Misconceptions

[Rhamiel]

Wow, consider that a blessing.
I was teased on the playground,
called an idol worshipper and pagan.
And I had NO idea whatsoever WHAT
they meant...

I was one of the small handful of
catholics in that school system...

People need to raise their children better.

I remeber very similar things happening to me in middle school and yesterday in GT lol,
yea kids can suck sometimes

 

[MoNiCa4316]

GT is a lot like middle school.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

That is a nice thought, and would be super
if it were true, but it's not.
Actually, some people do believe just that.
You obviously dont know MY friends
And I dont live in a catholic area, so I'm
not speaking of catholics... but protestants.

I know that some people do believe that, probably from every church...what I meant is that there's no Christian denomination that teaches that as a doctrine. Sorry I should have phrased it differently.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Wow, consider that a blessing.
I was teased on the playground,
called an idol worshipper and pagan.
And I had NO idea whatsoever WHAT
they meant...

I was one of the small handful of
catholics in that school system...

People need to raise their children better.

Indeed

 

[BeforeTheFoundation]

Wait... "liturgical Calvinist"? Please don't take any offense, but is that possible?

It is sad. If anything people should be accused of not being catholic (note small c ) rather than being accused of being Catholic.

I agree 100%. And yes, it is possible, just not easy.

 

[Melethiel]

There are stereotypes and misconceptions on all sides, unfortunately. I have the dubious honor of being Evangelical Catholic (Lutheran), and thus managing to tick Catholics, Orthodox, AND Protestants off because we won't fit into a nice little box.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

There are stereotypes and misconceptions on all sides, unfortunately. I have the dubious honor of being Evangelical Catholic (Lutheran), and thus managing to tick Catholics, Orthodox, AND Protestants off because we won't fit into a nice little box.

don't worry God can't be put into a nice little box either lol.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Hello brothers and sisters..

I've been reading these threads for a while..and I've noticed that there is a lot of hatred for "traditional" forms of Christianity, especially Catholicism. I don't really understand this. Also, I've noticed that "traditional" Christians, such as Catholics and Orthodox, are often accused of believing in salvation by works..that we are justified by our works before God.

This is a serious misunderstanding. No one believes that we are justified by works. We ALL believe that we are saved by Christ, because of His death on the Cross, by grace. What "traditional" Christians say is that faith is not just intellectual agreement (even the demons believe..), but an active love and obedience to Christ. Faith includes and leads to good works...
Remember, this is perfectly Biblical. The Bible tells us that faith without works is dead, and in James 2 it says that we are not saved by faith alone!

Yes we are justified entirely by grace, but both faith and works are involved in our acceptance of it!! Just because "traditional" Christians don't believe in "faith alone"..doesn't mean that we don't believe in "grace alone", or that faith is unimportant, or that Christ's sacrifice is not enough.

Here is a website that has really helped me understand some things:

http://www.newman99.com/17.html

I ask everyone to please try to understand the doctrines before criticizing them.

God bless

love,
monica

This is so true. The second that someone advises that we be obedient and do the things that God wants us to do that person gets accused of teaching salvation by works. The criticizers do not make a effort to understand the poster but to undermine the importance of works.

 

[simonthezealot]

Why do you guys think that nearly everyone understands your salvation message as works based?

 

[Rhamiel]

Why do you guys think that nearly everyone understands your salvation message as works based?

the power of propaganda and old prejeduces mixed with a lack of apologetic work from Catholic and Orthodox, I am glad to say that Catholics and Orthodox are getting better at addressing such falsehoods

 

[Thekla]

Why do you guys think that nearly everyone understands your salvation message as works based?

because their own understanding is the filter through which they "understand" the practices and beliefs of others; similar to the old adage --wherever you go, there you are

it requires not a little effort to overcome one's preconceived notions
in order to truly try to understand something that is "other"

 

[simonthezealot]

the power of propaganda and old prejeduces mixed with a lack of apologetic work from Catholic and Orthodox, I am glad to say that Catholics and Orthodox are getting better at addressing such falsehoods

I've always considered your works to be...Baptism, mass, penance confession those types of things that without em your salvation is doomed, hence something beyond faith on your part...Are you telling me your church does not deem them necessary unto salvation?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

the power of propaganda and old prejeduces mixed with a lack of apologetic work from Catholic and Orthodox, I am glad to say that Catholics and Orthodox are getting better at addressing such falsehoods

Yep. That wily little "devil" is a cwafty one.

John 8:44 `Ye out of a father, the Devil/diabolou <1228> are, and the desires/epiqumiaV <1939> of the father of ye, ye are willing to be doing.
That one a man-killer was from beginning and in the truth not has stood, that not is truth in him.
Whenever he may be talking, the falsehood out of the own/P he is talking, that a falsifier he is and the father of it.

Revelation 20:10 and the Devil/diaboloV <1228>, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of the fire and of brimstone/qeiou <2303>, the-where also the wild-beast and the false prophet.
And they shall be being tormented/basanisqhsontai <928> (5701) of-day and of-night--into the ages of the ages.

 

[Rhamiel]

Baptism is a work, but the worker is not man but the Holy Spirit
I thought by works based salvation you were refering to some sort of merit based system that some people mistake as the teachings of the Church, not the works of God

 

[simonthezealot]

Baptism is a work, but the worker is not man but the Holy Spirit
I thought by works based salvation you were refering to some sort of merit based system that some people mistake as the teachings of the Church, not the works of God

I need to clarify a couple things...
Is justification a process?
Is Grace infused or imputed?

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I just thought of this verse:

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
Philippians 2:12-13

I think our good works are also the result of grace, not just faith...so saying that we 'need works' doesn't mean that we're somehow earning our salvation...it only means that good works is one of the ways that God's grace is manifested. Of course our works would never be enough, and neither would our faith, of course... it all goes back to the Cross in the end.

peace

monica

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I've always considered your works to be...Baptism, mass, penance confession those types of things that without em your salvation is doomed, hence something beyond faith on your part...Are you telling me your church does not deem them necessary unto salvation?

Baptism, Mass, Penance, Confession...are not our works, but God's works, as Rhamiel said just like faith.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I need to clarify a couple things...
Is justification a process?
Is Grace infused or imputed?

Catholics and EO believe that justification is a process and grace is infused, but that we become 'new creations' through baptism... of course faith plays a very important (crucial) part as well....we just define faith as something 'active', not merely passive.

Infused grace basically means that Christ's righteousness is not just attributed to us, but becomes part of us...we are transformed... (please correct me if I got this wrong).

Justification being a process has to do with all the stuff in the Bible about persevering to the end.

(I know I've simplified it..I'm not a theologian, lol...most likely others can describe it all better)

peace

monica

 

[simonthezealot]

I just thought of this verse:

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.
Philippians 2:12-13

Minor point to note Philippians is about working OUT and not ON, like mining a diamond out of a mine you OWN.

 

[simonthezealot]

Catholics and EO believe that justification is a process

How is it a process? in what way?