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Misquoted creationist misquotes

Originally posted by randman

Are we to think there was no selective pressure for sometimes as much as 2 million years?

Nah, it's been much longer than that. Some creatures have remained essentially unchanged since their first appearance in the fossil record. Heck, they've remained apparently unchanged even through all those cataclysmic puntuations in punk eek.

Of course, the reason for that kind of stasis may have nothing to do with selective pressure. Maybe their genes just didn't feel like mutating. Or maybe these same creatures have gone extinct and re-evolved millions of times again and again from that simple life form, each time leaving no historical record of their evolution.

That's the cool thing about evolution. If you encounter a problem, just make up any explanation you want and repeat it until enough people believe it, or you've sold enough books to retire.

Originally posted by Jerry Smith

No, there are no fossils that show that Archaeopteryx was ancestral to later bird forms. Its line may very well have died out.

It's worse than that, Jerry. Even evolutionists now admit Archaeopteryx was preceded by more developed birds (Protoavis) by (supposedly) 75 million years.

So much for Archy linking dinosaurs and birds. Yet another "proof" of evolution slithers down the drain.
 
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Originally posted by npetreley


Nah, it's been much longer than that. Some creatures have remained essentially unchanged since their first appearance in the fossil record. Heck, they've remained apparently unchanged even through all those cataclysmic puntuations in punk eek.


I call. List three or four of the best known species that have remained apparently unchanged for at least 10 million years. Lets discuss them. Lets see if they are the exceptions or the rule, and if it turns out they are the exception, lets see if we can figure out a reason why.....

After all, if some orgnanisms change significantly over 10 million years, and others do not, an explanation is needed right? Or do we just take that opportunity to throw out 100 years of research and get a pat on the back from Brother Gish?

That's the cool thing about evolution. If you encounter a problem, just make up any explanation you want and repeat it until enough people believe it, or you've sold enough books to retire.

Sure yeah. I think the people around here have heard enough of your bluster. Maybe when you have listed five organisms that have not shown apparent change over the last 10 million years, and maybe after we have discussed them, maybe, just maybe, the people reading this board will have the intelligence to figure out for themselves how evolution science addresses its "problems," and maybe then, we won't need to get the answer by listening to your sermon.



It's worse than that, Jerry. Even evolutionists now admit Archaeopteryx was preceded by more developed birds (Protoavis) by (supposedly) 75 million years.

Where have you been? Did you not read the transitional fossils thread?? That's nothing new, and if you think it is a problem for evolution, you need to go back and tell your biology teacher that he or she did a horrible job teaching you the basics of evolution. Or maybe you can apologize to them for not paying attention in class.

So much for Archy linking dinosaurs and birds. Yet another "proof" of evolution slithers down the drain.

So Archae dosn't have a reptilian head, a therapod wishbone, three unfused fingers, a reptilian tail, teeth, etc??? Weird, can you give references for this claim? Or are you just blowing smoke because other birds like Protoavis are older than Archae?
 
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Originally posted by randman
Try answering the fact of stasis and how evolutionary theory did not predict it.

Let me repeat what Darwin said:

But I must here remark that I do not suppose that the process ever goes on so regularly...nor that it goes on continuously; it is far more probable that each form reamins for long periods unaltered, and then again undergoes modification.

Your claim, randman, is plainly false.
 
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Originally posted by randman

Try answering the fact of stasis and how evolutionary theory did not predict it.

Originally posted by LiveFreeOrDie

Let me repeat what Darwin said:
But I must here remark that I do not suppose that the process ever goes on so regularly...nor that it goes on continuously; it is far more probable that each form reamins for long periods unaltered, and then again undergoes modification.

Your claim, randman, is plainly false.

This is rich beyond measure. Let's look again at what Darwin says...

But I must here remark that I do not suppose...it is far more probable...

Wow. Darwin doesn't suppose it. Darwin thinks it is far more probable that something else occurs. Therefore it's factually false to assume otherwise.

All bow down and worship Darwin, who deserves honor and glory and power.

That's your scientific mind for you.
 
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Originally posted by npetreley




Your claim, randman, is plainly false.
This is rich beyond measure. Let's look again at what Darwin says...



Wow. Darwin doesn't suppose it. Darwin thinks it is far more probable that something else occurs. Therefore it's factually false to assume otherwise.

All bow down and worship Darwin, who deserves honor and glory and power.

That's your scientific mind for you.

Nick, are you pretending not to notice that Darwin did predict examples of stasis with that statement? Are you pretending this so that you can distract attention from the fact that this statement of Darwin's directly disputes randman's claim?
 
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Morat

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npetreley:
I call. List three or four of the best known species that have remained apparently unchanged for at least 10 million years. Lets discuss them. Lets see if they are the exceptions or the rule, and if it turns out they are the exception, lets see if we can figure out a reason why.....

I look forward to seeing your list. I find one beneficial side effect to these arguments is increasing the amount of knowledge I possess.

I would absolutely love to see a discussion on this topic.

Here's hoping you dig up enough examples quickly.
 
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Originally posted by Jerry Smith

I call. List three or four of the best known species that have remained apparently unchanged for at least 10 million years. Lets discuss them. Lets see if they are the exceptions or the rule, and if it turns out they are the exception, lets see if we can figure out a reason why.....

Your imagination is showing. You're clearly saying, "If you present any evidence that contradicts my conclusions, I'm going to figure out why they must be exceptions so that I can stick with my conclusion and ignore your evidence."

There are tons of creatures that would qualify, but since you asked for 3 over 10 million years, I picked some good ones. If you know your stuff, you'll know why these are such ironic examples:

1. Coelacanths (360-400 million years)

2. Horseshoe crab (250 million years)

3. Cyanobacteria (over 3 billion years)
 
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Originally posted by Jerry Smith


Nick, are you pretending not to notice that Darwin did predict examples of stasis with that statement? Are you pretending this so that you can distract attention from the fact that this statement of Darwin's directly disputes randman's claim?

ROFL!!!! PREDICT IT?!?! The fossil evidence of stasis was already there!

Hey - I predict that former president Kennedy was assassinated. Since my prediction is accurate, everything else I say must also be true.
 
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Originally posted by npetreley


ROFL!!!! PREDICT IT?!?! The fossil evidence of stasis was already there!

Hey - I predict that former president Kennedy was assassinated. Since my prediction is accurate, everything else I say must also be true.

So you are off of Randman's "evolution DIDN'T predict stasis" bandwagon then? How many fossils (uh.. total) had been unearthed by the time Darwin published, by the way?

Darwin's statement isn't a true strong prediction in the scientific sense though: it was a qualification of his strong prediciton. The strong prediction was change enough to account for the diversity of life, some of which would be found in the fossil record. The qualification was that there would also be stasis found in the fossil record. Now, regardless of what specimens had been catalogued by the time he published, how did Darwin know that in the future every fossil find would confirm his strong prediction of divergence from similar forms? How did he know this?

Please explain.
 
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randman

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"Randman, PE was the application of modern views of evolution to paleontology, not the other way arround. Because of this misconception, your entire above paragraph is seriously flawed."

I've heard you say that, and basically only you. TalkOrigins doesn't state that, nor does the literature itself. Nor was Punctuated Equilibrium applied mainly to paleontology, but the other way around. if Eldridge claimed that years later, he didn't sound that way when he came out with it.

Moreover, it just doesn't make sense. Paleontologists already accepted evolution for the most part. Why would he need to advocate PE to sell it to them when they already accepted it? You are pretending that PE advocates nothing new for biology.
 
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randman

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That's the key point. It was considered by some an "important model." To state it was merely for paleontologists to get a better understanding of evolution is stating that it isn't a new model at all.

Perhaps what Eldridge was trying to say was that they had to come up with it since paleontologists new the actual data in the fossil record and needed some convincing to keep them in the fold, but hey guys, don't worry about it. I have a hard time believing he is that insincere, but that is at least plausible. Stating it isn't a new model incorporating data on the fossil record is just a bunch of BS.
 
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When I suggested that "others" knew better why Gould saw P.E. as important, I didn't mean you... sorry. I thought maybe someone who had a substantial understanding of the theory.

How important is it? Not important enough to have gained universal acceptance... that much we know.
 
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Originally posted by randman
The fact is contrary to what one poster here claims, PE was put forth to take into account the facts of the fossil record, namely "stasis" and "sudden appearance."

You would think evolutionists would jump all over it then, since an additional explanations are necessary. Why do you think it took nearly twenty years for P.E. to gain even modest acceptance?
 
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Morat

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1. Coelacanths (360-400 million years)
Which Coelacanths? They're an entire Order.
The Coelacanth ("lobe finned") order appeared 410 million years ago, and there have been hundreds of species in this order. However, the whole order vanished from the fossil record about the time the Dinosaurs vanished, 65 million years ago. Everyone thought they were history.

In 1937, a live one was caught by a fisherman. It was a different species (and different genus and different family) from any fossil Coelacanth: it has been named Latimeria chalumnae. In 1998, Latimeria menadoensis was found far away in Indonesia. As the names suggest, these are two different species, but both are in the same genus. In 2000 a third colony was found off South Africa, but the exact species is not yet known.

So, it's not exactly like there's been no change. You're welcome to find a fossil Coelacanth of genus Latimeria...or even the family Latimeria fits into. :)

2. Horseshoe crab (250 million years)

Here is a nice thumbnail of Horseshoe Crab evolution:
The main trends in the evolution of the xiphosurans have been an overall increase in size, a loss of segmentation on the opisthosoma, and a restriction to marine habitats. Whereas all living xiphosurans are marine, it seems that some late Paleozoic and Mesozoic forms inhabited brackish or even fresh water.

So it's not that static, is it?
 
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randman

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"Why do you think it took nearly twenty years for P.E. to gain even modest acceptance?"

Because evolutionists that were not paleontologists were terribly ignorant about the fossil record, having been misled by their own propoganda.

Take a close look at the following quote, and notice how at this particular conference, most were simply unaware of what the fossil record actually contained.

"The absence of transitional forms between established species has traditionally been explained as a fault of an imperfect record, an argument first advanced by Charles Darwin. The accumulation of sediments and the entrapment and fossilization of animal bones is, at best, a capricious process: as a result, geologists are familiar with the difficulties of reconstructing past events. According to the traditional position, therefore, if sedimentation and fossilization did indeed encapsulate a complete record of prehistory, then it would reveal the postulated transitional organisms. But it isn't and it doesn't.

This ancient lament was intoned by some at the Chicago meeting: "I take a dim view of the fossil record as a source of data," observed Everett Olson, the paleontologist from UCLA. But such views were challenged as being defeatest [sic]. "I'm tired of hearing about the imperfections of the fossil record," said John Sepkoski of the University of Chicago; "I'm more interested in hearing about the imperfections of our questions about the record." "The record is not so woefully incomplete," offered Steven Stanley of Johns Hopkins University; "you can reconstruct long sections by combining data from several areas." Olson confessed himself to be "cheered by such optimism about the fossil record," and he listened receptively to Gould's suggestion that the gaps in the record are more real than apparent. "Certainly the record is poor," admitted Gould, "but the jerkiness you see is not the result of gaps, it is the consequence of the jerky mode of evolutionary change."

To the evident frustration of many people at the meeting, a large proportion of the contributions were characterized more by description and assertion than by the presentation of data. Nowhere was this a greater source of irritation than over the issue of stasis. Not until an unscheduled speaker - Anthony Hallam of Birmingham University, England - came forward with a blackboard sketch of the paleontological history of Jurassic bivalves did many people begin to be convinced of the importance of stasis. Hallam's intervention was much appreciated. However, there were still some reservations: "That's all very well for marine invertebrates," challenged a skeptical voice, "but what about land animals?" "I can show you many good examples of stasis in terrestrial mammals," offered Elizabeth Vrba of the Transvaal Museum, Pretoria.

Thus went the verbal jostling, with the mood swinging perceptibly in favor of recognizing stasis as being a real phenomenon. Gabriel Dover, a geneticist from Cambridge University, England, felt strongly enough to call species stasis "The single most important feature of macroevolution." [See following note.] In a generous admission Francisco Ayala, a major figure in propounding the Modern Synthesis in the United States, said: "We would not have predicted stasis from population genetics, but I am now convinced from what the paleontologists say that small changes do not accumulate." [Note: Dr. Ayala denies that he said this. Please see the letter reproduced below from Richard Arrowsmith and Dr. Ayala.]"

http://www.theistic-evolution.com/lewin.html

Regardless of the one particular person's retraction/denial or mistake by the writer, one thing is clear. Stasis is argued by PE advocates and demonstrated by paleontologists, and most of the rest have a hard time accepting this data, but eventually most concede the fatcs do indeed show stasis as a real phenonmenon. Why did they have a hard time accepting stasis?

I think it is because they never really objectively examined the fossil record.
 
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Originally posted by randman
Rufus: Randman, PE was the application of modern views of evolution to paleontology, not the other way arround. Because of this misconception, your entire above paragraph is seriously flawed.

Randman: I've heard you say that, and basically only you.

Don't forget Niles Eldridge, who coauthored the original paper on punctuated equilibrium. He's the one who told me the reasons why the original paper was written. I am pretty sure that there is no more authority on the authors' modivation than an author himself.

TalkOrigins doesn't state that, nor does the literature itself. Nor was Punctuated Equilibrium applied mainly to paleontology, but the other way around. if Eldridge claimed that years later, he didn't sound that way when he came out with it.

Another popular misconception about PE. Read the actual papers and literature. Gould and Eldridge showed why the nature of the fossil record was stocatic not because it was incomplete, but because that's what we should expect if we take into account population level effects, like those put forth by biologist Ernst Mayr.

Moreover, it just doesn't make sense. Paleontologists already accepted evolution for the most part. Why would he need to advocate PE to sell it to them when they already accepted it? You are pretending that PE advocates nothing new for biology.

Actually, it makes perfect sense if you understand both biology and paleontology. Gould and Eldridge didn't put forth PE because paleontologists didn't know about evolution, they did it because paleontologists didn't care much about the details. Most of paleontology is concerned with fossil hunting and resolving relationships between taxa. It doesn't involve looking at the big picture of evolutionary mechanisms.

Before Gould and Eldridge came along, paleontolgists explained the choppy nature of the fossil record by saying it was incomplete. In other words, they haven't found enough fossils to increase the resolution. The point of PE is not to say what the fossil record looks like but why. According to PE, the nature of the fossil record is not due to its incompleteness, but the mechanisms of sampling and population evolution. This is the primary claim of PE and is accepted by the scientific community. The minor claim of PE is universal statis, which gets all the press and is still in contention.
 
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randman

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"Don't forget Niles Eldridge, who coauthored the original paper on punctuated equilibrium. He's the one who told me the reasons why the original paper was written. I am pretty sure that there is no more authority on the authors' modivation than an author himself."

Well, God told me personally He created the world. I would place his integrity and honesty above Eldridge's anyday.

"Another popular misconception about PE. Read the actual papers and literature. Gould and Eldridge showed why the nature of the fossil record was stocatic not because it was incomplete, but because that's what we should expect if we take into account population level effects, like those put forth by biologist Ernst Mayr"

Rufos, where did you go to school. Think about what you are saying. There is no popular misconception about PE. As you admit right here, PE is an application of data from the fossil record to fit into an evolutionary model. Try to think. The model is man's interpretation. The fossils are not. It doesn't matter who comes up with the model. I think Gould certainly argues that he and Eldridge came up with it, but who cares. The fact is the data to suport the model is the fossil record, not the other way around.

Maybe it is because evolutionists misuse interpretation as data so much that you are unable to distinquish, and maybe Eldridge too, that the data here are the fossils, and that this is applying the data of the fossils to evolutionary theory, not the other way around since theory is not data.

Understand, or no?
 
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