Misconceptions

[Catholic Christian]

...the declaration above was an "infallible" declaration spoken by the Holy Spirit through Boniface VIII

name the document please, and I will see if its infallible

 

[Rick Otto]

terry, again, the name of the document is, "Unam Sanctum".
I"m disappointed you are so loyal & yet are unfamiliar with what you're being so loyal to.

 

[TraderJack]

What the pope is really thinking: "those pesky EO folks, let 'em eat their hearts out , snicker. I will never ever be unseated from my Throne of Glory, becuz I have da force"!!!!!!

Wow, I've seen that pic before, but not until now did I notice the striking resemblance of Ratzinger to the hooded "Emperor".

 

[Catholic Christian]

terry, again, the name of the document is, "Unam Sanctum".
I"m disappointed you are so loyal & yet are unfamiliar with what you're being so loyal to.

Gee, I'm sorry that I don't know every one of the millions of documents written over 2000 years. How irresponsible of me.

Oh, and thanks to whoever just reported me.

 

[TraderJack]

terry, again, the name of the document is, "Unam Sanctum".
I"m disappointed you are so loyal & yet are unfamiliar with what you're being so loyal to.

von Dollinger was a prophet:

"In future every Roman Catholic when asked why he believes this or that can and may give but the one answer: I believe or reject it because the infallible pope has bidden it to be believed or rejected"----Declarations and Letters, pg. 101

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Gee, I'm sorry that I don't know every one of the millions of documents written over 2000 years. How irresponsible of me.

Oh, and thanks to whoever just reported me.

Is that your first? I got sent to jail 3 times already

Edit to add:In fact it appears I have been the only one in there this year LOL.......

http://christianforums.com/f810

 

[TraderJack]

name the document please, and I will see if its infallible

Go here terry:

http://www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/tradition-eens.htm

From that Roman Catholic site:

*** INFALLIBLE ***: Ex cathedra: "We declare, we say, we define, and we pronounce that it is wholly necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. The Lateran, November 14th, in our eighth year. As a perpetual memorial of this matter." (Unam Sanctam, A.D. 1302)

Unam Sanctum reiterated what Lateran IV had already pronounced by a so called, "infallible instrument", both a council and ex cathedra papal proclamation.

Of course, we know neither are from God.

 

[Catholic Christian]

Hello brothers and sisters..

I've been reading these threads for a while..and I've noticed that there is a lot of hatred for "traditional" forms of Christianity, especially Catholicism. I don't really understand this. Also, I've noticed that "traditional" Christians, such as Catholics and Orthodox, are often accused of believing in salvation by works..that we are justified by our works before God.

This is a serious misunderstanding. No one believes that we are justified by works. We ALL believe that we are saved by Christ, because of His death on the Cross, by grace. What "traditional" Christians say is that faith is not just intellectual agreement (even the demons believe..), but an active love and obedience to Christ. Faith includes and leads to good works...
Remember, this is perfectly Biblical. The Bible tells us that faith without works is dead, and in James 2 it says that we are not saved by faith alone!

Yes we are justified entirely by grace, but both faith and works are involved in our acceptance of it!! Just because "traditional" Christians don't believe in "faith alone"..doesn't mean that we don't believe in "grace alone", or that faith is unimportant, or that Christ's sacrifice is not enough.

Here is a website that has really helped me understand some things:

http://www.newman99.com/17.html

I ask everyone to please try to understand the doctrines before criticizing them.

God bless

love,
monica

This is what the thread is about

 

[TraderJack]

Go here terry:

http://www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/tradition-eens.htm

From that Roman Catholic site:

[/font]


Unam Sanctum reiterated what Lateran IV had already pronounced by a so called, "infallible instrument", both a council and ex cathedra papal proclamation.

Of course, we know neither are from God.

Yes, you see, God has never, ever laid a condition of being subject to the pope of Rome as a neccessary condition for salvation, neither in Scripture or the "Tradition" of the ECFs which Rome has deviated from and added to the Gospel things that God has never said.


1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

 

[Rick Otto]

This is what the thread is about

No Problem, I'll start a new one just for you so you can straighten us out without a derail.
Here it is:
http://christianforums.com/t6842834-unam-sanctum-terryobrian-speaks.html

 

[ScottBot]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
Hi. So why does the Roman Pope still try to proclaim himself Vicar of Christ to the world?






Nahhhhhhhhh, the Holy Spirit is.

popes are usurpers of the Title of the Holy Spirit, ie-Vicar of Christ, so said Tertullian.

You obviously have no idea what a vicar is. The Holy Spirit cannot be the Vicar of Christ, because a vicar is someone who is authorized to act in the stead of another, a substitute. If the Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ, it means that he is a substitute for Christ, and since the Holy Spirit is one in being with the Father and the Son, he is a substitute of neither, since He is by nature co-eternal with them.

 

[ScottBot]

Go here terry:

http://www.romancatholicism.org/jansenism/tradition-eens.htm

From that Roman Catholic site:

Unam Sanctum reiterated what Lateran IV had already pronounced by a so called, "infallible instrument", both a council and ex cathedra papal proclamation.

Of course, we know [the proper reading should be "in my narrow opinion"] neither are from God.

Define "we". It obviously doesn't include the 1.2 billion Catholics of the world.

 

[sunlover1]

You obviously have no idea what a vicar is. The Holy Spirit cannot be the Vicar of Christ, because a vicar is someone who is authorized to act in the stead of another, a substitute. If the Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ, it means that he is a substitute for Christ, and since the Holy Spirit is one in being with the Father and the Son, he is a substitute of neither, since He is by nature co-eternal with them.

So why would we need a substitute again??


7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth;
It is expedient for you that I go away:
for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you;
but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reproveb the world of sin,
and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
for he shall not speak of himself;
but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:
and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine,
and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine:
therefore said I, that he shall take of mine,
and shall shew it unto you. http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=6795364#_ftn2
b reprove: or, convince

http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=6795364#_ftnref2

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You obviously have no idea what a vicar is. The Holy Spirit cannot be the Vicar of Christ, because a vicar is someone who is authorized to act in the stead of another, a substitute. If the Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ, it means that he is a substitute for Christ, and since the Holy Spirit is one in being with the Father and the Son, he is a substitute of neither, since He is by nature co-eternal with them.

HUH? I never implied that I was talking about the Roman Pontif.

 

[ScottBot]

So why would we need a substitute again??


7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth;
It is expedient for you that I go away:
for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you;
but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reproveb the world of sin,
and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
for he shall not speak of himself;
but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:
and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine,
and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine:
therefore said I, that he shall take of mine,
and shall shew it unto you. http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=6795364#_ftn2
b reprove: or, convince

http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=6795364#_ftnref2

Why did Christ give His authority to forgive sin, cast out demons, etc..., if He didn't intend for the apostles to act in His stead?

 

[ScottBot]

HUH? I never implied that I was talking about the Roman Pontif.

I probably quoted the wrong person. I meant to quote AugustineWasCalvinist who keeps implying that the Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ. Pull out that cool bible quote thingie and go get 'em.

 

[TraderJack]

You obviously have no idea what a vicar is.

I know what it meant originally. I also know rome's revised version to suit it's claims. Rome is very good at redefining things, creating forgeries and making things seem to be other than what they are.

If the Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ, it means that he is a substitute for Christ

Yeah, we know that is how Rome came to the twisted conclusion that the pope is Christ on earth.

and since the Holy Spirit is one in being with the Father and the Son, he is a substitute of neither, since He is by nature co-eternal with them.

Faulty logic and greatly in err of the Scriptures.

John 14;

16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.


26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Jesus is Present in the Holy Spirit. You see they are One in Essence and Perfect Unity. The Paraclete comes as the stand-in for Christ.

 

[sunlover1]

Why did Christ give His authority to forgive sin, cast out demons, etc..., if He didn't intend for the apostles to act in His stead?

WE're all supposed to be AS Him.


17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 1http://christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=6795364#_ftn2

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=A V O;4You obviously have no idea what a vicar is.

You are projecting yourself onto the other you can't identify.

The Holy Spirit cannot be the Vicar of Christ, because a vicar is someone who is authorized to act in the stead of another, a substitute. If the Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ, it means that he is a substitute for Christ, and since the Holy Spirit is one in being with the Father and the Son, he is a substitute of neither, since He is by nature co-eternal with them.

Realy.
Then please condescend to explain these...
Joh 14:16 - And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 15:26 -But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 16:7 - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

 

[Catholic Christian]

terry, again, the name of the document is,

Unam Sanctum.
I"m disappointed you are so loyal & yet are unfamiliar with what you're being so loyal to.

Okay: Unam Sanctum is NOT an infallible statement, as I suspected. It is a Papal Bull, and I can't recall one of the countless Papal Bulls that are infallible documents. So, a certain person who thinks he knows it all, is wrong.. ..AGAIN.

For a dogmatic definition to be made by the pope, the document involved has to unambiguously state that the definition is intended to be binding on all Catholics everywhere and for all time: It requires an explicit statement of universality and a statement that the Holy Father intends to make such a statement.

Vatican II explained the doctrine of infallibility as follows: "Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they can nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly. (Lumen Gentium 25). Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope "enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals."