stone age on a remote island. What happens to them? Do they still go to hell just because they didn't believe (or even know)? What about the Jewish who don't believe in Jesus?

If a person who has lived and truly never heard about Jesus. They may fall into the category of say one who was born and did not have the mental capacity to understand about God, Jesus and receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life. So basically this may fall into the same category as the age of accountability

The Rapture and the Age of Accountability – Grace Evangelical Society

That is they may be resurrected to live during the 1000 year millennium rule of Jesus and be given the opportunity to believe in Jesus. But as seen in Revelation multitudes of people do not believe in Jesus during the 1000 year millennium rule and team up with satan when satan is released from his prison.

I personally believe every person born will be given the chance to either believe or to not believe in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. So someone like you this is your chance now, as you know about Jesus and God. But the question remains will or will you not believe.

 

[Cerraco]

I personally believe every person born will be given the chance to either believe or to not believe in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. So someone like you this is your chance now, as you know about Jesus and God. But the question remains will or will you not believe.

You Christians man... you absolutely know how to keep things interesting. And no, that isn't an insult.

Regardless of my atheism level, I always believed Jesus existed, was a good teacher, and suffered the way it was explained. I even love the guy, so yes, I believe in Jesus either way. I mean, I kind of have to anyway, because I suffer for eternity if I don't. Do I believe God exists? Uhhhhhhh... yeah... I don't know if I'm quite there yet.

It still seems a bit disgusting that every single person who doesn't believe in someone who lived 2000 years ago, and was mentioned in a book that isn't the most historically accurate book ever made, is gonna suffer in the same place where murderers and whatnot should go. Why does God have to be so black or white with his choices? Why not show a Jewish person/atheist/whatever what he doesn't understand instead of just going "you didn't believe, suffer forever."

Yeah, that doesn't sound like the most all-loving and understanding God.

 

[d taylor]

You Christians man... you absolutely know how to keep things interesting. And no, that isn't an insult.

Regardless of my atheism level, I always believed Jesus existed, was a good teacher, and suffered the way it was explained. I even love the guy, so yes, I believe in Jesus either way. I mean, I kind of have to anyway, because I suffer for eternity if I don't. Do I believe God exists? Uhhhhhhh... yeah... I don't know if I'm quite there yet.

It still seems a bit disgusting that every single person who doesn't believe in someone who lived 2000 years ago, and was mentioned in a book that isn't the most historically accurate book ever made, is gonna suffer in the same place where murderers and whatnot should go. Why does God have to be so black or white with his choices? Why not show a Jewish person/atheist/whatever what he doesn't understand instead of just going "you didn't believe, suffer forever."

Yeah, that doesn't sound like the most all-loving and understanding God.

The believing in Jesus that gives a person Eternal Life, is to believe that Jesus is the resurrection and the life. That He Jesus is the promised Messiah/Christ from the prophecies of The Tanakh, The only begotten Son of God (God came to earth, took on human flesh)

Believing Jesus existed and was a good teacher, suffered, loving the person, accounts for nothing.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

There are plenty of atheists out there who have done plenty of good for the world, but would still burn forever because "oop, you didn't believe in Christ!" I'd like to think God would handle that a bit better.

But what does this have to do with your specific Person A and Person B hypotheticals? Your response here is a hed-herring and you're not addressing the rejoinder that I put back into your court, mainly that none of us really knows what "good" is. But here you are, inferring that Person C is "good," with the assumption inferred that some person is "good" because you say he is. ... unfortunately, moral reality doesn't quite line up like that despite what people on EITHER the Left or the Right of today's political and ideological divide insist that it "must."

However, even with the above in mind, are you wanting to actually discuss the fate of modern atheists? Or even of ex-christians?

As for God handling "it better," I'm confident that the Lord will handle it very, very, very .......... very well; He'll do much better in the Final Judgment than either you or the typical fundamenalist Christian thinks He will. So, don't worry about that.

I'm pretty sure that if the God of the Bible exists, He's more than up to date on the latest findings in neuroscience, abnormal psychology, social psychology and human pathology and will take the entirety of a person's existence, capabilities, social capital, social acculturation, mind states and overall dysfunctions into account when He looks within each one of us ... and will apply His Grace, Love and Insight accordingly.

 

[Cerraco]

I also found it interesting you keep listening to the mainstream Christians whose theology you dislike so much.

Because some of it just doesn't add up to me.

But what does this have to do with your specific Person A and Person B hypotheticals? Your response here is a hed-herring and you're not addressing the rejoinder that I put back into your court, mainly that none of us really knows what "good" is. But here you are, inferring that Person C is "good," with the assumption inferred that some person is "good" because you say he is. ... unfortunately, moral reality doesn't quite line up like that despite what people on EITHER the Left or the Right of today's political and ideological divide insist that it "must."

However, even with the above in mind, are you wanting to actually discuss the fate of modern atheists? Or even of ex-christians?

My point is, there's a lot of variables in the world. The woman I'm talking to believes you have to follow the Bible down to the exact letter. Here's the problem, that book talks of historical events that could not have happened. Some people think that if you accept Christ, you can do what you want, and just get a free ticket to paradise. Guess those religious murderers and abusers are getting a free ride. Yeah, I'll never believe that.

I don't know if this helps, but let's say Person B and C actually followed the Bible. They didn't sin that much, they helped the poor in secret, all that stuff. Seems real nasty to let someone burn forever just because they didn't believe in Christ, especially if they were raised a certain way.

The believing in Jesus that gives a person Eternal Life, is to believe that Jesus is the resurrection and the life. That He Jesus is the promised Messiah/Christ from the prophecies of The Tanakh, The only begotten Son of God (God came to earth, took on human flesh)

Believing Jesus existed and was a good teacher, suffered, loving the person, accounts for nothing.

Okay cool, then I'll just place all of that in my head so I don't suffer for eternity.

Since God knows what's gonna happen before it happens, he's creating some people he knows won't believe in Christ, so they're doomed from the start. Hate to be those people... d taylor, this stuff is just rolling right off your tongue in pure confidence. I don't know if you see the potential issue here.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

My point is, there's a lot of variables in the world.

Yes. I definitely agree with you about that. Reality is both complex and in many ways complicated, not the saccharine, sugar-frosted simplicity that some attempt to impose upon the meaning of it all.

The woman I'm talking to believes you have to follow the Bible down to the exact letter. Here's the problem, that book talks of historical events that could not have happened.

I also understand that a rigid, systemitized form of Christianity Theology is highly problematic. However, that isn't to say that we all know with historical certainity that important "events" depicted in the Bible could not have happened.

Since you're inviting questions here by your statements, I'm going to ask: Which events exactly, other than those questionable ones in the first eleven chapters of Genesis, do you think "could not have happened?"

Some people think that if you accept Christ, you can do what you want, and just get a free ticket to paradise.

To think that would be absurd, and not just because I offer my ethical evaluation about "doing what you want" as a philosopher, but because I'm sure a full reading of the Bible doesn't reflect (nor permit) that conclusion.

No one just gets a free ticket to paradise.

Guess those religious murderers and abusers are getting a free ride. Yeah, I'll never believe that.

I've already addressed that. You're response doesn't sound like you've actually engaged, read and understood all of what I've said in previous posts.

So, do you think Paul the Apostle should be in Hell? If so, which Ethical Framework are you subscribing to? There more than one. In fact, for those who study Ethics, we know there nearly a dozen competing frameworks. Which one "should" all of us accept and adhere to?

I don't know if this helps, but let's say Person B and C actually followed the Bible. They didn't sin that much, they helped the poor in secret, all that stuff. Seems real nasty to let someone burn forever just because they didn't believe in Christ, especially if they were raised a certain way.

I also addressed that earlier. You seem to not be engaging the details of the various complex points I've made. Until you're ready to engage, you're persistence in ignoring what I'm saying just sabotages my attempt to communicate with you.