Misogyny is disgusting

[OldWiseGuy]

Except that's making an hyperbolic example to somehow suggest all women want to do that rather than just break out of antiquated stereotypes

I think they just want equal pay...for now. If they remain in those antiquated stereotypes it's by their own choice (some may even like it). It seems to me that the radical feminist movement is attempting to push all women into roles that they don't necessarily want.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You seem to be ignoring the evidence.

I posted the evidence.

Calculus I factors women out of STEM degrees

A woman's place is wherever she decides it is.

You should take a closer look at those decisions. I don't think many women are applying for tree trimming jobs. I wouldn't even want to see a woman doing "ground man" work.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Why not? Its not your place to decide! Also what is wrong with women working in abattoirs?? Women can work wherever they want to..

They can only work if they are hired.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I guess that you never met my aunt Rita?
The variation in muscle mass between men is far greater than the difference between the average man and the average woman.

There are such women, but not very many.

 

[essentialsaltes]

I wouldn't like to see a woman do any of the jobs I've had. It would be defeminizing.

Women don't have to choose their occupations based on what you'd like to see.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Women don't have to choose their occupations based on what you'd like to see.

Happily for all they don't. Of course they are free to apply.

 

[JackRT]

Women don't have to choose their occupations based on what you'd like to see.

Just about the only thing that a man can do that a woman can't is to pee their name in the snow.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Just about the only thing that a man can do that a woman can't is to pee their name in the snow.

Wait just a minute.

The girl's mother was upset because her daughter's boyfriend had peed "Josh loves Cindy" in the snow outside of the house. The husband assured her that many boys did this and not to make too much of it. But she replied tearfully, "It was in Cindy's handwriting."

 

[essentialsaltes]

I posted the evidence.

Did you read what you posted? "The findings suggest that a major factor in women's decision to leave a STEM path after Calculus I isn't ability, but confidence in their ability".

Maybe if people in society didn't go around blithely undermining women's confidence in their math abilities, things would be different.

 

[JackRT]

Wait just a minute.

The girl's mother was upset because her daughter's boyfriend had peed "Josh loves Cindy" in the snow outside of the house. The husband assured her that many boys did this and not to make too much of it. But she replied tearfully, "It was in Cindy's handwriting."

Dang you! I just about blew a mouthful of coffee all over the keyboard.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Did you read what you posted? "The findings suggest that a major factor in women's decision to leave a STEM path after Calculus I isn't ability, but confidence in their ability".

Of course I read it.

Maybe if people in society didn't go around blithely undermining women's confidence in their math abilities, things would be different.

The answer to the problem of confidence is to separate the classes by gender. It is the presence of a majority of men in the course that affects the women's confidence. The instructor for the women should also be a women. I suggested this months ago when this topic first came up, trusting that my idea would make it into academia and thus solve the problem (this is the scientific method).

 

[JackRT]

Of course I read it.



The answer to the problem of confidence is to separate the classes by gender. It is the presence of a majority of men in the course that affects the women's confidence. The instructor for the women should also be a women. I suggested this months ago when this topic first came up, trusting that my idea would make it into academia and thus solve the problem.

This has been suggested in the past but I am not aware of any major attempt to implement it. Maybe there are insufficient female math teachers to do it on a large scale at the moment.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The biggest problem I have as a woman today is neither feminism nor subservience, but cultural expectations around what I "should" do which are often entirely unrealistic.

I don't think women know what they want, until they know what they can have.

 

[Paidiske]

I wouldn't hire a woman to do tree trimming work (maybe for office work though). Women's opportunities are affected by the requirements of the job.

You wouldn't hire her.... which just says you're willing to illegally discriminate. It doesn't mean she can't meet the requirements of the job.

You seem to have it all together, or are you advocating for others?

A bit of both. Even with my life as it is, I still encounter problems with unrealistic expectations (for example, I was just talking yesterday with my husband about the clash of expectations around Christmas; that people expected me to do everything their male ministers used to do, and everything those ministers' wives used to do. But one person can only do so much!)

The answer to the problem of confidence is to separate the classes by gender. It is the presence of a majority of men in the course that affects the women's confidence. The instructor for the women should also be a women. I suggested this months ago when this topic first came up, trusting that my idea would make it into academia and thus solve the problem (this is the scientific method).

There's some evidence that this is helpful in high school, but I feel that by the time we're all adult, we ought to be equipping women to excel anyway; and equipping men not to undermine their female colleagues.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You wouldn't hire her.... which just says you're willing to illegally discriminate. It doesn't mean she can't meet the requirements of the job.

If no one else applied I'd hire a woman, but I wouldn't let her climb trees. She can drag and chip brush.

A bit of both. Even with my life as it is, I still encounter problems with unrealistic expectations (for example, I was just talking yesterday with my husband about the clash of expectations around Christmas; that people expected me to do everything their male ministers used to do, and everything those ministers' wives used to do. But one person can only do so much!)

"Work flows to the competent, until they finally submerge." -Author unknown.

There's some evidence that this is helpful in high school, but I feel that by the time we're all adult, we ought to be equipping women to excel anyway; and equipping men not to undermine their female colleagues.

That would require men to stifle their natural confidence. Also many men take on an air of confidence in the presence of women (it is said that women like this). Of course they could adopt a rule: "Confident men are not allowed in Calculus classes if women are present."

 

[PloverWing]

I posted the evidence.

Calculus I factors women out of STEM degrees

I was just about to cite this same paper (and here's the more formal paper it summarizes: Women 1.5 Times More Likely to Leave STEM Pipeline after Calculus Compared to Men: Lack of Mathematical Confidence a Potential Culprit ) as providing evidence against your point, OldWiseGuy. As essentialsaltes observed:

Did you read what you posted? "The findings suggest that a major factor in women's decision to leave a STEM path after Calculus I isn't ability, but confidence in their ability".

Self-confidence is a big factor, and that's not a difference in mathematical ability, but rather in how one sees one's self. Consider the student who takes Calculus I and gets a B or a C. One student looks at that and says "Yeah, I guess I'm not good at math after all. I made As in high school, but I'm not smart enough for college math." Another student with the same grade says "Well, good, I passed that class; on to Calc II!" That's not a difference in their mathematical aptitudes.

It's something I'm especially aware of, because I'm a computer science professor, and I watch for those students who are in the process of deciding they're no good at math or computer science because they're making Bs.

The answer to the problem of confidence is to separate the classes by gender. It is the presence of a majority of men in the course that affects the women's confidence. The instructor for the women should also be a women. I suggested this months ago when this topic first came up, trusting that my idea would make it into academia and thus solve the problem (this is the scientific method).

There are multiple approaches people are trying, with different degrees of success, and they are indeed being published in academic journals and conferences.

Some women do thrive in single-sex educational environments. I think that's one reason why it's important for women's colleges like Smith and Bryn Mawr to continue to exist, even though I wouldn't have chosen a women's college for myself. The absence of masculine bluster helps some women to feel more confident about themselves, as you note.

It seems also to be possible to made coed environments that encourage women to thrive in mathematical fields; Harvey Mudd is a well-known example, but there are others. The approach seems to be a mix of factors, aimed toward countering women's perceptions that they aren't welcome. Again, it's not at all about dumbing down math; but rather about making mathematical communities a place where women feel like they could belong, emotionally and socially.

I'll agree with you, OldWiseGuy, that representation in the faculty matters. If students can see female faces amongst their professors, it communicates -- to both female and male students -- that mathematics is a place where women belong.

 

[Kylie]

I don't think many women would want these jobs. But you can ask around.

Plenty of men wouldn't want them either.

 

[Kylie]

I posted the evidence.

Calculus I factors women out of STEM degrees

Did you miss the bit where it says, "The problem, says co-author Bailey Fosdick, an assistant professor of statistics, is that women arrive with lower math confidence to begin with. "When women are leaving, it is because they don't think they can do it" -- not because they can't do it -- she says."

Which fits perfectly with what I have been saying - that women are told that the hard sciences, math, etc are not for them. Women start this having faced their whole lives being told that they shouldn't be doing it.

You should take a closer look at those decisions. I don't think many women are applying for tree trimming jobs. I wouldn't even want to see a woman doing "ground man" work.

And is this because of some inherent lack of ability to do the work, or because women are told that they should leave the physical work to the men? Just another example of gender biases, not inability on the part of the women.

 

[Kylie]

They can only work if they are hired.

Way to miss the point. And way to quibble over the wording and meaning (as I've found is often the case when someone knows their argument is invalid).

A woman capacity to do a job is not limited by her genitals.

 

[Kylie]

Just about the only thing that a man can do that a woman can't is to pee their name in the snow.

Well, I'd say that I can, but i'd have to either take off my pants or lift up my dress, and then I'd have to shuffle around quite a bit, and I'd probably end up peeing on my shoes anyway, but...