Misconceptions

[TraderJack]

In that case: Where is the evidence Mary DIDN'T assume into heaven?

There you go again terry, trying to use that old trick of insisting someone prove a negative.

You see terry, God commanded us to "test the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world"(1 John 5:1).

So you see terry, Rome claims that God spoke through the pope when declaring the dogma of the assumption of Mary.

Rome also claims that it was taught from the very beginning.

Yet, the Apostles never, ever taught such a thing, nor did the early church fathers. No evidence whatsoever for it, except, when forgeries of the Gnostics were being circulated that taught it.

So, terry, it is up to YOU and Rome to prove your claims and prove that God actually spoke through the pope when declaring a dogma that was never taught by the Apostles or early church fathers.

Or, admit that God was not speaking through the pope, and that the pope was presuming to speak for God when in fact he was not.

 

[sunlover1]

how much of our "rebukes" are the action of the Holy Spirit speaking in us versus our human passions being inflamed ?

Amen, another topic altogether though.
We can each only answer for ourselves in that one.
I know that you're not guilty.
I've gotten bent a couple times with tlf over "ss".
Dont know if it was righteous anger of the Holy Spirit,
or my flesh.
Got smart with another poster here over the same subject. (You know who u are)

But all in all, I very much enjoy this place and the folks
that I discuss with. I've grown to love each that I've
been blessed to get to know.

I think we'd ALL be surprised at who's lips utter our
names during prayer offline.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

But you seem to think what Jesus said was a bad thing.

Sunlover, no that is not true. I never said that what Jesus said was wrong in any way. I just said that ONLY He has the authority and right to say such things...and that we don't. Only He can call someone a hypocrite without becoming a hypocrite Himself.

Jesus loved those men, died for them, wanted to help not
only them, but those they were infecting with their disease, no?
Sometimes truth SOUNDS harsh. But it's still love.
We must speak truth if we love someone!!

Yes I agree! But I do not see this love in the words of people who criticize Catholics. I'm sorry. I don't mean people who just disagree with some Catholic doctrines...I mean people who say that Catholics and Orthodox are not Christians and don't know God. Or when people say the Pope isn't saved because they don't like something about him. Only God can judge stuff like that...this is what I meant

And if we see a brother or sister in sin we should help them, with love and compassion, but not judge or criticize them harshly...we must speak the truth with love.

Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. (Colossians 3)

If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent—not to put it too severely. 6The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. 7Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. 9The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes. (2 Cor. 2)

If I see you walking towards a cults doors and I dont
argue it with you, what good am I to you? I can pray for you,
but as James said, what good is that without the works?
(wasnt speaking of catholicism)
So this has been a great study for me,
because Im normally not one to speak up,
lest I'm called a fanatic. Where's the boldness
in that attitude?

Sunlover, I agree with you here, if you see a Christian falling away from faith, you should try and help them. What I meant is that there is a right and a wrong way to tell them...we should still speak with compassion, or else they would go even further away from the truth.

What I meant in my previous post was that if we see a hypocrite, for example, we can't just come up to them and say "you're a hypocrite and God will judge you..you don't love God". I know Jesus said this to some of the Pharisees, but you see He's allowed to, because He knew their hearts...and He is perfect... but we do not have that right. We should pray for them and maybe talk to them, but as sinners to other sinners, not as judges.

These passages have to do with teaching, doctrine,
turning from the truth etc.

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season;
reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine;
but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers,
having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth,
and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions,
do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry



12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said,
The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply,
that they may be sound in the faith;
14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men,
that turn from the truth.


20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels,
that thou observe these things without preferring one before another,
doing nothing by partiality.

15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. ​

rebuke ​

• Strong's Greek #1651
  1651 ἐλέγχω [elegcho /el·eng·kho/] v.
  1 to convict, refute, confute.
  1a generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted.
  1b by conviction to bring to the light, to expose.
  2 to find fault with, correct.
  2a by word.
  2a1 to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove.
  2a2 to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation.
  2b by deed.
  2b1 to chasten, to punish.​

As with all things, we need to follow GOD's leading. He knows when and how and who is deceived.
But from what I see here on the boards, many of us
are deceived, or we'd speak the same language imo.

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever.
 Amen.​

​

There is nothing wrong with judging doctrines. I just think it's wrong to judge someone else's relationship with God and say that they don't know Him, etc.

peace

monica

 

[Thekla]

I know that you're not guilty.

and I disagree !

But all in all, I very much enjoy this place and the folks
that I discuss with. I've grown to love each that I've
been blessed to get to know.

I think we'd ALL be surprised at who's lips utter our
names during prayer offline.

indeed !

 

[Catholic Christian]

There you go again terry, trying to use that old trick of insisting someone prove a negative. You see terry, God commanded us to "test the spirits to see if they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world"(1 John 5:1). So you see terry, Rome claims that God spoke through the pope when declaring the dogma of the assumption of Mary. Rome also claims that it was taught from the very beginning. Yet, the Apostles never, ever taught such a thing, nor did the early church fathers. No evidence whatsoever for it, except, when forgeries of the Gnostics were being circulated that taught it. So, terry, it is up to YOU and Rome to prove your claims and prove that God actually spoke through the pope when declaring a dogma that was never taught by the Apostles or early church fathers. Or, admit that God was not speaking through the pope, and that the pope was presuming to speak for God when in fact he was not.

Haven't you figured out yet that I don't take your posts seriously?

 

[TraderJack]

Trader Jack,

Vatican II ~was~ admitting to errors in Dogma.

Really?

What formal dogmas did Vatican II admit were in error?

If you do not understand that, then you either do not know ANYTHING about Vatican II or you don't understand the definition of dogma.

No, I am afraid you are confused and have a misunderstanding of what constitutes "formal dogma".

And you cannot possibly get more formal than Rome did at Vatican II. The very reason the Catholics CALLED Vatican II's council into place was to correct Catholic Doctorine. (Which IS what dogma means.)

No, you need to do some more study, there is a distinct difference in Roman terminology between "doctrine", "dogma" and "formal dogma".

As a matter of fact, the present pope has affirmed the "infallible" formal dogmas of Lateran IV and Unam Sanctum, whereby one cannot be saved unless subject to the pope of Rome, and has affirmed the formal dogmas of Trent condemning Protestants.

I am afraid you are terribly misinformed.

 

[TraderJack]

Haven't you figured out yet that I don't take your posts seriously?

So, with that an $3.65 you can get a cup of coffee in any Starbucks in America.

Regardless of what you think, your misconceptions and horrible illogic, and use of old rhetorical tricks such as insisting someone prove a negative have been corrected.

You may thank me now.

 

[Epiphanygirl]

Sunlover, no that is not true. I never said that what Jesus said was wrong in any way. I just said that ONLY He has the authority and right to say such things...and that we don't. Only He can call someone a hypocrite without becoming a hypocrite Himself.



Yes I agree! But I do not see this love in the words of people who criticize Catholics. I'm sorry. I don't mean people who just disagree with some Catholic doctrines...I mean people who say that Catholics and Orthodox are not Christians and don't know God. Or when people say the Pope isn't saved because they don't like something about him. Only God can judge stuff like that...this is what I meant

And if we see a brother or sister in sin we should help them, with love and compassion, but not judge or criticize them harshly...we must speak the truth with love.

Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. (Colossians 3)

If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent—not to put it too severely. 6The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. 7Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. 9The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes. (2 Cor. 2)



Sunlover, I agree with you here, if you see a Christian falling away from faith, you should try and help them. What I meant is that there is a right and a wrong way to tell them...we should still speak with compassion, or else they would go even further away from the truth.

What I meant in my previous post was that if we see a hypocrite, for example, we can't just come up to them and say "you're a hypocrite and God will judge you..you don't love God". I know Jesus said this to some of the Pharisees, but you see He's allowed to, because He knew their hearts...and He is perfect... but we do not have that right. We should pray for them and maybe talk to them, but as sinners to other sinners, not as judges.



There is nothing wrong with judging doctrines. I just think it's wrong to judge someone else's relationship with God and say that they don't know Him, etc.

peace

monica

Monica, what a beautiful heart you must truly have to be so kind in what you have said.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I accept his apologies.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

how much of our "rebukes" are the action of the Holy Spirit speaking in us versus our human passions being inflamed ?

I think often when we rebuke others we are in danger of falling into sin ourselves...especially pride and anger. That is why I think we should be careful with this, and if we see a brother or sister in sin, we should pray for them first and try to forgive them, and remember our own sinfulness..and only then, speak the truth (with love).

 

[TraderJack]

There is nothing wrong with judging doctrines. I just think it's wrong to judge someone else's relationship with God and say that they don't know Him, etc.

peace

monica

Well Monica, what so many of the hyper sensitive types misread is that when we scrutinize, test, and oppose specific dogmas and practices of the Roman religion, we are not judging the individual Roman at all, but are testing the claims by the heirarchy of the Roman religion, and oppose those that are false.

But the hyper sensitive don't make that connection, instead it is taken personally. If they actually read what is said in context, maybe they wouldn't make that mistake.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Christ said the greatest commandment is to love God.
I don't know any Catholics that don't.

Christ said the second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor.

Do the names Francis Bernardone, Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu or Thomas Becket mean anything to you?

Are you familiar with Catholic Family Services? Catholic Chairites USA? Catholic Health and Human Services? St. Jude's Hospital?

Christ said people will come shouting that they preached in His name and He will turn them away saying He never knew them because when He was hungry, in prison, and sick, those people ignored His need. He said that others, who took care of the hungry, the sick, the poor, and the imprisoned, would sit on His right side in heaven.

Again - I am not saying that I agree with everything the Catholic Church teaches. If I did, I would just convert.

However, the fact is, the Catholics DO teach that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of the one true God, Jehovah. That all men have sinned, and need the forgiveness of God. That Christ is the way, the truth and the life. They teach obedience to God, and to Christ. They teach that the bible is God's holy word.

They do their best to ACT on God's holy word.

So, for you to list them with Muslims and Hindu's is the epitome of unChristian behavior.

totally agree with you sister

 

[TraderJack]

Exactly

Take a look at this everyone:

Apologies
Over the later parts of his reign, John Paul II made several apologies to various peoples that had been wronged by some members of the Catholic Church through the years. Even before he became the Pope, he was a prominent supporter of initiatives like the Letter of Reconciliation of the Polish Bishops to the German Bishops from 1965. During his reign as a Pope, he publicly made apologies for over 100 of these wrongdoings, including:

• The legal process on the Italian scientist and philosopher Galileo Galilei, himself a devout Catholic, around 1633 (31 October 1992).
• Catholics' involvement with the African slave trade (9 August 1993).
• The Church Hierarchy's role in burnings at the stake and the religious wars that followed the Protestant Reformation (May 1995, in the Czech Republic).
• The injustices committed against women, the violation of women's rights and for the historical denigration of women (10 July 1995, in a letter to "every woman").
• Inactivity and silence of some Catholics during the Holocaust (16 March 1998).
• For the execution of Jan Hus in 1415 (18 December 1999 in Prague). When John Paul II visited Prague in 1990s, he requested experts in this matter "to define with greater clarity the position held by Jan Hus among the Church's reformers, and acknowledged that "independently of the theological convictions he defended, Hus cannot be denied integrity in his personal life and commitment to the nation's moral education." It was another step in building a bridge between Catholics and Protestants.
• For the sins of some Catholics throughout the ages for violating "the rights of ethnic groups and peoples, and [for showing] contempt for their cultures and religious traditions". (12 March 2000, during a public Mass of Pardons).
• For the sins of the Crusader attack on Constantinople in 1204. (4 May 2001, to the Patriarch of Constantinople).

That is very sweet.

Now let Rome formally renounce Lateran IV, Unam Sanctum, Trent and Vatican I.

 

[TraderJack]

Are you familiar with Catholic Family Services? Catholic Chairites USA? Catholic Health and Human Services? St. Jude's Hospital?

Mormons have marvelous charities as well. Does that make them true?


.

However, the fact is, the Catholics DO teach that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of the one true God, Jehovah. That all men have sinned, and need the forgiveness of God. That Christ is the way, the truth and the life. They teach obedience to God, and to Christ. They teach that the bible is God's holy word.

They do their best to ACT on God's holy word.

So, Mormons say the same things. Does that make them true as well?

So, for you to list them with Muslims and Hindu's is the epitome of unChristian behavior.

I see, so now you are the judge. I thought you advocated not judging?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Monica, what a beautiful heart you must truly have to be so kind in what you have said.

if there is any kindness it is all from God my sister I only hope that one day He would give me a heart like His. God bless you

monica

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Well Monica, what so many of the hyper sensitive types misread is that when we scrutinize, test, and oppose specific dogmas and practices of the Roman religion, we are not judging the individual Roman at all, but are testing the claims by the heirarchy of the Roman religion, and oppose those that are false.

But the hyper sensitive don't make that connection, instead it is taken personally. If they actually read what is said in context, maybe they wouldn't make that mistake.

I was not referring to all posts here, but to the several articles that were posted about the Pope not being saved, etc. These articles were not written by anyone here.. thankfully.. but they were about Catholics not Catholicism.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

That is very sweet.

Now let Rome formally renounce Lateran IV, Unam Sanctum, Trent and Vatican I.

You mean things that you disagree with? LOL sorry ..joke.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi. So why does the Roman Pope still try to proclaim himself Vicar of Christ to the world?

I see where Monica acknowledged my acceptance of the Roman Pontif's apologies but how come this wasn't addressed?

 

[Catholic Christian]

Mormons have marvelous charities as well. Does that make them true?

You're the one that keeps saying "Judge them by their fruits". Now that the fruits are shown to you, you duck and dodge.

After the US Government, the Catholic Church is the largest health care provider in the US. This is a result of Catholic culture, and those "Dark Ages" you love to misrepresent. Which hospitals does YOUR sect run?

 

[Catholic Christian]

Hi. So why does the Roman Pope still try to proclaim himself Vicar of Christ to the world?

becuase he is?